If I was starting over I would buy a 375 Ruger and hunt everything except elephant with it. I have one and have a 375 H&H and a 416 RM. They all do pretty much the same thing.

This thread started out as a question about using a 416 before it was hijacked. Insults are out of line unless you are standing within arms reach of their target. Ammo for the 375 Ruger is not much of a problem, except in the mind of a couple internet experts.

The bigger calibers do hit harder - at both ends.

Just checked with a PH friend in Zim, and one in RSA.

None of them have ready access to any of the ruger boutique cartridges at the stores they frequent. They all had 375 H&H in camp.

In three trips to Africa the last seven years, I have not had firearms or ammunition misplaced. That said, every year at SCI I hear several stories of people who had, usually ammunition.

Seamaster,

have you actually been to Africa and asked if you could purchase any of the ruger cartridges ammunition, or if the PH had any available. We tend, in America, to think the world revolves around us and our preferences. Not so, in the rest of the world. Also, if you think the three cartridges are about the same, you need to shoot some of my loads.

African firearms stores get a very large percentage of their firearms and ammunition inventory from Europe. They generally consider the ruger designs about as desirable, in terms of inventory and paying up front for each and every box; about as desirable as 264WM ammunition.

Same for the rifles. The rugers that are selling are in 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. They have to order parts and accessories from the US and wait, sometimes over a year for them to arrive. Or, the American Mfgr wants the rifle returned for warranty work.

Here's the reality: you will have trouble finding ruger ammunition if yours has gone astray.

youngda9,

just sell the ruger and buy a Model 70 in 375 RUM. You won't need anything else. If you do feel that need standing about forty feet from a Cape Buffalo or Elephant that is closing fast, you should have made a deal to buy two, the other in a 458 Lott. Personally, I have an OM 70 in 460 G&A for that sort of stuff. Your comments are inconsequential in the DG hunting business; you can make the H&H exactly the same length and weight.

quote:

just sell the ruger and buy a Model 70 in 375 RUM. You won't need anything else. If you do feel that need standing about forty feet from a Cape Buffalo or Elephant that is closing fast, you should have made a deal to buy two, the other in a 458 Lott. Personally, I have an OM 70 in 460 G&A for that sort of stuff. Your comments are inconsequential in the DG hunting business; you can make the H&H exactly the same length and weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Seamaster:
If I was starting over I would buy a 375 Ruger and hunt everything except elephant with it. I have one and have a 375 H&H and a 416 RM. They all do pretty much the same thing.

This thread started out as a question about using a 416 before it was hijacked. Insults are out of line unless you are standing within arms reach of their target. Ammo for the 375 Ruger is not much of a problem, except in the mind of a couple internet experts.

The bigger calibers do hit harder - at both ends.

Wise words Seamaster!
I own a couple 375's they happen to be H&H's but I would probably be nearly as happy with a Ruger. I recently sold a 416 Rigby, nice enough but I just didn't see the need for it, in my opinion if I'm not getting it done with a .375 then I don't think I need to do it. I also have a 400 Whelen, fun gun it runs a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps duplicates or betters the 450/400 that everyone raves about as an African wonder cartridge (if it's in a double rifle).
Bottom line is get what you want for all of your own reasons. People can't convince to do something different and you'll never convince them either no matter how sensible and well thought out your argument is.

quote:

Originally posted by Seamaster:
If I was starting over I would buy a 375 Ruger and hunt everything except elephant with it. I have one and have a 375 H&H and a 416 RM. They all do pretty much the same thing.

This thread started out as a question about using a 416 before it was hijacked. Insults are out of line unless you are standing within arms reach of their target. Insults are out of line unless you are standing within arms reach of their target. Ammo for the 375 Ruger is not much of a problem, except in the mind of a couple internet experts.

The bigger calibers do hit harder - at both ends.

