Does conventional wisdom now tell us that with CEB NCs we do not need Solids in the magazine when shooting Buff?

Conventional wisdom? This is Accurate Reloading...I think you have the wrong website!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Does conventional wisdom now tell us that with CEB NCs we do not need Solids in the magazine when shooting Buff?

Solids were not needed for buff even before the advent of the CEB non-con.

465H&H

I was referring to perhaps the 3rd or 4th shot

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
I was referring to perhaps the 3rd or 4th shot

Or are the NCs capable of passing from stern to stem on a south bound Buff

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
I was referring to perhaps the 3rd or 4th shot

Never used the CEBs (by the reports seem like a good bullet) but have hunted Cape Buffalo a number of times...never used or carried a solid in the magazine on Buff...

I have used North Fork (Softs) and Barnes TSXs and both work fine on Buffalo...never had an issue with penetration with either bullet.

Use the Solids for Elephant and when you do not want a "big hole" in the skin/pelt....

What cartridge?

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
I was referring to perhaps the 3rd or 4th shot

Ask Michael458 in a couple of days - he's due back from his Australian buffalo hunt on the 10th (or was it the 11th). Anyway, I believe he previously he loaded a NonCon in the barrel and top cartridge in the magazine, followed by two Solids in the bottom the magazine. Solids were just in case the stern to stem shots were required for an escaping buffalo. With the penetration performance of the new CEB BBW#13 HP NonCons I’m not sure if Michael still backs them up with solids or not.

400H&H 370gr NC 400gr Solids

I've hunted Buffalo with 6 different PH's, a couple on more than one occasion. Of those, only one has asked me to use a solid on Buffalo as a back up. He wanted a TSX up top and Solids down in the mag.

The others have wanted TSXs in both barrels. I'm taking both Non-Cons and Solids this October. Unless something has changed, it will be Non-Cons for the Buff and Solids for the Ele.

If I remember correctly the CEB 400 grain BBW was one of the deepest penetrating bullets on the tests due to the high BC and the nose profile. Those 270 grain non cons should penetrate quite well at a SD of .314 and only shank diameter. Please post the results from the hunt.

I'm taking both Non-Cons and Solids this October. Unless something has changed, it will be Non-Cons for the Buff and Solids for the Ele[/quote]

Looking for re-assurance with the CEB use... Plan on using my 450NE with 480 CEB solids on Tuskless and my 400H&H and 370gr NC on Buff

I think you'll be fine with solids on the tuskless and non-cons on the buff. But check with your PH just to make sure.

With bullets of new technology like the CEB NCs how do you ally the fears of a PH when he sees something he has never seen before

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Does conventional wisdom now tell us that with CEB NCs we do not need Solids in the magazine when shooting Buff?

Zephyr

Boomy hit it on the nose with this question;

""What Cartridge?""


Buffalo in my opinion is the toughest challenge of ALL--For Expanding, or trauma inflicting bullets, whether Conventional or Non Conventional.

If I used Conventional Premiums--Swift, TSX or other--I would ALWAYS back them up with Solids. NONE of these can be relied upon 100% of the time to get from odd angles that you will have to shoot a second shot into the vitals, and none are capable of getting from stern to stem on a dead rear shot.

With MOST NoNCons you can rely on the odd angle shots, and in SOME cases, even from a dead rear end shot--DEPENDING on the CARTRIDGE and the velocity it can achieve!

Cartridge? Well, for instance, 45/70 or 458 Lott???? I think if I hunted buffalo these days with the 458 Lott and I was using the 450 NonCon at say 2300 or 2350, then I think you can get by without a solid on buffalo. But if you are using a 45/70, then I might just elect to go with all solids, the 400 BBW#13 Solid, to INSURE I get the penetration needed from most any angle, but I would be more likely to go with the 370 NonCon up Front, followed by the 400 BBW#13 Solid. Try and hit as hard as possible on the first shot, then insure proper penetration from then on.

Just the last couple of weeks my Son Mark David used a 475 B&M Super Short on a BIG Body Australian bull, bigger than any cape buffalo in body size. He hammered with a 320 BBW#13 NonCon through both shoulders, his second shot was a 350 BBW#13 Solid from rear quarter, traveled through stomach, and angled to the far shoulder, and exited, total of 44 inches of penetration before exit. I am of the opinion the NonCon would not have made it that far. A third and final shot dead up the rear with the 350 Solid, making it to the vitals, but of course did not exit. The first two rounds put the buff in the dirt. This was the right decision for the cartridge involved for this mission.

Using my own 500 MDM with the new 450 BBW#13 NonCon at 2400 fps, there is no need for solids at that point. Using a 50 B&M Super Short with 375 North Fork CPS, or 335 NoNCons, Solids needed for backup! All depends on the cartridge.

