First let me say I own a 375 Ruger thus I'm not an "anti".
Do yourself a favor and spend $20 for a copy of Will's book "Elephants and Elephant Guns" for sale in the classifieds. I think you will find it informative. As a matter of fact if it is in the budget Will is selling his pet African big bore. It is a 416 Taylor which is very similar to a 416 Ruger.

You would get more and better answers, OP, if you weren't a prick.

I started buffalo hunting with a .416 Rigby, but was left with a nagging feeling that I wasn't getting what I was hoping for over the .375 H&H. In a move that might seem strange to some, I moved back down to one of my .375s and shot several more. That didn't clear up anything, because as near as I could tell it worked just as well. Trouble with that, was although I could stand by my observations I could just with equal ease attribute that to the higher velocity of the .375, or to A-Frames working better than TSXes, or the sample being too small, or to there being no practical difference between calibers. Nope, that didn't clear up anything, because all I really had was a handful of dead buffalo and a handful of theories. Theories I might add, that I could find people to agree with, and others to disagree with.

One thing that I could be fairly certain of is I'd just as soon have a .375 with A-frames as a .416 with TSXes so it wasn't much of a jump to trying the A-frames in the .416. Although the A-Frames did seem to up its game a bit, the results couldn't be counted on since in the end the sample isn't that large. Although there may or may not have been a meaningful difference is still a matter for conjecture, it was somewhat easier to decide that whatever it was it wasn't worth double the recoil. I could also decide that whatever the cartridge, buffalo are a lot tougher than I ever imagined they'd be.

Moving along, I then came up with the brainstorm that if bigger was ever going to be better, then bigger yet oughta prove it. An opportune water buffalo trophy /culling opportunity gave a chance to put a .375 and .458 head to head on a bunch of buffalo. The increase in diameter finally started pulling ahead in a noticeable and proveable manner. Trouble was, the .375 did hang in there surprisingly well. That brought back the notion that if the .375 could even be on the same page it had to be because of the higher velocity. Naturally that lead to raising the velocity on the .458 by both stiff loading and dropping bullet weight. While I was at it I played with many of the designer bullets around. Not surprisingly, inceasing speed on the same bullets upped the apparent killing power and dropping weights by virtue of mono bullets proved that they work too although not any better. Damn you apples and oranges.

So far this science project has caused the deaths of 135 buffalo and a fair smattering of lesser critters. About the only thing I know for sure is that a .375 can do it, and if you're going to go bigger you may as well go a lot bigger, and faster is better than slower. And maybe, bullets matter more than cartridges. And solids suck.

Solids suck?

Thank you Dogleg ;!!!!!
That " fast, tough big bore bullets kill well "
That was the point I tried to get across years ago in my thread ( Brown bears aren't Elephants) course that was under my previous moniker. Gumboot458.
.
To quote a friend that is bear guide in Southeast. Wider is better.

But it doesn't have to be heavier.

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
I've been thinking about getting a 416...leaning towards the 416 remington magnum in a M70. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it really can't do anything that my 375 Ruger can't do.

The 375 Ruger can launch a 350 grain solid at 2450 fps. This bullet has a sectional density of 0.356.

The 416 Rem can launch a 400 grain solid at 2450 fps. This bullet has a sectional density of 0.330.

Penetration is a function of sectional density and velocity, assuming all other things equal...correct? With the higher SD bullet at the same velocity out of the 375 Ruger leads me to believe that it will have better penetration for DG, although it punches a slightly smaller hole (0.041").

The 375 ruger also shoots flatter and will have more energy at distance due to higher BC bullets.

I don't think the step "up" from a 375 Ruger to anything .416 bore makes any sense. What am I missing?

You nailed it dude. 375 Ruger is all you need - one gun for everything.

Don't listen to Larry Shores ( only 44 buff - hell I shot 44 quail over just one weekend) and Biebs - what do they know about guns.

The guy to listen to is Trax - he will say .275 rigby is the right gun just like Bell would use.

But I say 375 Ruger all the way and one never runs out of ammo on Cabelas Dangerous Game Xbox game - these old timers don't know the next generation of interactive hunting

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Silly comment Larry. No need to try and bash what I have.

Stay out of the thread if you have nothing of value to add.

