.

Which would I pick? Of the three: 416 Ruger. Why?

All three provide reasonable ballistics for a .416" bullet. If I needed more I'd go to a bigger bullet rather than more velocity. So no benefit from the larger Rigby. I prefer a beltless case, so the Ruger over the Remington.

As one cartridge to rule them all, the 416 Rigby has a claim if it is hand loaded.
We have both 416 Rigby's and 338 WM's loaded to about 2825 fps with bullets (350 TTSX and 225 TTSX, respectively) that can be sighted in at 2"/100 yards, drop less than -7" at 300, and less than -21" at 400.

BUT . . .
We don't hunt elk across canyons in Africa.

While most of my hunting life has revolved around cartridges using 2800-3000fps trajectories, I readily admit that such is not necessary for Africa. Keeping things less than a -10" drop at 300 yards works fine.

Using a 2"/100 yard sight-in and a -9" drop at 300 yards, the down field dominator can be handed to . . .
a 416 Ruger in a handy, over-the-counter factory rifle.

A 416 Ruger, shooting the 330 gn GSC bullet, meets that bar. Doesn't get much better than that. Comfort of carry, comfort to shooter, extended reach for antelope, and plenty of diameter and power for in-your-face encounters. A 23" barrel should do 2650fps, with a -9.5" drop at 300 yards, while a 20" barrel might be limited to 2550fps and a -11" drop at 300. Let a practical the hunter choose her druthers. A 350gn TTSX at 2600 may be substituted for the GSC, or even a 300gn TSX at 2600fps for more comfort.

If one wants even more comfort, for the over-75 crowd, then maybe the 416 Ruger with a 20" barrel and shooting the GSC at 2450 fps, or even the 300gn TSX. It will feel like the proverbial 375, but hit with a little more authority. However, the drop now approaches -13" at 300 yards, so it will start to get a little touchy on long, open shots on a Tommy or oribi. Most people could live with that in Africa, where taking a 300-yard shot on a Tommy is not how most calibers are evaluated.

So why don't I take my own advice, already? Well, we have a licensed 416Rigby, and lots of ammunition. Maybe someday.

lighter guns, shorter actions, easier feeding, makes "book" velocity in normal length barrels, less power to get there, and for the same effort, more rounds down ..

as for loadings .. hmm, weird call -- if the rigby is spec'ed at X pressure and makes X pressure, it's spec, and frequently doesn't make published vels .. if the others are Y and Z pressure, and only ONLY makes published vels ....

only a ludditte would struggle with which is "better" after math

Shorter bolt throw is nice. Fits in standard Mauser without removing much feed ramp/lug support. Relatively inexpensive ammo and factory rifles. To me, I guess, the 416 Ruger just seems very practical. I love history and the the lines of Rigby rifles, but they are just not in my budget. If Ruger had brought out the 416 Taylor, I’d be equally enamored. I believe original 416 Rigby performance was around 2300 fps, and the Taylor does that quite well. Much more than that is really pushing it in that little case. About 2350 seems to be a safe max. The 416 Ruger splits the difference between the Taylor and Remington in case capacity.

quote:

While most of my hunting life has revolved around cartridges using 2800-3000fps trajectories, I readily admit that such is not necessary for Africa. Keeping things less than a -10" drop at 300 yards works fine.

With range finders and scopes with multiple reticles.

The differences in trajectories has become mute.

But I would chose the 416 Ruger for many reasons all ready stated.

True that either the Rem or Ruger CAN reach and duplicate Rigby performance, BUT not once with any of my handloads are the velocities with max loads below 2500fps with a 410gr Woodleigh RNSP.
The original Rigby/Kynoch load was a 410gr bullet at 2370fps. This is easily surpassed by the lesser 2 cartridges today because of modern powders, just as the performance of the Rigby is boosted at the SAME max pressure of 38,000psi by modern powders.
If you boost pressure to modern standards with the Rigby, you can match 416 Weatherby velocities, although why you would want to is another story...just saying.
I see no difference in the real world in bolt throw, a 1/4” is neither here nor there in the heat of DG hunting and a charging whatever.
My own 416 Rigby is on a custom CZ550 Safari action, the bolt is just as fast to operate as any of my standard length or magnum length rifles.
Choose whichever cartridge takes your fancy.
I just really like the Rigby case, have also built a 338-416 Rigby Improved and really like that more than my 338 Edge.