NonCons like velocity. Hi performance Cartridges, NonCons alone will do. Lesser performance cartridges, I like the insurance of a solid still. Even though in many cases you might just get by with a straight load of NonCons--that BBW#13 Solid provides the INSURANCE that just might be needed!

Michael

""What Cartridge?""

Hi Michael,

Can you please advise your thoughts on the 577NE
in this situation running @ 2050-2075?

Thanks,
NN

For the 577 NE that I admire so much I like the idea of a 750 grain solid at 2,050 fps and a 650 Non Con at 2,300 fps.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NitroNut:
""What Cartridge?""

As mentioned earlier 400H&H 370gr NC 400gr Solids moving in the mid 2400 fps

When the NonCon HP CEB's enter the Cape buffalo do the sheared petals penetrate thru the lungs/heart/great vessels...etc. and reach the opposite inside chest wall?

If so, do the .416 and .375 caliber NonCon HPs work the same way with the sheared petals penetrating the lungs/heart/great vessels...etc.?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroNut:
""What Cartridge?""

Hi Michael,

Can you please advise your thoughts on the 577NE
in this situation running @ 2050-2075?

Thanks,
NN

Caliber is as good as velocity! Nitro, in 577NE for buffalo I would use the straight NonCons, you don't need a solid in that caliber for buffalo.


Zephyr

In your 400HH I would also go with just the 370 NonCon at 2400 or so. Don't need the solid on that one either. The only thing that any of the NonCons may not be able to do, depending on distance, and other factors, is that dead on rear shot, many of the NonCons will make it to the vitals, but not much further I think. Any other angle, no worries.



AIU

There is some concerns about the 6 blades of the standard 9.3 and 375 NonCons getting through the shoulders of big buffalo. I tested a 3 blade 9.3 on the shoulder of a buff, the three blades made it through the shoulder into the vitals. I think for 9.3 and 375, both being small bore, that the 3 blade bullet is the best option on buffalo. The 6 blade for everything else.

Up to .510 caliber I have seen used, the blades all stay inside the vitals and do not make it to the outside chest wall on a buffalo. They rip and raise hell with all vitals however, this has to be part of that shock and trauma effect we are seeing on buffalo. Blades do penetrate lungs, heart, vessels, anything else they come in contact with inside the chest cavity.

Buffalo are heavy duty critters--thats why I love them so much.

Michael

quote:

Caliber is as good as velocity! Nitro, in 577NE for buffalo I would use the straight NonCons, you don't need a solid in that caliber for buffalo.

Thanks Michael. I'm going to give these a try. I see there are a couple of dealers in Canada now.


Regards
NN

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
For the 577 NE that I admire so much I like the idea of a 750 grain solid at 2,050 fps and a 650 Non Con at 2,300 fps.

650gr at 2300fps in the 577NE on a double isn't going to work due to regulation issues.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

AIU

There is some concerns about the 6 blades of the standard 9.3 and 375 NonCons getting through the shoulders of big buffalo. I tested a 3 blade 9.3 on the shoulder of a buff, the three blades made it through the shoulder into the vitals. I think for 9.3 and 375, both being small bore, that the 3 blade bullet is the best option on buffalo. The 6 blade for everything else.

Up to .510 caliber I have seen used, the blades all stay inside the vitals and do not make it to the outside chest wall on a buffalo. They rip and raise hell with all vitals however, this has to be part of that shock and trauma effect we are seeing on buffalo. Blades do penetrate lungs, heart, vessels, anything else they come in contact with inside the chest cavity.

Buffalo are heavy duty critters--thats why I love them so much.

Michael

Best bet here is to stop using those little rat guns, eh Michael! Glad you're back. Looking forward to hearing about your hunt.

Well for us single wide trailer trash we can make adjustments
I can see your point (of impact) pun intended on the doubles.

Yea, I don't think the extra velocity will work out in the double. Honestly, I'm not sure I could handle the extra velocity in the 577NE anyway!!

Michael, thanks for the feedback. I think you're saying for the 6 blade .416 (370 gr Noncon HP) the blades make it into the vitals on Cape buffalo but you have reservations about the .375 (275 gr. Noncon HP 6 blade) - correct? The core of both will penetrate deeply regardless of blade performance. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Best bet here is to stop using those little rat guns, eh Michael! Glad you're back. Looking forward to hearing about your hunt.

