I have been reading, and it appears this action has the strength to easily handle Ruger #1 loads. Say I borrowed a 45-120 and took the Buffalo Classic out to that. Could I really have a $400 45-120 with a 32" barrel?

Does anyone have quickload? What types of velocity could I get from some .458 bullets at 30k, 40k, and 50k pressures? 45-120 mystifies me...



Then, what could I do about the ugly looking stock and non-traditional sights? And could I get a recoil pad on it and still have a reasonable LOP?

I posted some 50kspi exterior ballistics info based on a QL prediction for a 350gr bullet at 50kpsi in Jeffe's thread in the reloading forum.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/168102808

Here's a what the 400gr Barnes SSP at 2650fps looks like, that's a case full of H4895 at <50kpsi.

Trajectory for Barnes .458 dia. (.45-120) 400 gr. SSP at 2650 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.389 0.389 0.389 0.389 0.389
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1360 1360 1360 1360
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2650.0 6236.2 4.71 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2593.7 5973.9 4.61 -0.16 0.29 0.0 0.028607621
50 2538.1 5720.6 4.51 -0.64 1.76 0.0 0.057839190
75 2483.2 5475.7 4.41 -1.45 2.89 0.0 0.087713988
100 2428.9 5238.8 4.31 -2.62 3.67 0.0 0.118253213
125 2375.2 5010.0 4.22 -4.16 4.09 0.0 0.149478640
150 2322.3 4789.2 4.12 -6.08 4.11 0.0 0.181412460
175 2270.0 4576.0 4.03 -8.41 3.74 0.0 0.214077896
200 2218.4 4370.3 3.94 -11.15 2.94 0.0 0.247499515
225 2167.4 4171.7 3.85 -14.34 1.7 0.0 0.281703164
250 2117.1 3980.2 3.76 -17.99 0.0 0.0 0.316715766
275 2067.4 3795.7 3.67 -22.13 -2.19 0.0 0.352565171
300 2018.5 3618.0 3.58 -26.77 -4.88 0.0 0.389280153
325 1970.2 3447.0 3.50 -31.95 -8.11 0.0 0.426890494
350 1922.6 3282.6 3.41 -37.68 -11.89 0.0 0.465427066
375 1875.8 3124.5 3.33 -44.01 -16.27 0.0 0.504921818
400 1829.7 2972.8 3.25 -50.95 -21.26 0.0 0.545407634
425 1784.3 2827.3 3.17 -58.54 -26.9 0.0 0.586918117
450 1739.8 2688.0 3.09 -66.81 -33.22 0.0 0.629487359
475 1696.1 2554.7 3.01 -75.8 -40.26 0.0 0.673149783
500 1653.3 2427.5 2.94 -85.55 -48.06 0.0 0.717939960


I use a Galco leather slip-on on mine, also use it on the 405 Win in the Topper Deluxe Classic stock if you want something a little more conventional.





For sights, you can use the Williams FP-target


Or the Smith Long Range..

That's perfect. Sending a PM.

Hey Tyler, it will handle Rooooger pressures. I've been thinking about the same thing. I just want to get my hands on a longer barrel.

Would you be kind enough to tell me what FP sight you used? I looked through the catalog and don't see one listed for the H&R. Thanks in advance.

DO NOT load an HR to ruger levels.. there have been reports of "unplanned opening" or lethal automatic ejections of these when loaded hot ... remember, its an ancient design, a SHOTGUN design and ONLY specific models are approved for the 60-65K loads like the 450marlin and 500SW.. they WILL NOT rebarrel 98% of the RIFLES to those calibers


if you want a modern design, get an encore or a ruger and work from there

max416 and I are doing research on the 45-120 with nitro loads...

What pressure do you consider this specific model safe to Jeff? I have been told H&R will rebarrel the Buffalo Classic to 25-06, that's over 50k pressures.

Does anyone know their hours when I can call? I want to make sure on their pressure limits, but I'm at school all day so calling them is going to be tricky.

I would not load hotter than "Trapdoor" pressure -- that's 28,000. Not worth the risk!
Like was mentioned above _-- ITS A SHOTGUN ACTION!!!

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Would you be kind enough to tell me what FP sight you used? I looked through the catalog and don't see one listed for the H&R. Thanks in advance.

