hey, i am about to pick up a 1895 405 winchester, yes made in japan how do you all feel about this as a dgr and hotloaded it is verrrrrry similar to the new 400h+h...stuffy pompus comments welcome as well as helpfull ones. was teddy wrong? what would teddy bring to africa if he were still alive with a good shoulder?

Hi Boomstick!

I am sure your new acquisistion will be much better for african use if a LONDON gunmaker or one of the finer european gunmakers had their name inscripted on the barrel, ON YOUR GUN!.

That was todays stuffy comment!

I had Kreiger build me one when he first started to convert the Brownings. Very nice with ERA sights and very accurate. My intention was to use it in Africa for Buffalo & Lion. The ballistics with a 400gr bullet are equal to the 450/400. The only problem is that the magazine is not long enough to load with a 400gr bullet and have sufficient case capacity. I haven't really played with it to see what could be done. Would have no qualms at all using it on Lion & Buff with 300gr bullets, just never got around to it. I have a 405 Ruger No 1 and it doesn't present any problems except needing a little longer throat to use the 400gr bullets. I still like the idea of using a 95 in Africa. I personally believe they are adequate with handloads using premium bullets.

yes with the revival of the 411 cal there is a good supply of premium bullets. hawk, woodleigh north fork and some hard cast or mono solids

If 'Teddy' were around today, he would probably pick something like a pair of Winchester Model 70s in .30-06 and .375H&H, and use Swift A-Frames, North Forks, or Barnes 'X' bullets.

His .30-06 would certainly wear a scope to compensate for his poor eyesight (if he didn't already have Lasik surgery), and his .375 might, too.

He would retch violently at the thought of using a Jap-built 1895, as T.R. was a patriot.

As for an 1895 being a good DGR, it depends upon what you consider DG and whether you can propel a proper DG bullet fast enough to do enough damage, not leave wounded game around for others to finish off.

George

bravo george! good post...wasnt the 375 a possible choice for him back then?

lets say keeping it under 100 yards but preferably 50 to 75 yards thus giving you time for three maybe four shots if needed by swinging that fast lever

I know bulets are betterr now but from my readings of 'African Game Trails' it took a lot of shooting with the 405 to bring down buf and rhino. He did have good success with it against lion though.

maybe he was a bad shot

hey george...is the 405 "legal" today on dg?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
bravo george! good post...wasnt the 375 a possible choice for him back then?

TR went to Africa in '09... the 375 came out 3 years later in 1912

Boom,
We look forward to reading about your exploits with you 1895 405 Winchester.

I think JudgeG is carrying his on his next trip this year.

I have one of the Jap made 1886's that I had converted to 50-110 and it is very well finished........to be honest it's finished better out of the box than any winchester, Ruger, Remington and my favourite cz's. You will have a fine rifle for sure !!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
hey, i am about to pick up a 1895 405 winchester, was teddy wrong? what would teddy bring to africa if he were still alive with a good shoulder?

Teddy found the 405 to be a bit lacking for Buff, and Rhino, but did a passable job on lion!

I've been thinking about getting one of the Ruger No 1s and re-chamber it to 450/400NE 3", and there is a double rifle for sale around the net that is chambered for 405 Win as well. I was thinking JJ could re-chamber that to 450/400NE 3" as well. IMO, that would be a far better rifle to take for Buff, or lion, for that matter than the 405 Win. in any event, if I were going to use the 405 Win for Buff, I handload it as hot as I could, and top them off with North Fork flat, or cup points, and pray! All kidding asside, I think the 405 makes a lot more sense than the 45-70 for sure, but still on the light side power wise!

Let us know, or have someone designated to post a report of how it comes out!

If I were carrying my 1895 Winny to Africa for dangerous game, the first thing I would do is get rid of that stupid safety Miroku is putting on the tang. In my opinion that has all the makings of a bad nightmare.

I've been considering having a blank made to replace the safety button and the linkage in the fire position. Senseless having a safety on an external hammer rifle.

The other thing I don't care for is the sloping magazine box. I think the 405 Win (or mine is chambered for the 411 Hawk) could do with seating bullets out a little further. The first round out of the box can be loaded to the appropriate length, but I have problems 2 or 3 cartridges down in the magazine because of the box slope.

I'd also add that I cringe everytime I read African Game Trails. Roosevelt's ethics may have been fine for his day, or his status, but wouldn't fly today. I don't know if the rifle/cartridge wasn't up to the task or if Teddy was just that bad of a shot. I know he used really bad judgement on some of his shots, but I don't know if the poor performance of the 405 Winchester round was because of the ammo or because of Teddy's shooting.