Cheers.

.416 Rigby is my daily driver. While with US powders you can get the Ruger and Rem to near'ish Rigby velocities, some of us have to reload with South African powders which SUCK. So there's really no choice in .416 - it's gotta be Rigby.

The rest of the debate on which case is better is mostly noise.

My 416 has always been a Rigby. Tradition trumps shorter action, lighter weight, cheaper ammo etc in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
ha caught them all Snake oil salesmen !

Just like RIP's 458 thing !

FRIVOLOUS BUFFOONERY EDITED

Sir,
I resemble those remarks!
They will be further addressed at The .458 Win. Mag. Mission, you know which thread that is:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/4821083332/p/44


Bought a box of 20 Hornady rounds. 2400 on the 400 gr they say..... will have to see if that holds true on the 20 inch tube..... Any bets on what them factories will do from the Ruger ?

Hornady stated their ADVERTISED factory ammo velocity is for a 24" barrel.
Their reloading manual data was stated to show velocities for the 20" barrel.
My chronographing for the 400-grain DGS .416 Ruger, Hornady factory ammo:
20" barrel, Ruger Alaskan Stainless, 77*F (constant): 2350 fps MV (average of 25 rounds, St.dev. = 10.0 fps)
24" barrel, Ruger No.1 Stainless/Laminate, 67*F (65*F to 69*F): 2401 fps MV (average of 20 rounds, St.dev. = 10.5 fps)
I consider that excellent ammunition. They got it right on the advertised MV for a 24" barrel too.
Those velocities are MV, corrected from 5-yard instrumental velocity for BC = 0.319: Add 13 fps.
So, subtract 13 fps for the 5-yard readings: 2337 fps for 20-incher, 2388 fps for 24-incher.
Quite nice how they corrected to exactly 2350 fps for 20-incher, and almost exactly 2400 fps for 24-incher,
despite the 10-degree F temperature difference.


Hmmm will see how it pans out, will break out the Oehler which I have not done for a while and see how she runs !

It will be interesting to see how your chronograph data compares to mine.
Don't forget to record the ambient temperature at the range when you shoot.
My ammo is 2009 vintage, bought by the case, all same lot.

Must say I like the package... the Fugly stock with the spacers... as I have a short reach that feature come is handy! Open sights the little gun actually points well, was even thinking time for open sight shooting but every time I go there the stupid having to wear glasses at my age crops up ! Dont care much for the bird cage thingy on the front...... but must say takes the bite out of the shooting ( have one in 338 and its not half bad )

Yes those Guide Guns are fugly, especially since I have to use all the spacers.
I am glad to have the older Alaskan Stainless. The Hogue was too fugly for my tastes on that one too.
The "customized" Zytel canoe paddle may also be fugly, but it is not so unhandy!sticky, i.e., collects lint less, and is light and stiff and indestructible.
Sans scope, Alaskan below is 7.5 pounds, with added Decelerator pad and heavy, decorative, laminated wood "slip-grip" panels.
It weighed 7.0 lbs in the unaltered Zytel canoe paddle.
(Note to self: Replace slick-grip, laminated panels with original polymer, grooved "grip" panels,
or get some checkering done to the laminated panels!)





Here's the one Alf is lubricating with snake oil:

https://ruger.com/products/gui...pecSheets/47130.html




Rip ...

Ruger did a run of Alaskans with a charcoal laminate stock in left-hand. My wife has one in 375 Ruger, 20" barrel. Great little gun. To do the same in 416 one would buy a Boyd's laminate and choose the color. I did a matching grey for my 500 AcRel.

