I commend you on your enthusiasm on this very intense project, but what will this cartridge do that the .375 RUM won't?

buffybr,
Intense? Nah, just plodding along at un-un-improving the .375 RUM.
It corrects some imperfections of the .375 RUM design, and it did so before the existence of the .375 RUM. Saeed's original version was forerunner to the .375 RUM.
Instead of a faithful copy ...
... Remington had to change it to a slightly bigger case head that does not fit the Magnum Mauser box as well as the 404 Jeffery case head
... Remington then had to rebate the rim to smaller than 404 Jeffery rim
... Remington then had to shorten the neck
... Remington then had to increase the shoulder angle a wee bit
... Remington then had to increase the brass length by .030"
... Remington then had to make RUM brass that is thicker and of inferior composition vs. the Norma quality
... For all the un-improvements they gained about 1 grain of case capacity over the .375/404J of Saeed.

Possibly, my only variation from Saeed's cartridge is the throat. His is unknown.
.375 Remington UltraMag throat: 0.1750"-length X 0.3761"-diameter X 1*0'-leade
.375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012: 0.3700"-length X 0.3756"-diameter X 1*7'-leade

Original .375/404 Jeffery throat is cosmic squirrel top secret still.
I chose to duplicate the Manson .375Wby throat, which has been capable of "point-ones" (near 0.1-MOA) 3-shotgroups at 100 yards.

Also, one more unknown, possible variation:
Saeed's chamber neck diameter is specified as .408", engraved on the rifle, in the manner of benchresters with pet wildcats.
My neck-2 is .408", my neck-1 is .409".
It is unknown whether Saeed used .408" for neck-1 as well as neck-2,
But my neck taper (slop) of .001" can only aid reliability in the chambering and extracting phases. Should not hurt accuracy.
The loaded ammo is .405" at neck-1 and neck-2, whether Saeed loads it or I load it.

I'll have to send to Saeed a set of dies from Hornady as thanks, assuming Hornady still exports.
The dies will produce ammo spec-ed for .405" neck diameter, loaded ammo, compatible with a .408" chamber-neck diameter.
If the cartridge case body specs gleaned from Saeed here are true,
then dies for the ".375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012" aka ".375/404 JS" will work for his rifles.

This one is the most perfect cartridge in the universe.
It goes that extra parsec of reliability for any functionality.

The fire-formed brass and specs were mailed to Hornady yesterday.
First rifle was completed by Rusty McGee--Gunsmith today, looks like it has accuracy potential.
Only accurate rifles are interesting:



Brockman Stud:
Interesting to note that the CZ Kevlar stock has aluminum bedding endoskeleton going all the way to forend tip,
Rusty had to machine out the aluminum and drill and tap for 4 machine screws to bed the Brockman stud.
The wood screws that came with the Brockman stud were discarded.



Simple, good filler screw, took a minute on Rusty's lathe to shape a standard socket-head screw to fit threaded hole in forearm,
and preserve bipod mounting stud capability:



Simple barrel stamping, no waiting on engraving:

"R MCGEE"
(and shorthand caliber designation)
"375/404 JS"

In my experience, such stampings do not hurt barrel accuracy at all.



The ribbed 375 H&H magazine box was removed from this early 1990s AHR CZ 550 Magnum action (no billboard),
and replaced with a smooth-sided 458 WIN box, reinforced in front also, by Rusty McGee.
It holds 4 down with room to spare, adding the Wisner "Plus-One" floorplate, could make it 5 down.
Plus one in the chamber makes it a Six-Shooter.







The stainless Lilja barrel and GunKoted action could get a matching finish: Matte silver or black?
That can wait until I get through wringing it out for accuracy.
Might even try the 3-pound-7-ounce King Ugly Rifle scope rig on it first.
Dies from Hornady Custom Dies, Ben Syring will be required to wring it out.
Fire forming brass for plinking loads until then.

It will have a matching back-up Leupold 2.5X-8X scope, switchable by QD-QD lever: KUR

Dry weight of rifle: 8-lbs-14-oz. and a bit muzzle heavy.
Barrel is 26" from breech face to muzzle crown,
heavy No.6 contour lightened by fluting.
Wonder where I got that inspiration?