Well, subject to mindless criticism of those not as wise as me...



I'm taking my Japanese made model 1895 in .405 Winchester to Africa.

Here are some thoughts about it:

1. When Woodleigh .411 solids are loaded to the channelure, they engage the rifling (so I hand turned the chamber a bit and lengthened the freebore a smidgen. I can now get two Woodleighs in the chamber and one in the magazine before the reverse "slope" of the magazine causes round to hang up. I can get two of the obsolete .411 Barnes X 350 grain bullets to function, also. This makes it a three-shooter and not o.k. for me. I want lots of bullets to shoot stuff that will stomp me.

2. My rifle (and Mike's at North Fork) actually have a .413 bore v. a .411 bore, but the bearing surface on those long bullets (Barnes and Woodleigh) seem to spin the bullets just fine.

3. Barnes makes 300 grain bullets that they have tested in Japanese 1895's and they say they feed fine from the bottom of the box... but I haven't tried them. They, in fact, recently changed the position of the channelure to fit the 1895 magazine. This bullet will not key hole, btw and the Hogdon website reports a max load of 2200 fps.

4. North Fork made me some experimental .411 330 grain CUPS and FPS bullets. It was a disaster. They keyholed at 50 yards and barely hit the berm. .411's NF's won't work in a .413 barrel... but feed like a champ.

5. Mike stayed up all last Friday night and machined me some .413 bullets. He even worked up some loads and (God Bless him) shot them in ballistic gelatin. He reported 25 inches penetration (that's a whole lot) with the CUPS and 35" with the FPS bullets with them denting the heck out of the steel backstop.

6. I loaded up 70 .413 diameter bullets (both types) with 52 grains of H4895 and shot them yesterday morning and was gloriously satisfied, getting a 3/4" group at 50 yards. My rifle had a very fine Lyman 21 sight that even has a flip down ghost ring peep. It is a damn accurate rifle with the "new" creations from Mike.

7. The load is very mild and at 2200 fps produces 3500 ft.lbs. of energy. With a very fine penetrating bullet like the North Fork, and energy very much the same as a 9.3x62, I'm not too concerned about its ability to kill a buffalo. It is (as is the 9.3x62) a minimum, of course, but I'm going to darn well try it.

8. I don't have a single rifle that I enjoy carrying... that's quicker to the shoulder.. or that I can shoot accurately with dispatch than the 1895. I've added a barrel band swivel and, of course, the retro Model 21 Lyman peep.

9. I wouldn't shoot a buffalo with any factory ammo made for the rifle, even on a bet, because I don't believe any current load (and Hornady may be the only now made??) would break a buffalos shoulder...

10. While experimenting, I scribed a tiny channelure in Woodleigh solids for crimping and got the things to feed all the way from the bottom of the box.... and got 2000 fps with the load.. but why bother since I have the North Forks that are the cat's meow. BTW, the "scribed" bullets looked brand new after hitting dirt at 2000 fps so the added channelure didn't seem to bother the "solid", but the soft may be a different matter.

11. Mike says he won't make any more bullets at .413 (alas) because he's afraid some dude will shot them in an 1895 that has a bore of .408 (they are out there). Maybe we can change his mind?

12. If I'm dead next week, I can only blame myself, and my desire to "Teddy" a buffalo...And win the Nobel Peace Prize.. and the Medal of Honor... and be President.

Just my thoughts... maybe not well-reasoned, but long thought out and with some deliberate experimentation... But the proof will be in the doing somewhere in The Selous in 6 or 7 days... and....

good onya judge!

take that path least followed and give a warriors yalp as you stand over your prey with one foot on his neck and feel the ghosts of hunters past standing up and applauding you

p.s. are you doing the pith helmet monocular thing or looking more sensibly modern?

Well, since I have the body habitus of TR (at least in his dotterage, I might just wear a turned up brim and specticles... I've got the mustache, too.

Here is a picture of the group. The shot at 3 o'clock was my first, and the top three after I adjusted the sight. I have no excuses for a miss.



Could I pull off the TR look?

Judge, now all you need is that big stick!

friar

quote:

is the 405 1895 winchester a dangerous game rifle?

Nope.

The .405 is a wonderful class B round ie lion, Eland and Giraffe. A 400grn bullet needs to be going 2150fps minimum to qualify it for elephant.

For buff, the same comments apply as to the .45-70. If your shot placement is fine it will work just fine. on ele at the balistics quited above, it would be ok for a side brain or a heart shot.

Don't they teach you kids nothin'!

