I've been thinking about getting a 416...leaning towards the 416 remington magnum in a M70. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it really can't do anything that my 375 Ruger can't do.

The 375 Ruger can launch a 350 grain solid at 2450 fps. This bullet has a sectional density of 0.356.

The 416 Rem can launch a 400 grain solid at 2450 fps. This bullet has a sectional density of 0.330.

Penetration is a function of sectional density and velocity, assuming all other things equal...correct? With the higher SD bullet at the same velocity out of the 375 Ruger leads me to believe that it will have better penetration for DG, although it punches a slightly smaller hole (0.041").

The 375 ruger also shoots flatter and will have more energy at distance due to higher BC bullets.

I don't think the step "up" from a 375 Ruger to anything .416 bore makes any sense. What am I missing?

Then go to a 458! :-)

I think since you already have a 375 then a better move would be to get a 458 like Biebs suggested. Probably not enough difference in the 375/416 to justify the purchase unless you just want one for fun.

Lean further....Get a 585 HE...Ed

Is my understanding of the penetration capabilities of these two calibers correct?

Thanks for the replies guys.

Using that simplistic logic, you can convince yourself that a 160 gr bullet out of a 6.5X55 is the ultimate DG medicine. Frontal area counts. Taylor's KO calculation isn't the only consideration but it is informative.

Not to mention you can go to 450 grains in a .416.

But I agree go .458 if you want a bigger hammer.

I have not shot big game but being an Australian means I have probably shot a lot more animals than most Americans and I can tell increase in bore size counts.

But there are a couple of caveats.

Firstly, bullets are equal in shape, expansion characteristics etc.

Secondly is number of animal shot. With smaller calibre changes such as 375 to 416 or 270 to 30 etc. the difference will not show on each shot. It becomes apparent when a number of animals are shot.

In fact if you read AR African Forum you will see where some dropped a buffalo with one shot from a 375 while someone else almost wore out the barrel of their 500 A Square for their buffalo. However, shoot 10 buffalo or 10 deer or whatever and then the difference will become apparent.

Personally, I think you at need least two changes in bore size to see a difference when only a couple of animals will be shot. Such as 375 to 458 or 270 to 338 or 300 to 375 or 416 to 500 etc.

Model 70 in 458. you will love that rifle for many days.
Feeds flawlessly with FN solids and is easy to carry and easier to shoot.

YOu can shoot 315 gr HV/barnes out of it for plains game and 450 gr drive bands for big game.
you cant beat it

Try finding 375 Ruger ammo in the middle of nowhere. Good luck with that one.

Larry, you've taken more Buffalo with your Rifles Inc 416 Rem than most people have seen! :-)

Silly comment Larry. No need to try and bash what I have.

Stay out of the thread if you have nothing of value to add.

youngda9,

If you want something to try, I have a Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby I am considering selling.

I am very fond of the .416 Rem. Took my first ele with it. Incredible combination of momentum and sectional density.

The 350 grain .375, however, has even better sectional density, slightly less momentum at the same velocity.

If you're going to use 350 grain bullets at velocities similar to the .416 standard, there's not enough difference to justify it in my opinion. If you want to "move up", then move up - .458, .474, .500 ....

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Is my understanding of the penetration capabilities of these two calibers correct?

Thanks for the replies guys.

Dr. Kevin Robertson certainly agrees with the sectional density argument. Momentum, the combination of mass and velocity, means much more than velocity alone, or even "energy" for that matter (which is much more heavily weighted towards velocity).

Thanks for the comment nhoro...that seems to be the consensus.

Impala...I considered a .416, and was really close to buying the nicest looking RSM I ever saw for $1250 (I came around too late and lost out on it). I would prefer the 416 rem for the shorter and less beefy action, availability of brass and reloading components, less recoil, cheaper to reload due to less powder, and the availability to find it in a gun store.

I do put some stock in the nostalgia of it (I've read all of the safari writers books, and continue to do so), but came to the conclusion that the more modern cartridges just make more sense for all of the advantages that it has. I made the same assessment when choosing the 375 Ruger over the H&H. The only thing that H&H has going for it is nostalgia. If both cartridges were introduced today, the H&H wouldn't survive. I'm sure that last statement is blasphemy around here, even though it's true.

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Silly comment Larry. No need to try and bash what I have.

Stay out of the thread if you have nothing of value to add.

Larry is not bashing what you have. Ammo availability can be a real issue when hunting in Africa. For a 375, I'm much rather have a 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby. There is lots of 375 H&H ammo floating around in African hunting camps.

Back to original question, I've shot buffalo with 375 H&H, 416 Rem & 416 Rigby. I believe the difference is material. I normally bring a 375 and a 416 on my hunts. The 4 PH's that I've hunted buffalo with, all had big preference for 416's over the 375's on buffalo. I'd lean to a 416 for Buffalo. If you reload, get a 416 Rigby.

If you think you will hunt elephant one day, get a 458 Lott or 450 Rigby/Dakota. My next big rifle will probably be a 450 Rigby/Dakota.