Weight with scope and rings (Leupold 2.5X-8X and standard CZ rings): 10 pounds even, and perfectly balanced on front action screw.
It feels lighter than it is.
It is about 3/4-pound lighter than a .375 H&H CZ 550 Magnum "Hogback" Euro Lux,
and more than a pound lighter than the same .375 H&H rifle with "American-Style" walnut stock from the factory.

3-1/4# trigger pull (Timney) and breaks crisply with zero creep.
Thanks Rusty McGee--Gunsmith.
Whipped together in 12 days, after parts were in shop.
Rusty McGunsmith!

Took me 12 years of thinking about it.
12 days in shop in 2012.
Fantastic!
My condolences to others still waiting on parts,
but it does help to get all the parts together yourself and deliver in a batch.
Parts is parts.
Parts suppliers can be turtles when hares are desired.

This one is 1:12" twist.
Next one will be 1:10" PAC-NOR No.3 sporter, on an FN Mauser 98, with Wiebe bottom metal supposed to hold 3-down with 500 Jeffery.
Rusty will extend that box from 3.5" to 3.6" length. It has plenty of thickness of metal in front. No need to reinforce after milling out 0.1" internally.
The CZ allows Walterhog bullet nose length, 3.8" box.

Awesome RIP!! Well done.

I am extremely impressed by Rusty McGunsmith's turnaround time! Unheard of in any vicinity of these parts.

Can't wait to see how it shoots.

Love that filler screw and how it sits flush! Two thumbs up

Canuck,
I thought you might like that filler screw.
It was not there when I went to pick up the rifle.
A detail I had overlooked again.
Rusty grabbed a standard screw with proper threads, from a shop bin, and put it on the lathe for about a minute of freehanding,
after a glance at the hole needing filling.
Voila! A new style of filler screw.
No alteration of the stock hole.
Can still use the standard Uncle Mike's stud in that hole.
I need to get some more of those, to replace the ones I made for myself in the past.

Now there is a wildcat I can live with. Lets hear about the accuracy while you are waiting for the real dies.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Now there is a wildcat I can live with. Lets hear about the accuracy while you are waiting for the real dies.

Will require dies for accuracy, other than fireforming plinker testing.
At least I got some fireformed brass sent to Hornady before the rifle was finished,
by firing into a dirt mound behind Rusty's shop.
We are trying.
Or at least I am trying Rusty, again.
But Saeed has done pretty well with his.
You can too.

Shitfire son, that is a handsome rifle! Congrats for seeing this through, it's a neat project! Look forward to holes in targets and numbers on chronos!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Shitfire son, that is a handsome rifle! Congrats for seeing this through, it's a neat project! Look forward to holes in targets and numbers on chronos!

"Shit fire! Save matches!"

I used to go with a girl that said that.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Canuck,
I thought you might like that filler screw.
It was not there when I went to pick up the rifle.
A detail I had overlooked again.
Rusty grabbed a standard screw with proper threads, from a shop bin, and put it on the lathe for about a minute of freehanding,
after a glance at the hole needing filling.
Voila! A new style of filler screw.
No alteration of the stock hole.
Can still use the standard Uncle Mike's stud in that hole.
I need to get some more of those, to replace the ones I made for myself in the past.

You can be assured that I will be looking to replace the one on mine with a McGee Filler Screw (or knock-off) at some point!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Now there is a wildcat I can live with. Lets hear about the accuracy while you are waiting for the real dies.

Both my 375/404 still shoot less than an inch at 100 yards with our Walterhog bullets, despite all the abuse they get every year in Africa at the shooting contests.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Now there is a wildcat I can live with. Lets hear about the accuracy while you are waiting for the real dies.

Both my 375/404 still shoot less than an inch at 100 yards with our Walterhog bullets, despite all the abuse they get every year in Africa at the shooting contests.

Saeed Ol' Pal,
I know all this must just bore you to death, but I just must recreate the wheel here just to show that even a Kentuckian can do it justice.
Hence this is JUSTIFIED.