The .405 is for the elders, who can't catch a wild boar with a teaspoon anymore!!!


Minkman

You guys have got all wrong. According to THE DG experts on this and many other sights. Whom all recomend the .45-70, the true and definate way to make a any rifle into a mud stomping, critter smasher is to slow the bullet down below 1600 FPS.

I'd go with 400 grain hard cast lead bullet at 1200 FPS.

If this is a "let's pretend" project, have at it. If real DG hunting is what you honestly intend to do, I'd select a serious DG rifle, chambered for a serious DG cartridge. Who cares what TR used in Africa at the turn of the 20th century? He used the best rifles that were AVAILABLE to him at the time. If he were alive today and still hunting in Africa, he might well retain that fine British double of his, but the rest of his battery would likely look much different. TR was no recidivist......

When I was a kid, I used to watch "The Rifleman" and play along with my cap-firing 'Shootin'-Shell Winchester' as made by Mattel. What sometimes passes for theoretical DG rifles today seems to follow the same logic..........

AD

The sad truth is that TR wasn't all that great a shot. Al Hasselborg, on Admiralty Island, was, and he made a living shooting the big bears, mostly with the .405. You'll have the PH with you with his DG gun, so the .405 loaded up with modern powders and bullets ought to do just fine. I doubt that the critters have developed kevlar hides and titanium bones in the last century.

Didn't it take TR 13 shots and a whole day of tracking to kill a rhino with his .405?

Also, most of TR's DG killing was done with his H&H double rifle.

However, I would gladly use a P14 Enfield rebarreled to .405 for kudu, etc. It would be fun.

quote:

Originally posted by RupertBear:
Al Hasselborg, on Admiralty Island, was, and he made a living shooting the big bears, mostly with the .405. .

I'm sorry to say, there is a real difference between a Brown bear, and a Cape Buffalo. I find bears to be a bit soft, compared to a Cape Buffalo. Apples and Oranges, don't compare well!

Will the 405 Wn kill a cape Buffalo,
ABSOLUTELY! If placed properly,will a .22 Hornet will kill a cape buffalo, or a Brown bear? absolutely it will! Is it a great idea to try either? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

There is nothing in my statements here that precludes anyone doing it, but IMO, it is not a well thought out venture!

Mac,

I must disagree. A guy might want to use any inadequate caliber for buffalo if he is attempting to accelerate the date on which his life insurance policy pays out. Especially if there is double indemnify for accidental death.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac,

I must disagree. A guy might want to use any inadequate caliber for buffalo if he is attempting to accelerate the date on which his life insurance policy pays out. Especially if there is double indemnify for accidental death.

As for you guys (Mac and 500)...

I just wrote you out of my will.

But I still fail to see what's reckless about shooting a buffalo with a .413 caliber bullet that Mike's tests (albeit, not perfect) has more energy than a 9.3x62 and out penetrated any "soft" that he had ever tested?

Hell... I guess I'll leave my estate to Rosie O'Donnell or somebody that understands firearms instead of ya'll.

Judge,

I am sure you won't try any daredevil stunts with that lever gun, but I am skeptical about whether the .405, even with handloads, will reach the vitals from any angle under adverse circumstances. Of course there are other calibers people hunt DG with that do not do that either, especially with softs. However my personal preference is for a rifle and bullet that are going to get the vitals from anywhere.

Now, if retracting my comments will get me back into your will, please say so and I will delete my posts.

Have fun and shoot a baboon in honor of us big bore monkeys.

A 350 gr. monolithic at 2100 plus from a 405 Win will definatly kill a buffalo IMO. again the monolithic bullets changes the course of history...

My main concern and worst fear is what is the good Judge doing to that Turkey??

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
As for you guys (Mac and 500)...

I just wrote you out of my will.


Hell... I guess I'll leave my estate to Rosie O'Donnell or somebody that understands firearms instead of ya'll.

Damn, judge, I didn't know I was in your will! On second thought I have a 45-70 I'll loan you to hunt Elephant, and I'll even buy you a box of Buffalo Bore ammo to go with it! Now how's that for confidence in your abilities with a REAL ELEPHANT RIFLE!

By the way who is the executor of your will? so I can send him my address, and phone number!

Sorry Judge.
Thanks Ray, that's the best laugh I've had for some time.

ray, mac"dugaboy...

thanks for that bug laugh

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A 350 gr. monolithic at 2100 plus from a 405 Win will definatly kill a buffalo IMO. again the monolithic bullets changes the course of history...

My main concern and worst fear is what is the good Judge doing to that Turkey??

ray, thats what i was thinking...only with the solids