There is a lot of folks on here that get sloppy and run their mouth like they are something, if they were right in front of you they would be a lot less full of themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

Seamaster,

have you actually been to Africa and asked if you could purchase any of the ruger cartridges ammunition, or if the PH had any available. We tend, in America, to think the world revolves around us and our preferences. Not so, in the rest of the world. Also, if you think the three cartridges are about the same, you need to shoot some of my loads.

African firearms stores get a very large percentage of their firearms and ammunition inventory from Europe. They generally consider the ruger designs about as desirable, in terms of inventory and paying up front for each and every box; about as desirable as 264WM ammunition.

Same for the rifles. The rugers that are selling are in 416 Rigby and 458 Lott. They have to order parts and accessories from the US and wait, sometimes over a year for them to arrive. Or, the American Mfgr wants the rifle returned for warranty work.

Here's the reality: you will have trouble finding ruger ammunition if yours has gone astray.

No. I have not had to buy any ammo in any part of Africa. I have not had my ammo lost or delayed in transit, nor do I know personally anyone that has had this happen. I do hear stories, usually on the internet or at a watering hole, about many things from lost ammo to alien abduction. However, I have had a PH that oddly enough carried a 375 Ruger. We all have different experiences.

All ammo is difficult and expensive to obtain nearly everywhere I have left boot tracks in Africa. I have never been to a camp that couldn't supply a loaner rifle if necessary.

My 416 definitely hits somewhat harder but I have not seen any game that was well hit with a 375 that did not give up the ghost as quickly. I think the next big step up from the 375 is a 458 of some flavor.

No need to insult another man's choice of rifle, is there?

Happy hunting.

(a bit jet lagged today, so take this is a humorous tone)

i prefer the 458 due to reloading options. 416s do hit hard.

i had typed out a rant -- then i figured it wasn't worth it.. the layered messages would get lost like wildcat ammo in africa...

from what i understand, there's usually also a 375 camp rifle... just saying


oh well.. yeah, can't work up the desire to enter the fray.. its your money, buy what you like.. ask your PH if there would be a backup gun available in camp... end of story..

Are you guys having a troll identification problem?

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Thank you Dogleg ;!!!!!
That " fast, tough big bore bullets kill well "
That was the point I tried to get across years ago in my thread ( Brown bears aren't Elephants) course that was under my previous moniker. Gumboot458.
.
To quote a friend that is bear guide in Southeast. Wider is better.

But it doesn't have to be heavier.

Holy Cow!

I sort of wondered a little but didn't quite make the connection!

Say Man, you seem a little more reasonable and legible these days, you quit drinkin' or what?

I never let the lost ammo in transit issue stop me, but what the Hell do I know? I have only made two safari's. The first I took my 450-400 3" and a vintage Vickers bolt gun in .318 W.R. back in 2006, Hornady was not yet producing .400 ammo or bullets yet, and what do you think availability in Africa was on .318? , the second, I took a .280 Rem and a .375 H&H. I have gone bear hunting with a '86 in 45/70 and again to Canada with an 8mm/06 and You are not likely to get any of those at Walmart, maybe the .280. The old '86 was a blackpowder rifle made in 1889 and it might have broken a firing pin or any had one of Murphy's laws apply to it, it can happen anytime and anywhere. I would never let any of that stuff deter me from doing what I want to do.
Life is full of Risks.... Take some!

Whatever you do, do not believe a word about any larger caliber being any better at killing any animal.

Provided you use common sense.

In which case, a well placed 375 bullet is infinitely better than a poorly placed larger caliber.

And the 375 will kill them just as dead, and one cannot kill anything more than dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Whatever you do, do not believe a word about any larger caliber being any better at killing any animal.

Provided you use common sense.

In which case, a well placed 375 bullet is infinitely better than a poorly placed larger caliber.

And the 375 will kill them just as dead, and one cannot kill anything more than dead.

Saeed, I know you like or have used a 270. Why now a 375? Haven't you noticed a difference in achoring ability, on average?

And if there is a difference between a 270 and 375, wouldn't one expect a difference between a 375 and 460?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Whatever you do, do not believe a word about any larger caliber being any better at killing any animal.