The one dummy round I have from your empty/fired case handed over in Tanzania chambers in my rifle,
even though I mucked around with sizing the neck and seating a Barnes TSX in it to Walterhog nose length, using 9.5x70 Tornado dies.

If Hornady will export, and you will accept, I shall send you a set of Hornady dies to see if they size your brass to fit your rifle, please?

Saeed and Ron, I'm just going on memory here, but weren't the "Originals" built on Dakota actions?

And were they 375 length or 416 Rigby length actions?

Just curious.

Ongwe,
I can answer that.
Yes, you are correct. Saeed's two original rifles were on Dakota 76 African actions, .416 Rigby length, 404 Jeffery boltface.
Has to have about 3.75" box length to fit the long-nosed Walterhog bullet, even though brass length is only 2.820" max.
A 3.6" box (as for .375 H&H) will not work with the Walterhog bullet.
Of course it would work through a 3.6" box if "normal-nose-length" bullets were used, as with the .375 H&H.

Other questions if Saeed should choose to happen by here:

1. What is the date of origin of Saeed's first .375/404 Jeffery? Was it sometime in 1997?

2. The second of Saeed's wunderbuss rifles has a silver action finish to match the stainless barrel.
Did Dakota actually make a stainless M76 African, or is that something like satin nickle finish, or other coating, on the action?

Correction:

Forget the CZ 458 WM box and Dakota follower and spring in a CZ 550 Magnum for .375/404JS.

I have switched back to the ribbed 375 H&H box and standard CZ follower and spring.
It feeds better.
Rusty McGee--Gunsmith will also do some more work on the feed rails whenever I can give him some good ammo, properly sized with proper dies,
to smooth the feeding.
It works well with pointy bullets now, FN solids are next.
Still holds 4-down with the ribbed box, with enough room to CRF a 5th round off the top into the chamber.
No need to do the "Mauser Extractor Side Pinch" to get that 5th round properly chambered.
The CZ rifle will be a 5-Shooter
Even with the smooth-sided box and the Wisner floorplate, 5-down in the box was a jamb fit, not functional.
It won't be a six shooter without a deeper pocket plate.
That would add weight and bulk.
The standard CZ floor plate (a shallow pocket itself) as well as the standard .375 H&H box, follower, and spring are best.
This is a good thing.
Just get a used CZ 550 Magnum in .375 H&H and a new barrel and go to town.
A simple rechamber of the .375 H&H is not possible without setting back the barrel.
The .375 H&H shoulder would mess up the longer neck and sharper, wider shoulder of the .375/404JS.

Though you can get 5-down in the box of a standard CZ 550 Magnum 404 Jeffery, you can get only 4-down with the .375/404JS.
That is due to the slightly lesser case-body taper and broader shoulder of the .375/404JS.

Just wanted to clear up these minor details.
It is all good.
Makes everything simpler and easier for a chicken in every pot, and a .375/404 Jeffery Saeed in every home,
except for the barrel setback thing.
But a new barrel is also a good thing.

Excellent. Thanks for the details RIP.

I haven't ordered dies from Hornady before...do you have a contact, and a price?

Cheers!
Chris

Canuck,

Ben Syring
Custom Reloading Die Designer
Team Hornady Pro Staff
800-338-3220 Ext. 261
bsyring@hornady.com

Ben said the price would be $165 for "FL 2 die set."

The fire formed brass was delivered there last Friday.
Need to give Ben a few days to respond to any email or telephone inquiry.
He is a very busy man.
Hornady Custom Dies have been very very good to me, and many many other folks too.
Crimping could be better, but otherwise perfect.
I can always find a way to crimp better if needed.

Thanks RIP. I will put that info into my "contacts" and will be in touch with Mr Syring.

I have been waiting 13 months (and counting) for some 450 Vincent Long dies from another manufacturer and don't intend to do that again.

Talked to Ben Syring at Hornady yesterday.
Likely 3 months until delivery of dies.
What is left for herding of this cat at the moment?
Test for accuracy with light bullet fire forming loads?