Williams has a knobbed screw to replace the slotted screw that locks the vertical adjustment so a screwdriver isn't needed to adjust elevation.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=572292

Thanks for the link...was looking at Brownells and never thought to try Midway.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
DO NOT load an HR to ruger levels.. there have been reports of "unplanned opening" or lethal automatic ejections of these when loaded hot ... remember, its an ancient design, a SHOTGUN design and ONLY specific models are approved for the 60-65K loads like the 450marlin and 500SW.. they WILL NOT rebarrel 98% of the RIFLES to those calibers

That's not true, they'll fit high pressure barrels to any SB2 rifle frame made since 1999, high pressure chamberings are those marked with an * on the accessory barrel list.

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx

Pop opens are caused by oil on the latch or shelf, not being closed completely due to debris or improperly sized handloads, or a poorly fitted barrel. Pop opens happen after the bullet has left the bore and pressure has subsided, worst case scenario is a burn mark from the ejected spent brass, which is pretty much a moot issue since all current production rifle barrel have extractors with a few exception of existing inventory of slow selling chamberings like the Superlight barrels and 450 Marlin.

Wrongtarget
Please read the ENTIRETY of the page as presented..

quote:

*For this barrel, please call Customer Service at (978) 630-8220 to see if it can be fitted to your receiver.

For ALL high pressure rounds, you have to call.

for the 60K loads the TK are NOT suitable for a buffalo rifle.

Give em a call at their toll freee number (866) 776-9292 and ask what barrels can be fitted to an NN or HN or later serial number prefix, they'll tell you any centerfire barrel but the 10ga shotgun and 12ga slug barrels. Those frames were made in 1999, that's why you have to call, they don't put that info on their website, but it's in the NEF/H&R Centerfire FAQs and Help sticky at GBO.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/board,126.0.html

Been there, done that, I have a few H&Rs, over 40 so far and got more planned, just picked up a special order 24" fluted 270 barrel and plan on getting one of the new stainless framed SS 45-70 Ultra when they're available.

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/hunter.aspx

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I would not load hotter than "Trapdoor" pressure -- that's 28,000. Not worth the risk!
Like was mentioned above _-- ITS A SHOTGUN ACTION!!!

Take a look at Buffalo Bore 45-70 Magnum ammo specs.


http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

quote:

All .45-70 Magnum loadings are intended for use in the following firearms:
All Marlin Model 1895 variations made since 1972
Browning Model 1885 and 1886
New England Arms Handi-Rifle
Ruger #1 and #3
T/C Encore
Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps
New Production Winchester 1886

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
What pressure do you consider this specific model safe to Jeff? I have been told H&R will rebarrel the Buffalo Classic to 25-06, that's over 50k pressures.

Does anyone know their hours when I can call? I want to make sure on their pressure limits, but I'm at school all day so calling them is going to be tricky.

They're open 8-4 or 3:30 EST, don't remember exactly, their toll free number is (866)992-7676 but you can also email them questions at hr1871@hr1871.com They usually reply by the following business morning, they'll need the serial number of the frame including the 2 letter prefix.

As far as pressure limits, modern frames are investment cast alloy and factory available in 500 S&W with a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi and an operating pressure of ~52kpsi and has a larger case head, thus more thrust than the 45-70 at equal pressure. More than likely recoil is going to be the limiting factor long before pressure is an issue.

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare.cgi?sn=BWeijamfQa&loadset=30&xxglbl=1

I'm sending them an e-mail just to be sure either way. I'll post back with what they say.

Tyler,

Do you really want to shoot a cartridge that big in a rifle that light? H&R's don't weigh anything and a 45-120, especially one loaded to modern pressures, can be a real handful.

I don't want to pour water on your idea, but have you thought this through all the way?

I can always load it with blackpowder and it would be no more than my Guide Gun. And with Trailboss powder it would be pretty light, it doesn't need to be fully filling the case. Could I use a filler with some smokeless powder just like in the 45-70? Like 20 grains Unique under a cotton ball for practice?