Another ignorant son of a bitch that goes on ignore and needs to go away!
Larry Shores is a fine and respected member here. Don't need to dismiss him. He probably has more African experience than you will ever masturbate over!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Solids suck?

On buffalo, yeah. Definite vacuum.

You might apply that "stay out of...if you have nothing of value to add..." to your little selfie first. Unless, of course, you consider the humor aspect...

There's no magic in the 375 Ruger, outside of your puerile mind.

As a matter of law (which you seem to be ignorant of in Africa, suggesting that friends and family members pack ammunition for you, and then trying to back track and say they might be carrying rifles too) the 375 caliber is THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for dangerous game in Africa. That should tell you something. A 375 is more of an expert's caliber, more for a hunter with experience hunting DG than a newbie with ZERO field experience such as yourself.

Every post you remind me more of the fairy tale about the tailor who killed seven flies with one stroke of his fly swatter, and then made himself a sash (belt?) denoting his prowess.

Can we just refer to you hereafter as "Mr Seven with one stroke"?

Please do not take this to heart and leave, not just yet. The forums have been a bit less entertaining since Shootaway stopped gunsmithing his double rifles.

take care kid,

Rich

Shot a brown bear two weeks ago with a .300 RUM and a 180 grain Accubond. One second it was a live walking bear and the next instant it wasn't. Bears definitely aren't elephants, or buffalo or armor plated.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Thank you Dogleg ;!!!!!
That " fast, tough big bore bullets kill well "
That was the point I tried to get across years ago in my thread ( Brown bears aren't Elephants) course that was under my previous moniker. Gumboot458.
.
To quote a friend that is bear guide in Southeast. Wider is better.

But it doesn't have to be heavier.

I have almost exactly half the experience of Mr. Shores on buffalo and probably less than that on elephant.

I started hunting Africa with a matched set of Dakota magazine rifles, a .416 Rigby and a .375 H&H. I later added a .470 NE double.

I feel that the .416 puts buffalo down a "hair" faster than the .375. Not really quantifiable, but more a "feeling" than anything else. I only use 300 grain bullets in the .375 and 400 grain bullets in the .416. The .470 has more rapid effect than either given the same placement (roughly).

Personally, I seem to have faster kills with the TSX than with TBBC's or A frames. Solids work well if you hit CNS. My only buffalo kill with a .416 solid was a "bang flop" that took out the spine... but if you include things like Dik Diks, baboon and such, a .416 or .470 solid are not anywhere as effective as an expanding bullet in my experience.

The place where the .416 and the .470 really shine is elephant- and bigger yet would probably be notable.

In my opinion, while the .416 is a bit more versatile (ie it works better with elephant) on buffalo and cats, the difference between the .375 and .416 is minimal, and would fall to user preference. I tend to shoot buffalo with the .416 and plains game and cats with the .375, but really I will shoot anything with either if push comes to shove, although I would not go on a dedicated elephant hunt with the .375, as I have better options- not that it would not work with perfect placement.

While there is no way I would personally be caught shooting a .375 ruger, in reality, from a terminal effectiveness standpoint, there cannot be any difference between it and a H&H.

So, no need for you to get a .416, unless you want to do multiple elephant hunts and don't want to get a true big bore (.458 or bigger.)

Dogleg,

congratulations!

jocko shot them with his treasured 270 OM 70's. That said, he did have a guide with a big rifle.

That first good shot is what anchors them, or in your case, kills them dead-dead-dead.

I do hope you had some backup, just in case...

congrats again,

Rich

quote:

I don't think the step "up" from a 375 Ruger to anything .416 bore makes any sense. What am I missing?

First, I like and think highly of the 375 Ruger. My wife owns a nice little left-hand version, 20" inch barrel. It's sweet.

However, the thread has never answered the "what am I missing?" question.

If a person steps up to a .416" calibre, but lowers velocity and only marginally increases energy, say 15%, then the rifle cominations are about equal and effectiveness will depend primarily on bullets and rifle handling.

However, a handloaded 416Rigby is essentially a 416 Weatherby in capacity and potential. And for what it's worth, the 416 Rigby//416 Weatherby is more hunting machine than a 375. Personally, I like a rifle to be usable for plains game and distance as well as buffalo. The 416 Rigby can be loaded to shoot VERY FLAT. Consider the 350 gn TTSX (.444 BC) at 2825fps, or the CEB MTH 350gn (.550 BC). The 400 grain bullets do 2650fps, if you want more bullet weight, and heavier bullets are available, if that is what you wish.