Hi Todd

Yes, JUST AS I ALWAYS SAID---Neither 375 or 9.3 are proper buffalo calibers! Not my 9.3 B&M, not any 9.3 or 375, in my opinion and from what I have seen in this trip, and past years. They are mediums, they WILL KILL a buffalo, but in no way do they have any knockout value at all. Drill a bullet in the right place and these will do the job, eventually! Don't drill a bullet in the right place, you got a damned problem on your hands! Not enough caliber! Caliber makes a difference with these beasts! I have seen it!

I would not have even taken the 9.3 for this had I not been on a mission with it. Those that want to use these rat calibers need a heavier blade on the BBW#13 Noncons to get through that shoulder mass. So Dan cut the rat caliber blades from 6 to 3 blades. I still have to test these here in the lab, but the 3 blades did get through the shoulders of cow buffalo. Once I found this out, I put the 9.3 away, and did not use it on any of the redskins, or my two big bulls. That was delegated to the 475 B&M with it's .474 caliber BBW#13s and North Fork CPS.

quote:

Michael, thanks for the feedback. I think you're saying for the 6 blade .416 (370 gr Noncon HP) the blades make it into the vitals on Cape buffalo but you have reservations about the .375 (275 gr. Noncon HP 6 blade) - correct? The core of both will penetrate deeply regardless of blade performance. Regards, AIU

AIU

From all outside indications the 6 blade .416 Noncons are making it through the big shoulders of buffalo. I have not used 416s in this capacity, but from reports in the field it is so.

I had a report from our own Kebco that he did not get some blades of the 375s through the shoulders of buffalo in Australia. I spoke to Ken at length, then Dan and I spoke about it, Dan did a quick run of 9.3s for me, 255 NonCon with 3 blades instead of 6. This doubled the size of the blades, making the blades themselves about the size of a decent bore, 416 up size blades. These did in fact make it through the shoulders of cow buffalo, into the vitals. There will be a 9.3 and 375 BUFFALO BULLET--both 3 blades instead of 6. As stated above, I have to test these in test medium here before we proceed, just to make sure everything is good to go. Just because it worked on a few cow buffalo, I still need to get a good study in on these under CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES.

The remaining slug, after shear, does continue to penetrate as normal, 6 or 3 blades, does not matter. Some in the rat guns will be recovered on the far side, I have the remains of a 255 9.3 after going through both shoulders. The remaining slug as always continues to penetrate deep and straight.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by NitroNut:
""What Cartridge?""

Hi Michael,

Can you please advise your thoughts on the 577NE
in this situation running @ 2050-2075?

Thanks,
NN

Whatever .585 you use, it's still what the .366, .375, .416, .458, etc. want to be when they grow up

I've been extremely lucky in that the CEB Non-Cons loaded over the same charge of powder as I use for the CEB solids go to the same place in my 375Fl, 450-400, 577NE and 600NE doubles. Others have had similar experiences.

Michael, again thanks for the feedback. I shoot .375 H&H Ackley Improved and .416 RUM - hence, this is important to me.

I've talked with Dan extensively (in fact, I was a customer {maybe the customer} asking him for the round nose plastic tips to help feeding problems - they work great). These tips may also make blade shearing more predictable.

I assume there'll be a need for plastic tips designed for the 3 blade HP Noncons vs. the 6 blade HP Noncons. The diameter of the HP "holes" for each will likely be different - correct?

Side chest ("vital triangle") shots should allow blade penetration more easily than straight frontal or quartering shoulder shots.

It's critically important that those blades get inside the chest cavity, if the HP Noncons are going to have their devastating/killing effects.

Regards, AIU

AIU

No man, no thanks needed.

I concur at this point about the round nose tips, I think they will enhance shear as well. This is on my list of things to test in the next few weeks after I get caught up a bit. As for being predictable, well, damn things are already predictable in almost all cases now that we have the cavities sorted out, tips sorted out, that sort of thing.

The Cavity in 9.3 and 375 for both 3 blades and 6 blades is the same--same tips for both designs.

I have had excellent results on buffalo, frontals with blades ripping HUGE holes through the heart, but this was with 458 and .500 calibers. To the best of my knowledge the ONLY issue ever with the blades in question was the 6 blade 375s straight through the shoulders. Other shots have not been an issue, behind the shoulders, from reports I have. The beefer 3 blade versions on the 9.3 and 375 will solve most of this, of course bone is a blade stopper for sure, but if you are busting bone, and the remaining bullet will bust hell out of bone, then all else is moot anyway.

This is the remainder of a 9.3 255 #13 HP 3 blade that went through both shoulders of a large cow buffalo, Sam and I removed the on side shoulder, results were devastating, large gaping hole in the shoulder, no blades were found caught up in the shoulder. This is at the top of my list to test now in the lab to find out exactly what is going on with the 3 blades. But it seems to work on buffalo pretty good, at least for a medium caliber.