As for "400 grains" for 40-cal, that was before monolithic bullets. Today, one can do use a notch down, 350 gn TTSX.

My favorite .416 is the .416 Dakota, based on the full-length 404 Jeffery.
It can be made to fit in a Winchester M70 Classic
(rebarrel a .300 RUM action).
Makes a great companion to a .458 Win. Mag. LongCOL with 3.6" magazine box.
Both have the same bolt-throw length.


Rip ...

Rigby. Because Harry Selby did not carry a Ruger.

The .404 Jeffery bests the whole line of .416s

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
The .404 Jeffery bests the whole line of .416s

Provocateur!!!

So, obviously the Rigby can go faster and recoil more. For the average bush reloaded, the Remington has the most brass available . And the Ruger comes readily available in an affordable factory rifle.
I think they're all great. Along with some of the wildcat 416s.
Just like the Ruger Alaskan made the 375 Ruger. The Ruger Guide Gun or African makes the 416 Ruger.
At least in my humble opinion.
So, ya got a nice rifle there. I look forward to your report.
Your actually the reason I recently traded my 9.3x64 for a 375 Ruger Guide Gun. Well , your thread on your GG in 338 Win mag.
How does the 416 feed.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
ha caught them all Snake oil salesmen !

alfie, do you think you "caught" anyone? everyone here knows your ludditte ways .. yay, you have an original rigby ..

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Just like RIP's 458 thing !

Now if you Mcgiver the Ruger with a 300 ,320 this and that but never a 400 gr

you mean factory ammo, right? Just like an american dem, blaming others for their actions -- factory 416 rigby is NOTORIOUS for being way underloaded

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
then this suddenly becomes the best thing since David converted his slingshot to a 38 special.

you need jesus -- or at least read the bible

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
{misc blabber not pertaining to topic}

Now back where I hail from the rules of the game were simple ! 400 gr for the 40 class and 500 gr for the 458 class ! {more blabber and opinion stated as law} This is where hammer strikes the anvil !

Bought a box of 20 Hornady rounds. 2400 on the 400 gr they say..... will have to see if that holds true on the 20 inch tube..... Any bets on what them factories will do from the Ruger ?

you bought factory ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

Hmmm will see how it pans out, will break out the Oehler which I have not done for a while and see how she runs !

generally on batteries, and well -- surprising to hear you don't use it "often"

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Must say I like the package... the Fugly stock with the spacers... as I have a short reach that feature come is handy! Open sights the little gun actually points well, was even thinking time for open sight shooting but every time I go there the stupid having to wear glasses at my age crops up ! Dont care much for the bird cage thingy on the front...... but must say takes the bite out of the shooting ( have one in 338 and its not half bad )

Alfie,
hopes this works out for you .. why don't you buy a box of brand spanking new 416 rigby, federal, and try it as well .. post results..

I'm with RIP on the .416 Dakota. Looks like the "perfect" .416 cartridge. Would build one if properly headstamped brass available. I'm just not willing to travel all the way to Africa on the chance the ammo won't make it through customs. Ward at Dakota says it's very, very rare and hasn't seen any in quite a while.

Maybe call it the 416/404 Rimless Nitro Express and figure out a way to mod the head stamp on the "new" Norma 404 RNE brass???

The 416 Dakota is not a bad cartridge IF you are going to hand-load in order to use the CAPACITY.

And if you are going to do that, then the Rigby offers another 13 grains of capacity to play with. For plain vanilla 416 loads, the Ruger will serve well.

I don't see any practical difference other than the Rigby has never been my cup of tea as it requires a heavy larger rifle by comparison..I like the Remington, but the Ruger seems to be the best of all from a hunter and practical stand point...I love the Ruger African model so that's my pick..I picked the gun, not the caliber, they all three are fine balistically and the same..