So what does a handloaded 416 Rigby offer? A one-rifle safari that can nicely parallel your 375 Ruger as a one-rifle safari. You could load both rifles to shoot the same trajectory. It's quite nice, psychologically, to have two rifles that hunt the same way. One can switch from one to the other without any distraction about trajectories. In TZ we have a 416 loaded with 350gn at 2825fps and a 338WM loaded with 225gn at 2835fps. Either rifle is virtually identical in trajectory out to 400 yards. You could do the same thing with a 375 Ruger and would have the added advantage that both rifles would be legal for buffalo.

Mind you, nothing is wrong with going bigger with a .458", .510", or even .585". But going above .416" means giving up some of the joys of the same flat trajectory out to 400 yards. If going 458, I would recommend at least a Lott, and 450 Rigby//460 Weatherby is better and flatter. But recoil starts to mount up if one tries to maintain flatness, so that most people prefer limiting the total number of shots with their "thumper" and shooting plains game with a less-auspicious calibre.

Myself, I would be happy hunting with the 375 Ruger, loaded reasonably flat. Yet I am happier with a 416 loaded as flat with heavier, bigger bullets, and inconsistently I built a 500 AR Nyati, well, because "thump" is nice, too. It's all, win-win. Get in lots of shooting and enjoy your safari.

First of all, one can never have too many rifles

I have practically all calibers all the way to the .700 NE.

I have been hunting big game in Africa for many years - and I use a 375 for everything.

If you want a 416, have one.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
First of all, one can never have too many rifles

I have practically all calibers all the way to the .700 NE.

I have been hunting big game in Africa for many years - and I use a 375 for everything.

If you want a 416, have one.

My feeling exactly When I was younger and poorer a 30-06 did it all.

Now I have the pick of bore dia. from .17 to .458.

The most often reason I pick one over the other is because I have not shot one lately.

In countries like the US where the limiting factor on the number of firearms one can own is money.

If one can afford it buy many. Besides it helps the economy and drives the anti's nuts.

I find them all fun and useful.

My 416 is a Taylor if I had to do it over it would be a Ruger but the Ruger wasn't around back then.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I don't think the step "up" from a 375 Ruger to anything .416 bore makes any sense. What am I missing?

First, I like and think highly of the 375 Ruger. My wife owns a nice little left-hand version, 20" inch barrel. It's sweet.

However, the thread has never answered the "what am I missing?" question.

If a person steps up to a .416" calibre, but lowers velocity and only marginally increases energy, say 15%, then the rifle cominations are about equal and effectiveness will depend primarily on bullets and rifle handling.

However, a handloaded 416Rigby is essentially a 416 Weatherby in capacity and potential. And for what it's worth, the 416 Rigby//416 Weatherby is more hunting machine than a 375. Personally, I like a rifle to be usable for plains game and distance as well as buffalo. The 416 Rigby can be loaded to shoot VERY FLAT. Consider the 350 gn TTSX (.444 BC) at 2825fps, or the CEB MTH 350gn (.550 BC). The 400 grain bullets do 2650fps, if you want more bullet weight, and heavier bullets are available, if that is what you wish.

So what does a handloaded 416 Rigby offer? A one-rifle safari that can nicely parallel your 375 Ruger as a one-rifle safari. You could load both rifles to shoot the same trajectory. It's quite nice, psychologically, to have two rifles that hunt the same way. One can switch from one to the other without any distraction about trajectories. In TZ we have a 416 loaded with 350gn at 2825fps and a 338WM loaded with 225gn at 2835fps. Either rifle is virtually identical in trajectory out to 400 yards. You could do the same thing with a 375 Ruger and would have the added advantage that both rifles would be legal for buffalo.

Mind you, nothing is wrong with going bigger with a .458", .510", or even .585". But going above .416" means giving up some of the joys of the same flat trajectory out to 400 yards. If going 458, I would recommend at least a Lott, and 450 Rigby//460 Weatherby is better and flatter. But recoil starts to mount up if one tries to maintain flatness, so that most people prefer limiting the total number of shots with their "thumper" and shooting plains game with a less-auspicious calibre.