Michael

quote:

Whatever .585 you use, it's still what the .366, .375, .416, .458, etc. want to be when they grow up

I've been extremely lucky in that the CEB Non-Cons loaded over the same charge of powder as I use for the CEB solids go to the same place in my 375Fl, 450-400, 577NE and 600NE doubles. Others have had similar experiences.

High Five for the 577NE !!



My understanding is that loading data is similar to what you would use with a conventional bullet like the Woodleigh. Has this been your experience?
It’s quite exciting to see that we have projectiles for doubles now that will equal the best used in those funny yank and crank things- ha ha.

NN

PS

Michael,

This story reminds me of a man who many years (I think it was about 1947 or so) ago shot a moose with a conventional bullet that failed.He decided to make a better mousetrap, and that’s how we ended up with the Nosler partition. Keep up the great work.

BTW, I’m sure having to do all that field testing in Africa must be hell.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroNut:

High Five for the 577NE !!



My understanding is that loading data is similar to what you would use with a conventional bullet like the Woodleigh. Has this been your experience?
It’s quite exciting to see that we have projectiles for doubles now that will equal the best used in those funny yank and crank things- ha
NN

Yes,
What seems to work well with Woodleighs also works well with CEBs in my doubles

Michael,

In my discussions with Dan, he stated that higher velocity also fascilitated blade penetration and getting the blades into the chest cavity. With these monolithic solid bullets I believe higher velocity helps in creating large devastating within-the-chest-cavity wound channels.

At present on my upcoming Tanzania two buffalo trip, I'm planning on using the .416 370 gr. HP NonComs with round plastic tips fired at at 2800 at the muzzle - this should really smack'im. They feed perfectly in my gun. My back-up will be the 375 AI using 275 gr HP NonComs with round tips fired at 3000 fps for buffalo and 230 gr ESP HPs with talon tips fired at 3250 fps.

I'll call Dan and get some 3 blade 270 gr. .375 HP NonCons. So far as I know, mine are 6 blade 270s.

I agree the 3 blade version should work better on thick-skinned game. The 6 blade version will be more than enough for thin-skinned critters.

Regards, AIU

AIU

What you and Dan have spoken about is 100% spot on--The BBW#13 NonCon LOVES VELOCITY, and there is no upper end to performance that us mere mortals can tote around in the field. Velocity does indeed increase penetration of both blades, and remaining bullet. Also, very much increases trauma inflicted.

On your upcoming buffalo hunt with the 416s at 2800 you WILL see a very noticeable reaction on your buffalo, get that bullet in the front half and your hunt is over at that point. Naturally you should continue to shoot, but if you do that, its over and done. As for the 375, well 3000 is better than 2500, and honestly, I would not hesitate to hammer one with the 230 ESP Raptor at 3250. The penetration is there, and with penetration--YOU CANNOT FAIL. With those velocities you will not have an issue. Just get it in the front half! End of Story.

I will do my best to give the 3 blade 9.3 a test by the end of this week, so hold off on an order for the 375s until I can get that done, just to make sure of the behavior. While the blades did get through the shoulder, it is very difficult, if not impossible to really access such in the field with much detail about behavior.

You are correct on all points in the last post!

Michael

I'll ask this question again to the folks that have had successful hunts with CEBs

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
With bullets of new technology like the CEB NCs how do you ally the fears of a PH when he sees something he has never seen before

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
I'll ask this question again to the folks that have had successful hunts with CEBs

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
With bullets of new technology like the CEB NCs how do you ally the fears of a PH when he sees something he has never seen before

Zeph

I have had no issues with the various PH friends of mine, they normally listen to what I tell them concerning these matters.

Others, you are going to have to Tell them this "Trust Me". Then, YOU are going to have to put that bullet in the front end of your animal, especially that first one! From that point on, you will never be questioned again.

Michael

Z, most PHs know about Barnes TSX bullets, which have a good reputation in Africa. The CEBs are, likewise, monolithic metal bullets of similar design with at least equivalent performance, but the internal blade shearing aspect turns them into little, yet deep penetrating, FRAGMENTATON GRENADES!

Much has been said about "stopping rounds" vs hunting rounds. Seems the discussion should have been more about "Stopper bullets". Placement, bullet and velocity all add up to that equation. The fast 458's and moderate 500's with the right bullet seem to get the job done pretty good. The Raptors and Non Cons have increased lethality so much.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
I'll ask this question again to the folks that have had successful hunts with CEBs

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
With bullets of new technology like the CEB NCs how do you ally the fears of a PH when he sees something he has never seen before

This is easy! You send him to AR to check out the 250 pages of the Terminal Bullet Performance Thread!