Either round has plenty of penetration. Unfortunately, there is more to it than just penetration. If you have a cow elephant coming at you and you slightly miss the brain I like my chances of getting a second shot with the 416 rather than the 375. The 416 might stun that elephant enough to get you out of trouble. It is doubtful the 375 will. After I shot my fist buffalo I came home and bought a 458 Lott. I want to smack them not punch holes in them!

Yeah Larry!!!

Listen to the kid while he still has all the answers. By time he has made as many African Safaris as you have, he might not.

If he sees no real reason to step up to a 416 he will probably be just fine with the 375.

Me, I'm insecure. I've hauled a 470 NE double, or a 450 Rigby my last two trips for my big rifle.

BTW youngda9: go to either the SCI conference in Vegas, or the DSC in Dallas.
Talk to 50 PH outfits. Ask them if they would prefer you come hunt with your ruger 375 or a 416 remington.

Rich

Circling the wagons, thumping your chest, and slinging veiled insults, eh. I've read enough of your 20,000 "quality" posts to understand exactly where you're coming from...especially your predictions of the death of the 375 Ruger since around 2008, LOL. Nothing of value added on this last post either

Back on topic, if you don't mind. I'll look more into the 458s, as several people have suggested. That seems like the correct next step up in size. The Lott intrigues me, but I'm coming around to think that the 458WM may be good enough (for now, haha).

If a person is looking for "on paper" data rather than real world experience, using the info provided calculated TKO of the .416 is 50, for the .375 it is 45. Is ~10% material? And has been mentioned a person can still go heavier in the .416.

are you out of high school yet?

You might well start by reading your little homilies and take your own advice. It reads like something you first read in an Ann Landers or Dear Abby column.

Nothing insulting yet. You are your own clown show, no need for me or anybody else to help you.

The facts demonstrate that it is becoming apparent here that you are:

a. troll looking for attention.

OR

b. somebody who has about Z-E-R-O real world experience.

Enjoy your 15 minutes of notoriety here, and then go ride your bicycle around the block a couple laps and work off a bit of that self-righteous know-it-all indignation. I know your mom and dad don't let you cross the street without help just yet.

regards,

Rich

PS: Mark Twain once wrote: "when I was sixteen my old man was so stupid, I could hardly stand to be around him, so I left home. Five years later, when I came back to visit, I was amazed to find out how much he had learned.".

Why don't you try that, and report back to the grownups what, if anything, you've learned.

Another "quality" post...no wonder you have 20K posts, that just cracks me up. Thinking that telling everyone that you believe that you are being trolled, and falling for it, was not your brightest move. Bravo for you for being old and having experience, feel better now.

Since you enjoy quotes, Mark Twain also wrote: “It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”

Not really interested in a pissing contest with you. You came into this thread and threw around some veiled insults and offered nothing of value to add, and still haven't for all that I can tell. I was interested in opinions, and you've over-shared yours. Just stop please.

Are they veiled? I must be mellowing out in my old age.

Let me lift the veil for you.

You're a hapless little know-nothing turd, floating in the punch bowl here. You assume that being allowed to hang out with the adults makes you one.

Start by telling us how many trips you've made to Africa, and what big or dangerous game you've killed with your 375 ruger.

regards,

Rich

Getting like the Political Forum or at least a mild version

I hope you feel good enough about yourself now and can stop with the derailing of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Silly comment Larry. No need to try and bash what I have.

Stay out of the thread if you have nothing of value to add.

Really? Not of value? Have you ever tried to buy ammo in Africa? Have you ever been to Africa?

Not in any way putting down what you own. Simply pointing out a real world issue.

I was just in Africa for my 22nd Safari. In fact, I am supposed to be flying home tonight . Left early. We attempted to get some real basic shotgun shells in 12 gauge. Something far more common than a 375 Ruger. It was EXTREMELY difficult to find them. When we finally found a few, they cost 5 times what they cost in the U.S.

I doubt you have ever tried to buy ammo in Africa or you would not have made such a ridiculous comment.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Larry, you've taken more Buffalo with your Rifles Inc 416 Rem than most people have seen! :-)

Now Jon, I have only taken 44 with it .

I've read here and on several other sites that it's showing up in the SA stores. I believe I would pack ammo in each separate luggage item should I take the 375 Ruger with me. There's always rental rifles available (I would enquire) should my ammo OR rifle not show up. I have assessed the odds, read experiences of others, and decided that is a risk I would be willing to take...and am at peace with it. Everything is a risk in some way. The 416 Rigby seems to have the same ammo availability issue. And I believe that from your comment about 12ga ammo that the safe thing is not to count on being able to find most anything in Africa. Fail to plan, plan to fail.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Using that simplistic logic, you can convince yourself that a 160 gr bullet out of a 6.5X55 is the ultimate DG medicine. Frontal area counts. Taylor's KO calculation isn't the only consideration but it is informative.

So true!! A 416 hits harder than a 375...

I would listen to Larry, Youngone. He has been there and done that. I don't think he was being dismissive but giving you something to think about. I have had to purchase 2 boxes of .375 H&H from Dar while I was in the Kilombero. Thank God the two previous hunters had not left Dar or I would have been SOL.