Myself, I would be happy hunting with the 375 Ruger, loaded reasonably flat. Yet I am happier with a 416 loaded as flat with heavier, bigger bullets, and inconsistently I built a 500 AR Nyati, well, because "thump" is nice, too. It's all, win-win. Get in lots of shooting and enjoy your safari.

Thanks for the reply 416. The 416 is quite flat with those 350gr TTSX bullets (Bc=.44)...plenty flat out to 300yards, which is about the limit that I think is acceptable for me to be shooting at game. My range that I shoot at regularly goes out to 300 yards, so I would be comfortable with that. Anything further and I would hunt a little more to get closer or pass on the shot for fear of wounding. A man's got to know his limitations.

I agree, the Rigby has the boiler room space to allow for just about anything. Loaded to modern pressures it ain't what it used to be...which was plenty enough.

That twack or thump report back from your target is a great thing to hear !

quote:

While there is no way I would personally be caught shooting a .375 ruger, in reality, from a terminal effectiveness standpoint, there cannot be any difference between it and a H&H.

Question for crbutler only: Is it nostalgia that prevents you from shooting the Ruger over the H&H? I find that mental hurdle fascinating as many people seem to attack or attempt to belittle the new kid on the block that out-shines the tried and true in most all areas. I don't wish to re-hash the merits of one caliber over another, I just find it fascinating how people are of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" camp and un-willing to experiment or try something new, which goes completely against the grain for the majority of us willing to experiment with most anything, necking anything up or down to try to create something slightly different. It evokes so much emotion because it is matched up against the revered H&H...it really gets people riled up.

quote:

Question for crbutler only: Is it nostalgia that prevents you from shooting the Ruger over the H&H?

Some people think older is always better.

The Ruger is the better cartridge but make mine an H&H until ammunition for the Ruger is as readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Dogleg,

congratulations!

jocko shot them with his treasured 270 OM 70's. That said, he did have a guide with a big rifle.

That first good shot is what anchors them, or in your case, kills them dead-dead-dead.

I do hope you had some backup, just in case...

congrats again,

Rich

Didn't have any back-up that morning, just the way it turned out. Oddly I got a grizzly up in Alaska a few years ago and on that instance the guides rifle wouldn't stay cocked when he chambered a shell on the approach.

Since I generally don't have any idea whether a guide or PH can shoot, or whether his gun even works I always just assume that I'm on my own.

it boils down to whether anyone who has a 375 H&H can gain anything by switching to a 375 ruger.
The answer is N-O.

If the cartridge case is such a golly-gee-whizz deal, just buy a 416 Ruger and have the same muscle memory training



Dogleg, good assumption.

[/QUOTE]Didn't have any back-up that morning, just the way it turned out. Oddly I got a grizzly up in Alaska a few years ago and on that instance the guides rifle wouldn't stay cocked when he chambered a shell on the approach.

Since I generally don't have any idea whether a guide or PH can shoot, or whether his gun even works I always just assume that I'm on my own.[/QUOTE]

LOL ! Gee that's a bit tough Mike !

Yep A Frame & Big Bore rule on Buff !

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
it boils down to whether anyone who has a 375 H&H can gain anything by switching to a 375 ruger.
The answer is N-O.

That's a fair assessment for someone invested already. If you already have the H&H the cost to change over may not be worth the numerous advantages that you get with going to the Ruger.

quote:

If the cartridge case is such a golly-gee-whizz deal, just buy a 416 Ruger and have the same muscle memory training.

That makes a lot of sense actually. Good point.

An African Safari is $8k-$100k plus.

If you can hunt africa and you want to take your 375 ruger instead of a 375 h&h - its 1k for gun and 1k for scope.

Unless one gets to doubles and high end custom rifles. The gun and ammo is largely irrelevant to the cost of hunting africa.

But that damn Biebs blaser is expensive.

I need a Blaser - wish they made one is 375 ruger.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:

quote:

While there is no way I would personally be caught shooting a .375 ruger, in reality, from a terminal effectiveness standpoint, there cannot be any difference between it and a H&H.