Wrongtarget,
I conceed, sir, you are correct!!

and no, you DON"T want a handful of a 6.25# 45-120 Nitro ...put lead in the stock hole, under the pad
jeffe

Adding weight to a wood stocked H&R is easy, pour lead in a piece of copper tubing or pipe that fits in the stock bolt hole, you can add about 1½lbs to the weight of the rifle. Or use a mercury recoil suppressor, a 7/8"-16oz C&H sells for about $35 from MPC, a couple wraps of elect tape and it fits the bolt hole perfect, use a ¼"-28x4" cap screw to install it with a piece of PVC pipe as a filler to take up the space it doesn't use.

http://www.mpcsports.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=841

5744 shoots real well in it with no filler, H4895 is real position sensitive using Hodgdon data. Hodgdon also shows 777 45-120 data for 500gr cast bullets.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rif...ght%20page%20365.pdf

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cartridge.php

Since no one has higher pressure loads for the 45-120 could you run the Remington 300 grain HP at 40k and 50k for me? And the 405 grain Remington at those same pressures? Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by wrongtarget:
H4895 is real position sensitive using Hodgdon data.

VERY much so.. do not use, I pulled down all mine after 2 mis-/hang/WTF fires


TK, no modeling software does good with straight cases .. you'll have to wait until we do real world load dev
jeffe

So what pressures are you going to take your H&R to? Could you PM me as your load testing develops? You know much, much more than me, and I do not feel comfortable creating my own loads with no starting point.

Neither one of those bullets would be a good choice at the veolocities those pressures would yield, they're basically trapdoor bullets, the Speer 300gr Uni-cor and 400gr would be much better choices, a friend used to shoot the 300gr Rem at 2200fps in his BC, killed a lot of deer, but it devastated the meat on impact, so he went to the 400gr Speer at a more modest velocity and was much happier with his kills.

No load data, just potential velocity and calculated exterior ballistics.

Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-120, Rem 405 gr. SP at 2530fps <50kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1064 1064 1064 1064
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2530.0 5755.2 4.55 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2454.3 5415.8 4.41 -0.17 0.13 0.0 0.030098271
50 2379.8 5092.0 4.28 -0.71 1.39 0.0 0.061132311
75 2306.6 4783.6 4.15 -1.62 2.28 0.0 0.093144451
100 2234.7 4490.0 4.02 -2.95 2.75 0.0 0.126179506
125 2164.0 4210.4 3.89 -4.71 2.79 0.0 0.160285752
150 2094.5 3944.5 3.77 -6.94 2.37 0.0 0.195514503
175 2026.4 3692.1 3.64 -9.66 1.45 0.0 0.231919576
200 1959.6 3452.6 3.52 -12.9 0.0 0.0 0.269557343
225 1894.1 3225.9 3.41 -16.72 -2.01 0.0 0.308487006
250 1830.1 3011.5 3.29 -21.14 -4.63 0.0 0.348770514
275 1767.6 2809.1 3.18 -26.21 -7.9 0.0 0.390471946
300 1706.6 2618.6 3.07 -31.97 -11.87 0.0 0.433656716
325 1647.3 2439.8 2.96 -38.48 -16.58 0.0 0.478390908
350 1589.7 2272.3 2.86 -45.8 -22.09 0.0 0.524740708



Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-120, Rem 405 gr. SP at 2250fps <40kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1064 1064 1064 1064
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2250.0 4551.8 4.05 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2179.0 4269.3 3.92 -0.22 0.53 0.0 0.033871809
50 2109.3 4000.5 3.79 -0.9 2.1 0.0 0.068854858
75 2040.9 3745.2 3.67 -2.06 3.18 0.0 0.105002435
100 1973.8 3503.0 3.55 -3.75 3.74 0.0 0.142370331
125 1908.1 3273.6 3.43 -5.99 3.74 0.0 0.181017117
150 1843.7 3056.5 3.32 -8.83 3.15 0.0 0.221004178
175 1780.9 2851.6 3.20 -12.31 1.92 0.0 0.262395193
200 1719.5 2658.6 3.09 -16.48 0.0 0.0 0.305255337
225 1659.9 2477.3 2.98 -21.38 -2.65 0.0 0.349650600
250 1601.9 2307.4 2.88 -27.07 -6.09 0.0 0.395647122
275 1545.8 2148.5 2.78 -33.6 -10.38 0.0 0.443310948
300 1491.7 2000.6 2.68 -41.05 -15.58 0.0 0.492706043
325 1439.6 1863.4 2.59 -49.47 -21.75 0.0 0.543892401
350 1389.7 1736.5 2.50 -58.94 -28.98 0.0 0.596924399



Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-70 Govt,Rem 300 gr. JHP at 2700fps <40kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1448 1448 1448 1448
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2700.0 4855.3 3.60 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2596.5 4490.3 3.46 -0.15 0.25 0.0 0.028326239
50 2495.4 4147.5 3.32 -0.63 1.67 0.0 0.057790453
75 2396.5 3825.1 3.19 -1.45 2.75 0.0 0.088459485
100 2299.9 3522.8 3.06 -2.65 3.45 0.0 0.120406196
125 2205.4 3239.3 2.94 -4.27 3.74 0.0 0.153708380
150 2113.1 2973.8 2.81 -6.33 3.58 0.0 0.188451395
175 2023.0 2725.7 2.69 -8.88 2.93 0.0 0.224727059
200 1935.2 2494.3 2.58 -11.95 1.76 0.0 0.262633025
225 1849.9 2279.1 2.46 -15.61 0.0 0.0 0.302273346
250 1767.0 2079.6 2.35 -19.91 -2.39 0.0 0.343757854
275 1687.0 1895.4 2.25 -24.89 -5.48 0.0 0.387200039
300 1609.8 1726.1 2.14 -30.65 -9.33 0.0 0.432714797
325 1535.9 1571.1 2.05 -37.24 -14.02 0.0 0.480417001
350 1465.3 1430.1 1.95 -44.75 -19.63 0.0 0.530417629
375 1398.5 1302.7 1.86 -53.28 -26.26 0.0 0.582817790
400 1335.7 1188.3 1.78 -62.92 -33.99 0.0 0.637703853


Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-120, 300 gr. JHP at 2900fps <50kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1448 1448 1448 1448
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2900.0 5601.2 3.86 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2791.7 5190.7 3.72 -0.13 0.23 0.0 0.026359502
50 2686.0 4805.2 3.58 -0.54 1.67 0.0 0.053748696
75 2582.9 4443.2 3.44 -1.26 2.82 0.0 0.082223365
100 2482.1 4103.3 3.31 -2.29 3.64 0.0 0.111844496
125 2383.5 3783.6 3.17 -3.69 4.11 0.0 0.142679967
150 2287.1 3483.9 3.05 -5.46 4.2 0.0 0.174803140
175 2192.9 3202.8 2.92 -7.65 3.87 0.0 0.208292765
200 2100.9 2939.7 2.80 -10.29 3.09 0.0 0.243235167
225 2011.1 2693.8 2.68 -13.42 1.81 0.0 0.279722939
250 1923.7 2464.7 2.56 -17.09 0.0 0.0 0.317854566
275 1838.7 2251.6 2.45 -21.35 -2.4 0.0 0.357734960
300 1756.2 2054.1 2.34 -26.25 -5.44 0.0 0.399474583
325 1676.5 1871.9 2.23 -31.86 -9.19 0.0 0.443187250
350 1599.8 1704.5 2.13 -38.23 -13.71 0.0 0.488987888
375 1526.2 1551.4 2.03 -45.46 -19.07 0.0 0.536991237
400 1456.2 1412.3 1.94 -53.62 -25.38 0.0 0.587307273

Thanks for the info, you're right about those bullets being fragile, I was just thinking about them for targets and non-game stuff because they are cheap.

I like the Barnes bullets, but I cannot afford to shoot them. Does anyone have the BC's for heavier cast bullets? Like 450+ grains?

Oh yes here is the reply from H&R:
"We do not give out pressures we recommend the use of factory ammo made to SAMMI specs for that caliber for sporting firearms"

Next time you get a chance to call, ask to talk with Gordon, he's the CS manager, he may answer more technical questions for ya, although specific pressure testing isn't one of them, but he will tell you that levergun loads are safe in the H&R 45-70s. SAAMI spec for the 45-70 is 28kpsi, which makes ammo safe in all rifles.

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

I'll try and call Friday, I have a half day.

Hopefully the call will have better results, after asking why a 25-06 on the Buffalo Classic was fine, but not 45-70 at Ruger pressures they stated
"We do not give out pressures or condone alteration of any firearm."