I have 159 cartridges loaded, with Speer 235-grain JSP, Norma 404 Jeffery brass necked down,
F215 primer and thrown charges of either 85.0 grains of W760 or 87.3 grains of IMR-4350.
These were old cans of powder, 20 years old.
I needed to get rid of them,
since I have switched over to Hodgdon.
It will offer adequate, plinking, fireforming and rifle cleaning opportunities.

quote:

I can always find a way to crimp better if needed.

Lee makes custom factory crimps for a little bit o' nuttin... if that's yer thing...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I can always find a way to crimp better if needed.

Lee makes custom factory crimps for a little bit o' nuttin... if that's yer thing...

Good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Talked to Ben Syring at Hornady yesterday.
Likely 3 months until delivery of dies.
What is left for herding of this cat at the moment?
Test for accuracy with light bullet fire forming loads?

I have 159 cartridges loaded, with Speer 235-grain JSP, Norma 404 Jeffery brass necked down,
F215 primer and thrown charges of either 85.0 grains of W760 or 87.3 grains of IMR-4350.
These were old cans of powder, 20 years old.
I needed to get rid of them,
since I have switched over to Hodgdon.
It will offer adequate, plinking, fireforming and rifle cleaning opportunities.

3 months is certainly a tolerable wait. My dies that are 13 months in the waiting have finally shipped.

Canuck,
450 Vincent Long, eh?
Who is making those dies?

Here is some fireforming info for the .375/404JS of 2012.

What was fired,
using 20-year old W760 85.0 grains (average meter, ball powder, "throws well")
and same vintage IMR-4350 87.3 grains, which I ended up weighing because it meters so poorly,
with 235-grain Speer JSP supposed to have BC of .301:



Where fired:



Wind was like this:



And the first two shots, started at 100 yards after eyeball bore sighting at range, first shot to get on paper,
then scope adjusted 28 clicks up,
then second shot in bullseye:



That is a good start for a new scope: Latest version of Leupold VX-3 2.5x-8x.
Nothing special after that.
Also a set of the latest make CZ rings, standard,
seemed prettier than the old ones and might give only a 1.6" sight height above center bore.

Started with the more plentiful W-760 loads.
Shot at 100, 200, and 300 yards, then checked a group at 50 yards.

W-760 85.0 grains:
2812 fps with ES of 43 fps for 5 shots with W-760.
0.458" 3-shot at 50 yards
0.888" 3-shot at 100 yards
2.005" 3-shot at 200 yards
6" X 9" 10-shot pattern at 300 yards,
but they were scatterred around the center of the same target I was shooting at.



IMR-4350 87.3 grains:
2724 fps with ES of 30 fps for 5 shots with IMR-4350.
0.751" 3-shot at 100 yards

I will concentrate on H-4350 Extreme with 300-grainers, soon as I have reloading dies.
These fire forming loads were loaded using 9.5x70 Tornado dies on Norma 404 Jeffery brass, with F215 primers, 3.550" COL.

About 50 more pieces of brass were made today.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Canuck,
450 Vincent Long, eh?
Who is making those dies?

They just arrived in the mail yesterday....

Canuck,
Very nice!
My CH-4D dies for the 400/.395 NE are excellent.
Rusty is ordering 2 sets of 400 Whelen dies, they were in stock, on hand, and member mart says they work well.
What? No snickers over my 300-yard fireforming target?

lol. You are the only guy I know that fireforms at 300 yds. I thought it was a nice pattern...perfect for an African Turkey gun.

Seriously though, I wasn't snickering - that's PDG (and better than anything I've shot) with fireforming loads. Its good that you are getting to play, and get in some quality gun cleaning time while you wait to put together some real loads.

I have CH-4D dies for my 470 Mbogo that I am very happy with. I like dealing with Dave, and I am SUPER glad they are very busy, but life is WAY to short to wait 13 months for dies. I will likely stick to "in-stock" items with them in the future.

Yep,
I have 470 Mbogo dies from CH-4D also, and they too are excellent (except for some rough threads on one of the dies needed some chasing).
Thank both Dave's for getting that one right.