Question for crbutler only: Is it nostalgia that prevents you from shooting the Ruger over the H&H? I find that mental hurdle fascinating as many people seem to attack or attempt to belittle the new kid on the block that out-shines the tried and true in most all areas. I don't wish to re-hash the merits of one caliber over another, I just find it fascinating how people are of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" camp and un-willing to experiment or try something new, which goes completely against the grain for the majority of us willing to experiment with most anything, necking anything up or down to try to create something slightly different. It evokes so much emotion because it is matched up against the revered H&H...it really gets people riled up.

If you want a 375 with some extra thump over H&H, get a 375 Weatherby. Best of both worlds. I think the 375 Weatherby would be the perfect caliber for lion.

My reasons for " no way " are nostalgia and Bill Ruger's upgefucht with regards to the crime bill back in 94. Since that time, I have not purchased anything new with Ruger on the label. I used to buy a lot of their stuff, but no more. I am not too forgiving that way.

From a more practical side, if I want a more capable .375 bore, there are lots of things that will provide a meaningful improvement on the old .375 H&H. The .375 weatherby, .378 weatherby, .375 RUM, etc. the Ruger only offers the minimal benefit of going in to a very slightly smaller gun, and really no practical velocity benefit over the H&H.

Now, be it far from me to state your preference is bad, but it is a preference, not a substantial difference.

As to ammo availability, I have yet to be in a camp where someone could not scrounge up a few .375 H&H rounds, although other large bores are pretty hit or miss.

I have used the 375 H&H and the 416 Rem. on a lot of buffalo and other DG..The 375 H&H has always performed just fine for me, but I can tell the difference in the 416 Rem as to performance.I used the 350 Woodleighs in my 375 and the 450 Woodleighs in the .416 prior to Geoff ever putting them on the market, and I reported the results to him...

Both work, but I prefer the .416 Rem from every aspect, a 300 or 350 gr. bullet makes it a real good PG caliber, a 400 or 450 gr. Woodleigh makes it suitable for anything that walks..Hard to beat that..thus my choice was made, I think!

I guess if I planned only one or two safaris then I'd just keep my .375 and spend my money on ammo or what not..If I intended to go and shoot a lot of buffalo over an extended time or over a life time, I'd go ahead and buy the 416 Rem...A 416 Rem or 416 Ruger, one's as good as the other. I also prefer the .416 Rem over the .458 Win. by far..If I go with a .458 I'd opt for the 458 Lott, and it shoots 458 Win. also. best of both worlds. Recoil can be a problem however.

what is this "advantage" you speak of? It can't be velocity.

No offense, if you think the 3/8th of an inch shorter case/bolt throw is an issue; you likely couldn't tell the difference if your wienie was that miniscule amount longer or shorter.

Working the bolt in a DG situation, if you practice about five minutes a day with each for a week, you would have a hard time telling the two rifles apart blindfolded.

The only reason to own the ruger over the H&H is personal preference.

I don't want to get dragged into the caliber war that you want (am I being trolled now?), but I'll educate you about the advantages a bit since you asked. All the advantages are all somewhat small, but there are a lot of them. You can crap over them all you want...I know you're gearing up to, but they are all factual advantages. And I may be missing some.

1: The 375 Ruger can do what the H&H can do in a shorter rifle.
2: The 375 Ruger can do what the H&H can do in a lighter rifle.
3: The 375 Ruger can do what the H&H can do in a less expensive rifle, due to the action length.
4: The 375 Ruger has a shorter bolt throw than the H&H.
5: The 375 Ruger has a inherently more accurate case design...there is a shoulder. I'm getting 5-shot groups of 0.75MOA at 200 yards.
6: The 375 Ruger is not a belted round, which for some people is a plus.
7: The 375 Ruger has greater case capacity than the H&H, 99gr vs. 95.3gr H2O.
8: The 375 Ruger can achieve the same velocities as the H&H with reduced pressures.
9: The 375 Ruger can achieve the same velocities as the H&H with a shorter barrel length at those reduced pressures.
10: The 375 Ruger can achieve greater velocities than the H&H at the same pressures with a reduced barrel length...150fps greater with a 300gr bullet. Make the barrel lengths equal and the difference gets a little larger.