Provided you use common sense.

In which case, a well placed 375 bullet is infinitely better than a poorly placed larger caliber.

And the 375 will kill them just as dead, and one cannot kill anything more than dead.

Saeed, I know you like or have used a 270. Why now a 375? Haven't you noticed a difference in achoring ability, on average?

And if there is a difference between a 270 and 375, wouldn't one expect a difference between a 375 and 460?

Frankly, I have not noticed anything different between the various calibers I have used for plains game - that include several 270s, 7mm, 338 etc - and the 375.

I have seen a zebra shot with the 375 run 200 yards before dropping dead - he was shot in lungs.

I have seen zebras run 20 yards and drop dead, shot in the same spot with a 270??!!

I have seen impalas shot with a 375 - at the junction of the neck, the bullet staying under the skin by his tail - walk a few yards, sit down and a take a few minutes to die.

In my experience, there is absolutely no correlation between how quickly an animal dies because of the size of the bullet he is shot with.

quote:

one cannot kill anything more than dead.

There are some who would believe other wise.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Are you guys having a troll identification problem?

Thank you...

I am glad to hear, from one more experienced than me, that caliber no longer figures into the killing equation on DG. I have long wanted to hunt Big Five with my OM 70 22 Hornet carbine, but have felt constrained by those who purport to know better at SCI.

On the farm growing up, my Father used his old Mossberg 84B (iirc) to kill three or four 1000-1100lb beeves every New Year's weekend. All one shot kills too. As I recall, he did use solids though.

In the final analysis , shoot what you want. Some don't mind shooting other people's rifles. I do.

If it doesn't bother you , don't worry about ammo availability . If you think this ammo is readily available in Africa, you are wrong. If you have been lucky enough to have never had baggage issues in Africa, good for you.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
In the final analysis , shoot what you want. Some don't mind shooting other people's rifles. I do.

If it doesn't bother you , don't worry about ammo availability . If you think this ammo is readily available in Africa, you are wrong. If you have been lucky enough to have never had baggage issues in Africa, good for you.

+1

Says it all.

Mike

I haven't had rifles or ammo get lost on the way to Africa, but I'm only 50/50 on guns on the way home so I know that problems can happen. It's got to be a running joke, there's less paperwork when they lose them, the guns just show up by courier. Somehow I don't think it would be that easy in Africa with a courier showing up in the bush somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I am glad to hear, from one more experienced than me, that caliber no longer figures into the killing equation on DG. I have long wanted to hunt Big Five with my OM 70 22 Hornet carbine, but have felt constrained by those who purport to know better at SCI.

On the farm growing up, my Father used his old Mossberg 84B (iirc) to kill three or four 1000-1100lb beeves every New Year's weekend. All one shot kills too. As I recall, he did use solids though.

What a great idea!

Please do it, and don't forget to share your hunt report with us.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I haven't had rifles or ammo get lost on the way to Africa, but I'm only 50/50 on guns on the way home so I know that problems can happen. It's got to be a running joke, there's less paperwork when they lose them, the guns just show up by courier. Somehow I don't think it would be that easy in Africa with a courier showing up in the bush somewhere.

Consider yourself lucky. It has happened to me several times.

On my first trip, I got my guns. It took me 9 days (out of a 10 day hunt) to get my ammo and clothes.

I have had bags lost other times but never for as long as my first trip. Since 2000, I can think of at least 4 times. Prior to that, I am too old to remember except for our first trip.

Im thinking this thread has little to do with reality, and a lot of inexperience and too many opinnions that came out of a magazine by some scribes that just couldn't find anything to write about..

Either the 375 H&H or the 375 Ruger suits me fine, I kinda lean towards the old 300 & 375 H&H for no particular reason other than they have always done what they are supposed to do...Same with the 416 Rigby, 416 Ruger and 416 Remington, wherein the ONLY difference is in ones mind or on some post or sheet of paper..

Every option mentioned works just fine and none of us or the animals can tell any difference, the rest is hype...the only thing that matters with any of these calibers is using a proper bullet and placing it in the right spot, and that applies to all calibers.