If someone is buying a rifle/cartridge combination in the over 40, less than 45 class, I see no reason to get a 416 of any persuasion when something in 404 is available. For factory use there's the Jeffery and for handloaders the Jeffery case can be straightened and the shoulder moved forward resulting in a significantly better cartridge than any 416. Only reason to get a Rigby is you want to pretend that the clock has been running in reverse.

In the late '80's I thought I needed a 416 Rigby and so I bought a Kimber Big Game Rifle. Yes! Kimber made a magnum Mauser action in those days. The gun was fine and shot pretty well but I found it to be so big and heavy that it was cumbersome and when I pushed the velocity up into the 2550 fps area with a 400 SAF the recoil was a little too stiff for my liking. For me a 416 Remington at a pound or so less will give you all thump necessary for anything in a handier package.

Mark

I LIKE the Rigby case...LOTSA powder room...I used it to build my 50 cal wildcat...ON A RUGER EARLY MODEL 77 TANG RECEIVER....max COAL is ~3.28" from the mag or 3.55" single shot touching the lands with a 525 gr Cast Performance WFNGC that I picked as the base bullet...it shoots the 647 Military 50 BMG BULLET AT 4.6" touching lands fairly well with resized, popped bullets...and I've practiced shooting and reloading single shots ALMOST as fast a just stroking from the mag. I can reload it to just about ANY velocity/pressure I care to...same with the 416 Rigby...or ANY other cartridge for that matter.

I often thought about doing a 416 switch barrel for that Tang Ruger just to wave at all the Bull Krap that keeps coming up...but then Ruger came out with the Guide Gun and ruined it for me.

I also keep thinking of rechambering my 26" Taylor...but everytime I get that nightmare I take a look at the actual chrono/ballistics from that rifle and the nightmare turns into a very happy smile. It might be behind a few fs compared to the 20" Rem and Ruger but I use much LESS powder, get whacked much less smartly it already weighs right at 8# WITH scope/sling/2 down and 1 up so I can't complain...Oh...it's on a Tang Ruger also using a Savage 416 Taylor re-threaded barrel from Midway and my own redesigned barrel nut that doesn't look all that bad...it matches the Ruger receiver contour, just extended 2".

What has this to do with the dust-up...CASE VOLUME...the Rigby case has all the volume you can use to load up and down for velocity and/or pressure and STILL out volume/velocity all the rest AND you can have it in a standard length 3.60" action OR the shorter Ruger action and have a quasi-featherweight 7 pounder, you just have to pick and choose ALL the components.

Talk about snake oil salesmen...those poor bawstids could take lessons from Ya'll.

Which one is "better"...that is in the mind of the beholder and is totally unprovable EXCEPT in the mind of the beholder...which is good enough for the beholder and good enough to keep the dust-ups going well.

Hey...it's all good...at least we STILL have freedom of speech...at least for a while in some places.

Good Hunting

I would posit that there are no practical differences that would or could be discerned in the field.

Availability of factory ammo might be a factor if for some reason your ammo got rerouted.

But theoretical differences are fun to discuss.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by LJB:
I'm with RIP on the .416 Dakota. Looks like the "perfect" .416 cartridge. Would build one if properly headstamped brass available. I'm just not willing to travel all the way to Africa on the chance the ammo won't make it through customs. Ward at Dakota says it's very, very rare and hasn't seen any in quite a while.

When I built mine on the M70 RUM, the .416 Dakota brass was readily available. IIRC, Norma was making it then.
Yep, any 404 RNE (new Norma) or 404 Jeffery (old Norma or new Hornady) headstamped brass would work just fine.





Maybe call it the 416/404 Rimless Nitro Express and figure out a way to mod the head stamp on the "new" Norma 404 RNE brass???

Good idea. Or use Hornady brass, good as Norma, and call it the ".416/404 Jeffery."
No mods needed either way really.
No different than Saeed using the old Norma headstamp for his .375/404 Jeffery.
He never has any customs problems over headstamps.
IIRC, Saeed started off just necking down .416 Dakota to .375 caliber then switched over to Norma "404 Jeffery headstamp."