Source:
375 Ruger 300gr @ 2810fps 23" barrel
375 H&H 300gr @ 2640fps 24" barrel

Magazine Capacity: This is a push since the belt diameter on the H&H is 0.534" and the case diameter of the Ruger is 0.532". Therefore magazine capacity can be made exactly the same in a similar rifle.

The H&H advantages:

A tapered cartridge does inherently feed better. But we should not discredit a cartridge due to a poorly built or designed rifle. I don't think that's fair at all. A rifle can easily be made to feed this cartridge with 100% reliability, and has (mine works great), so this is a red herring IMO.

It has nostalgia...no doubt. Feelings are strong forces.

And as we discussed, if you are already invested in the H&H the aforementioned advantages to switching to the Ruger may not be enough to matter to some. If you aren't, however, the Ruger just makes more sense to many for all of the above advantages.

I've been on the fence for some time about getting a 416 or 458. I finally threw down the money on Buds and got the Model 70 in 416. I'll see how I do with the recoil, and if its tolerable, maybe I'll move up to the 458. One can not own too many guns, so get a 416, and a 458 if you can afford it!

Umm. You ASKED me to reply.

My .375 shoots .5 MOA to 300 off the bench.

None of the advantages you tout seem significant (or in some cases real) to me.

I feel that there is no real reason from a real world situation to choose one over the other, so it is all personal preference... 3/8" difference? Maybe noticeable for some, not really much in reality. Lighter? In production format, yes. But I am sure you can get someone to make you a sub seven pound H&H. Personally, I would rather not shoot that.

Look, I am agreeing with you that there is no need, as opposed to want, for a .416 for what you have expressed. You will kill whatever you shoot in the right place with your Ruger.

I deliberately decided to go with the H&H over the very similar to the Ruger .375 Dakota mainly due to ammo availability. Dakota was actually trying to convince me that the Dakota was the way to go. Pretty much everything you quote re Ruger is there for the Dakota, except price, but frankly, I made the better choice.

As stated at the beginning of my post:

quote:

All the advantages are all somewhat small, but there are a lot of them.

They are, however, all factual.

Nice shootin crbutler !

Don't overlook the case design chambering as smooth as silk with the H&H. That long sloped case chambers like butter. My 375 Ruger reminds me of a WSM I have. No matter how much work is done on the action those sharper angles result in drag. If I had a buffalo heading my way, I really like how smoothly an H&H functions in the gun. Do yourself a favor and handle some H&Hs and another element may enter the equation.

What gets me is everybody talks about ammo availability. I have never hunted outside of the US. All you hunter's that traveled into other countries how may times have your firearms arrived at destination that you traveled to and your ammo hasn't? Hunting in your own country hopefully you can get reloading supplies to to reload your own. How many time have you traveled to another country and your firearm didn't arrive? What do you do then? Rent a firearm? What is the difference between firearm and ammo then? If you arrive at your hunting destination and either or doesn't show up then rent it. Yes I do have a 375 Ruger and love it. I reload for it. I have about 600rds of cases, primers, powder and bullets.

A lot can happen, when you are taking 3 flights over two days to get to the hunting grounds.

On my last trip to the Caprivi we flew with Lufthansa and our bags arrived on time. The hunters before from the U.S. had their luggage delayed 2 days. The two hunters after us from England had their luggage delayed 4 or 5 days. One of the English hunters was shooting a 458 Lott. I had brought a 458 Lott and a 416 Remington. I gave the English hunter my left over 458 Lott ammo. He was really happy. The other English gentlemen was shooting a 375 H&H, and the PH had several different different boxes of H&H ammo.

In the past, it seems like a lot of the luggage issues that I have heard about, occurred when hunters fly through Joberg.

I see the H&H as having 3 pluses over the Ruger, although in two cases they probably don't manifest in practice.

Firstly, a long tapered case when all else is equal will always be a more reliable feeder. It is simple geometry.

The tapered case in addition does not require as much primary extraction. That is, the distance the case is pulled back when the bolt is opened.

The belted case allows for much sloppier chambering dimensions. Thus dirt in chamber or on ammo etc. will always be less of a problem when you have a sloppy chamber.

Ammunition availability. I see this from two points of view. I have never been to Africa but I am a real guns/ammo nut and the calibre/rifle is not just a means to an end. So in my case if going to Africa I might take a 30-378 and 378 Wby or a pair of 378s with different projectiles. My interest is such that I would be willing to risk ammo availability issues.