BUT, although pretty worn out conversation, it still makes good enough campfire conversation if you have had enough to drink. You just can't beat "gun talk" around a campfire!

Ray, everything you say is fine, except including a handloaded 416 Rigby in with the rest of the group.

Both the 416Weatherby and a handloaded 416Rigby can add 200+fps over their competitors. Most people consider a real and repeatable 200fps to be significant for flatter shooting and stronger impact.

Of course, a hunter still needs to put the bullet in the right place. So you can pass the paper bag that holds the bottle.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
youngda9 from what I have read so far, I expect you would try to give Ron Jeremy advice on how to pleasure a woman. You are not too bright. You came on here asking for advice then proceed to shit talk all those that have real world experience.

I smell a rat bastard that has been kicked out of here before! Someone needs to run down the IP address.

I only balked when receiving unsolicited advice about things not in question. Shitting on my choice in caliber or slamming it for potential African availability (over and over and over, despite my saying that I was not concerned about it) was not in the topic of my OP.

Go ahead and do the search to prove to yourself that you're wrong. You'll find that what you're smelling is your own stench.

Unless you are looking for a stopper, the .416 of whatever flavor is your choice. Yes, a .375 will do the job for the average hunter. A .40 caliber 400 grain bullet will do it better.

My .416, sighted dead on at 100 yards is 6" low at 200 and 21" low at 300. I've made shots to that distance.

Within reason, a .416 will do anything a .575 will do and better, and will nearly do anything a .458 WM or Lott will do, and more in some cases (let's talk penetration).

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
What am I missing?

READ:
TERMINAL BULLET PERFORMANCE at the top of this forum. A 416 anything will out penetrate a 375 anything with bullet construction being equal!

That said, I am working up loads with a 180gr Cutting Edge Flat Based Raptor for a 416Rem on a model 70 Classic that will out penetrate just about any 375.

There are also more bullet choices available for the 416 than the 375(much as I love my H&H).

For the record, you are correct about your original post. My apologies.

I read somewhere that bigger diameter entrance/exit holes are less likely to plug, and the amount of radial/axial tissue displacement is greater.

Some writer named Boddington, and another one named Ruark...

Drew,

you got to stop pussyfooting around and just say what you mean.

Rich

I have read everything Michael has published. I have tried some of the penetration tests myself. All of Michael's testing is backed up with real world trials shooting trainloads of animals in less than perfect situations. Proper bullet design is everything. Heavy for caliber is fine if you are shooting cup & core. Move to homogenous solids and the party changes. Take a look at GS Custom bullets, Barnes, Cutting Edge Bullets, NorthFork. Many times less is more.

I do my own research and buy what I want. If you ask questions here, despite the incredible knowledge base, you will get shit slung all over your choices. It is really embarrassing sometimes, that the wealth of knowledge treats those with less experience so poorly.

I will gladly share my starting loads for the Cutting Edge Bullets-by PM only. I am not going to tolerate another shit slinging from the dinosaur crowd.

Andy B

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

Drew,

you got to stop pussyfooting around and just say what you mean.

Rich

With the bullets available today, BUY THE 416 AND DON'T LOOK BACK!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
What am I missing?

READ:
TERMINAL BULLET PERFORMANCE at the top of this forum. A 416 anything will out penetrate a 375 anything with bullet construction being equal!

That said, I am working up loads with a 180gr Cutting Edge Flat Based Raptor for a 416Rem on a model 70 Classic that will out penetrate just about any 375.

There are also more bullet choices available for the 416 than the 375(much as I love my H&H).

For the record, you are correct about your original post. My apologies.

That's what I said on page 2......to check out Michael458's posts if you wanna know more about penetration. That's the thread I read if I forget what bullet will do what and at what velocity.

Got my tracking number for my M70 416 rem today from Buds. It'll be a little over a week before she's in my hands, but I'll officially be a member of the big bore club at least. Brass and bullets on hand for the fun.