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
I've read here and on several other sites that it's showing up in the SA stores. I believe I would pack ammo in each separate luggage item should I take the 375 Ruger with me. There's always rental rifles available (I would enquire) should my ammo OR rifle not show up. I have assessed the odds, read experiences of others, and decided that is a risk I would be willing to take...and am at peace with it. Everything is a risk in some way. The 416 Rigby seems to have the same ammo availability issue. And I believe that from your comment about 12ga ammo that the safe thing is not to count on being able to find most anything in Africa. Fail to plan, plan to fail.

You haven't read enough. Ammo "showing up in the SA stores", and finding it where you are hunting are two completely different things. And you cannot spread ammo across each luggage item. You will limited to 5kgs of ammo in a locked box. I guess you have never actually taken a flight for hunting trip.

And 416 Rigby ammo is way more available than 375 Ruger. A lot of traveling hunters use rifles in 416 Rigby, 458 Lott and 375 H&H. Most of these hunters give some (or all) of their leftover ammo to their PH.

I wouldn't not be afraid to bring a rifle in an uncommon caliber, but I'd probably pair it with something that is fairly common.

Just my opinion, but I would not hunt dangerous game with a rented rifle. I have seen some pretty awful loaner rifles during my time in Africa.

Funny how I don't see this issue continually pop up in the 416 Taylor, B&M, or anything .500+ threads...much less popular rounds. Yet it is always brought up when talking about either of the Ruger rounds. I believe that I addressed my stance the ammo issue a few posts above.

When you travel with friends and family, there is opportunity to bring extra ammo...just in case.

So many things can go wrong . All bags might not make it. It has happened to me. I have had just my guns and nothing else. Splitting ammo up in 2 bags doesn't help.

Then there is the issue of rifle problems. What happens when one has rifle problems and far more ammo was expended on the range than could ever be imagined . Think it can't happen? I have taken my double(s) numerous times and have never had an issue with the Doktor Optik. Guess what? It happened to both myself and Jeff. Jeff shot the 500NE a total of 18 times on the range. Now you are in the middle of nowhere. You need ammo when you are in the bush. Good luck with anything other than the last most common calibers.

There is also practical problems with travel. Typically I arrive at night. I leave before daylight the next morning before daylight. If my bags are lost , just when can I go to the store even if they are available ?

The easiest ammo to find is 375 H&H and 416 Remington . Sorry, those are the simple facts.

Finally, as far as attempting to find 12 ga shells, it has nothing to do with planning or lack thereof. Hammer everything early and one might want to find something else to do like shoot sand grouse. Adequate planning has zero to do with it.

Ok...heading to Gunbroker.com to sell a few rifles that don't meet your criteria to travel with.

Just kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Funny how I don't see this issue continually pop up in the 416 Taylor, B&M, or anything .500+ threads...much less popular rounds. Yet it is always brought up when talking about either of the Ruger rounds. I believe that I addressed my stance the ammo issue a few posts above.

When you travel with friends and family, there is opportunity to bring extra ammo...just in case.

No youngda9, what is funny is you coming in this forum and trying to convince everyone that a 375 Ruger is a better buffalo caliber than a 416 Rem. Now that is funny!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by youngda9:
Funny how I don't see this issue continually pop up in the 416 Taylor, B&M, or anything .500+ threads...much less popular rounds. Yet it is always brought up when talking about either of the Ruger rounds. I believe that I addressed my stance the ammo issue a few posts above.

When you travel with friends and family, there is opportunity to bring extra ammo...just in case.

Really? You may have given these friends and family the opportunity to be arrested . Many African countries frown on bringing ammo with no gun of the same caliber. There have certainly been some arrests for this very issue. An American booking agent was arrested for bringing 22 magnum ammo but bringing no such rifle.

I guess you do not value your friends or family.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by youngda9:
Funny how I don't see this issue continually pop up in the 416 Taylor, B&M, or anything .500+ threads...much less popular rounds. Yet it is always brought up when talking about either of the Ruger rounds. I believe that I addressed my stance the ammo issue a few posts above.

When you travel with friends and family, there is opportunity to bring extra ammo...just in case.[/QUOTE
Make no mistake. Those rounds are also difficult to find. Some more so than others.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

The easiest ammo to find is 375 H&H and 416 Remington . Sorry, those are the simple facts.

Larry,

He is not interested in facts, or advice. He's looking for people to support his views. This dude has probably never hunted outside of his home county, but he is an expert on buffalo rifles.

Read again Texas...I said no such thing. I was simply asking about the penetration of the two calibers we used to be discussing. Try reading a little slower...and move your mouth less when you do

Larry...if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Nobody said that traveling companions don't also have rifles. I'm sorry that your efforts aren't going to get me to go out and sell my 375 Ruger or not hunt & travel with it. I hope you'll be ok with that, and can let it go. We both heard each other's opinions and know where each other's feet are planted on the issue.

And now (hopefully) back to the topic that was being discussed...but I fear the train may be too far off the tracks for that to be possible due to unsolicited side issues that seem to keep popping up. Maybe not...so be it. I'm done addressing side issues, it's getting tiring with you cowboys circling the chuck wagons.