I shall continue plinking at 300 yards for fire forming. It is fun.
Will be even more fun when reloading dies are available for proper ammo, yep.

Hornady notified me of my order numbers on these dies today: 375/404 JS

Just teasing, they are. Dies have not yet shipped.
Maybe this is the "halfway there" signal.

Oh, the shame of it. The father of the .395 caliber taking a back-step to .375 caliber.
Just kidding. Sounds like this one is really taking off.

To Others: On Hornady dies for wildcats, I've had great luck with them, same as RIP.
Max

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Sounds like this one is really taking off.
Max

It will be interesting to see if the Hornacdy Custom dies make ammo that works well in Saeed's rifles ... as well as mine.
That would be two known owners of .375/404 Jeffery Saeed rifles.
Two rifles from the previous century still going strong on Dakota African actions.
Two rifles from 2012, a standard Mauser 98 and a CZ 550 Magnum.
A chicken in every pot, a .375/404 JS in every home.

Ron,

You have done a good job there with the 375.

A lot more classy than the 375 RUM.

Actually there is a thread on 24Hour about no more Rem 700s in 375 RUM.

Mike

Mike,
I am only imitating Saeed's creation that predates the .375 RUM.
Yes, Saeed did a better job of it than Remington.
He is not too talkative about it, no need for bragging.
I would like to get the "borned-on date" for the record,
but so far I can only guess about 1997.
Will check out 24H, thanks.

Ron,

I have been on AR since just after it started, about 1998 or so. As best I cam remember he has the 375/404 for most of that time. He has taken it on safari loaded down to 2600, 2850 and for the last few trips has settled on 2750---375 Wby with top loads.

He has also taken th 375 Lazzeroni at about 3100 with 30s which he got with the double base Vitavouri (spelling) powder.

I think he also said he would be happy with the 338/404 if not for the 375 legal status. As I remember Lazzeroni did not have a 375 so Saeed got them to make him one, the 416 Lazzeroni necked down.

As a side note I believe the Lazzeroi case is several thou smaller than the Rigby and to prevent brass being made from Rigby.

I would not be real confident on Lazzeroni brass and the reason being that the long range crowd (apart from 338/378 Improved) use the 30/416 Improved. One would think if the Lazzeroni brass was OK it would be a lot easier to start with the 338 Lazzeroni then necking 416 Rigby brass.

I notice on your 375/404 you have parallel style Wby freebore.

Correction:
Date of origin of Saeed's 375-404J
was before his 1996 Zimbabwe hunt with Roy Vincent.
See the report of that on the "Hunting" page
Listed near the FAQ page, on the opening page of ARdotcom.
The "Reloading" listing for the 375-404J was last updated July 2000,
and comments there indicate it had already been on four of the annual safaris
with Saeed and friends having killed about 150 head of game with it by then.

Year of origin, 1995?

Could be '95 but '94 rings a bell to me. I have some VHS videos of Saeed's hunts from back then. When I get a chance I'll do some research for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
Could be '95 but '94 rings a bell to me. I have some VHS videos of Saeed's hunts from back then. When I get a chance I'll do some research for you.

Sounding more authoritative there Canuck.
Thanks.
Neither Saeed nor Dwight seem to have kept any records.

Ron,

I stand corrected.

Ron,

This is the earliest reference I found. Cheers

http://www.accuratereloading.com/zim96.html

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:
Ron,

This is the earliest reference I found. Cheers

http://www.accuratereloading.com/zim96.html

Yep, that is what I found also.


"Here are a few photos of our hunt in 1996. We hunted at Chete, which borders Lake Kariba. As usual, we hunted with our friends the Vincents; Roy, Rene and Alan ...

... We were looking for a big croc in the Luzi River. We did not find any this particular day, but saw this impala on the other side of the river. He was facing away at a slight angle about 150 yards. You can see the where the bullet came out right on the point of his left shoulder. I used the 375/404 with the 300 grain Barnes X bullet. Walter was trying to break my trigger finger - forgetting that I am right handed!"





... From my cold, dead hands,
... or when I go blind,
... but I will keep the shotguns if just blind.