The 404 Jeffery aka 404 Rimless Nitro Express is without peer, unless it is the .416 Dakota.
The .416 Dakota is like the 404 Jeffery with all the nostalgic flies knocked off of it,
and the .416 Ruger is a kissin' cousin.

The .416 Dakota, like the 404 Jeffery, is one of the perfect fits in a CZ 550 Magnum magazine box, having best feeding potential.
The .416 Rigby is a too-fat, make-do cartridge in the CZ 550 Magnum.
The .416 Dakota also allows an extra round in the magazine versus the Rigby.

The .416 Dakota has 0.1790" length of 0.4170" diameter parallel-sided free-bore.

The .416 Rigby has zero free-bore. It has a tight, leade-only throat, starting at 0.1469" diameter and tapering down to bore diameter with an almost 1-degree leade angle (0*54'16.5").

The .416 Ruger has 0.2000" length of 0.4170" diameter parallel-sided free-bore.
One might easily extend the throat another tenth inch or two.
One might be able to LongCOL load the .416 Ruger and house it in the M70 RUM action or a CZ 550 Magnum.

I better quit for now.

Rip ...

I load my 416 Rigby's to 2,350 fps, with 400 to 410-grains like the originals. Shot 20 head of bison with the open sights. Awesome.

I load the 416 Remington to 2,350 fps, with 400-grains in the interest of safety and function in Hot weather. My Sako in 416 Remington Magnum is 1/2 pound lighter than my Rigbys. I have never short stroked either of these rifles. Unlock, Pull HARD, hit the stop, push HARD, lock the action. Easy as pie.

The 416 Ruger looks like the ultimate big bear and moose cartridge. I would use a 22-24" barrel, unless Alf's Oehler tells another story.

I hunted most of DG with a 404 Jefferys, two by Jefferys, 0ne a pre 64 mod. 70, and I tried the 404/416 Ruger..I liked them all, but ended up with a rather light mod. 70 pre 64 in the .416 Remington at 9 lbs..I liked them all, still couldn't tell you which is best..Take your pick.

I guess out of nostalgia of which I guilty a hell, Id would have to go with the original Jefferys I had, the one with a 27 inch factory barrel..It was light weight, pointed like it really didn't need iron sight, lean and mean..pretty gun.

Of all the factory guns out there today Id go with the Ruger African every time, its a beautiful with all the bells and whistles you can put on a inexpensive facrtory big bore..Ive love it. Ive had one in 9.3x62, a couple of .338s, a .416 Ruger. Hard to beat. My present jewel is a .338 Win that shoots like a bench rest gun, looks like an English rifle, and killed its share of elk over the last number of years..I think I bought the first on off the shelf..sold the rest as they no longer fitted my present need.

Alf; did you get a chance to chronograph any ammo with your Guide Gun ?

I do not have a 416 Rigby but do have 416 Ruger and Remington.

The 416 Ruger Alaskan with a McMillan classic stock is one of my favorite rifles. It is probably my favorite above 375 rifle. It feels light and easily maneuverable in tight places. The 350 grain TSX seems reasonable as to the recoil with amply sufficient performance for my use in Alaska.

I have a M70 stainless classic re-barreled in 416 Rem with an HS Precision stock. It has a 22" barrel. I like this rifle also.
But most days prefer the Ruger. Most likely because other top favorite rifles are Rugers in 375 Ruger and 338 Win.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffe just playing with you man
Ray's assessment of the Rigby.... my thoughts exactly very very big rifle ! way to big for what I want to do so the Ruger is compact, its light ! the brake takes the bite out of the fact that it's light.

What I like about the Ruger's compactness is I can tote it in the pick up in a short bag and on the side by side it's a dandy !

There is little not to like about that little gun...... now I have to make is shoot straight and if it does it will be my go to for buggering around the bush up here !