Or I might take a 378 and a 375 H&H just for comparison.

My experience in Australia has been that the guns/ammo nut with 375 bore goes with either 375 RUM or 378 Wby and no interest in the 375 Ruger.

As far as sectional density is concerned, I think you'll see that a 350 gr .375, 450 gr .416 and a 550 gr .458 are all very similar. However a lot more than sd is involved in penetration with nose shape being one of the most important factors. Check out Michael458's posts on the subject. He has tried everything and tested bullet performance as much as a guy can. As far as calibers go, I personally think the .458 Lott is the logical step up in power and caliber. I went from .375 H&H to .458 Lott to .500 A-Square. There is a similar power gap between the three and I'm happy with the choice. There's nothing wrong with the various .416's out there and I have friends who swear by them but I opted for the .458 Lott due to the obvious bore and bullet weight gains. With the right bullets, penetration will not be an issue. The .458 Lott is actually pretty versatile too! You can get a surprisingly flat trajectory out of 300-350 gr Barnes TSX bullets and go up to the 500-550 grainers that hit with real authority!! Also check out the great bullets being made by Cutting Edge or North Fork that really add versatility to the big bores. Plus, of course, you can shoot .458 Win mags should you want or need to. There are guys posting here with much more big bore experience than me but I'd go with the Lott with the understanding that getting used to the recoil may take a while (but again, you can start by shooting .458 Winnies) . It's a good big brother to a .375. Just my $.02. Good luck with whatever you choose.

SRS-
On brother and sister rifles I would agree that a natural partner to a 375 H&H is a 458 Lott. Or in modern standard action counterparts, a 375 Ruger and 458 AccRel.

We can go a step further.
The light plains game rifle to complete those in a threesome becomes 30-06 (or 308) --375--458 Lott. That is a pretty awesome partnership.

Those that want a tad more velocity for similar sectional density end up with a threesome of 270--338--416 (handloaded Rigby). We could dub it the "OConnor threesome".

So where does the 500 come in?
A 338WM -- 416 Rigby -- 500 (either AR-Nyati or ASquare or Jeffrey or Gibbs). We could dub it the "Keith threesome". A 338 for deer, 416 for all-around, and a 500 thumper. Even though Elmer liked the 458 for blasting rocks and the 375 for elk, he would have approved of this threesome from an African perspective.

416 TANZAN, that sounds good to me! I like the idea of the O'Connor threesome and the Keith threesome sounds even better! I've yet to kill anything with my .500 A2 but when I get the chance I'll surely do so. I'd probably take it and my .375 H&H on a dg/pg hunt. As far as the .375 Ruger, I think it's a fantastic cartridge that should stand the test of time. When I bought my H&H it didn't exist and I could definitely see owning it and/or the .416 Ruger in the future. Of course that doesn't mean I'll abandon what I've got. Every cartridge mentioned in these posts will do the job fine if the shooter does their part and uses the right bullet for the job. I think it all boils down to what you can shoot accurately and personal preferences. Currently the .375 H&H does seem to hold a significant advantage in ammo availability should a fella lose theirs in a remote or foreign place and that's a good reason, IMO, to carry one on a safari. That said, I'd bet the .375 Ruger will become easier and easier to purchase because of it's obvious attributes and good affordable rifles. I think the .375 or .416 Ruger may be the perfect bear caliber and rifle. However, I liked the earlier models with the Hogue stocks better than the current models. The .375 Ruger vs the .375 H&H debate will go on and on as will the .416? vs .458? vs .500? vs bolt rifle....?.....vs double rifle ????.....and that's a good thing because it keeps interest in firearms going and the dreams alive!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:

Didn't have any back-up that morning, just the way it turned out. Oddly I got a grizzly up in Alaska a few years ago and on that instance the guides rifle wouldn't stay cocked when he chambered a shell on the approach.

Since I generally don't have any idea whether a guide or PH can shoot, or whether his gun even works I always just assume that I'm on my own.[/QUOTE]

LOL ! Gee that's a bit tough Mike !

Yep A Frame & Big Bore rule on Buff ![/QUOTE]

I'm turning into a cynic in my old age.