Michael, how are you? Hope all is well. Quick question for you. On the Safari Raptors (.474) does the polymer tip just improve the BC or does it also aid in accelerating expansion? Thinking about using them in November and wondering if the tip helps for the thinner skin game. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Michael, how are you? Hope all is well. Quick question for you. On the Safari Raptors (.474) does the polymer tip just improve the BC or does it also aid in accelerating expansion? Thinking about using them in November and wondering if the tip helps for the thinner skin game. Thanks.

Doing Peachy Mike, thank you! All is well, getting ready to go slam some buffalo in a couple of weeks or so with Paul in Australia. So getting rifles ready, checking POI on several different bullets I want to play with and such as that......

Let's see if I can answer your Question about how the Talon Tips work, and what they do for the Raptor HPs.........

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does it also aid in accelerating expansion

Per say, it does not "accelerate" expansion or shear. With Tip or without tip, the shear is 1.5-2 inches once inside the cavity. In this mode of operation, the Talon Tips do "Lower" the LVSP, or Low Velocity Shear Point, from what I have tested around on average 100 fps or so. A Plus any way you look at it.

As far as thin vs thick, it does not make any difference, they will shear as long as they impact above LVSP, whether impala or buffalo.

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On the Safari Raptors (.474) does the polymer tip just improve the BC

Both you and I don't give much of a damn about high BC in our Dangerous Game Cartridges, that is not what a DGC is all about. But, on our side of the coin, that gained BC does something big for us with these bullets, within Dangerous Game ranges, 50 yards or less. It gains us "Impact Velocity", in most DG calibers from 125-150 fps more velocity at 50 yards. These bullets take great advantage of any gain in velocity, even 50 fps can be seen in terminals. Trauma up front is increased, and penetration on the backside is increased as well. While they work great at 100-150 fps less, they work a damn sight better at 100-150 fps MORE..... I have seen it in the test work over and over.

But perhaps one of the most compelling tests from the field was last year when Sam took his 500 NE loaded with at that time the brand new 475 gr .510 Raptor, and the older 535 gr Raptor. Now we had just made a few changes in both .500 and .510 caliber by increasing the width of the cavity, to promote a lower LVSP in these calibers. Sam did not have time to work up loads, just receiving the 475s before leaving. So they were loaded the same and came out very close to the same velocity, so the 535s and 475 were running within 25-35 fps of each other, of course with the nod going to the 475s.

The big difference was that the new 475 gr .510 Raptor would take the new Talon Tip designed for that cavity size, the older 535s would not. Sam also was under the impression that the heavier blades on the 535s would be more effective, which I did not concur with, blades slice their way through animal tissue, they don't push their way through, so a 8-9 gr blade does just as well as a 11-12 gr blade, no difference.

Sam also had concerns about the 475s giving enough penetration. What we found time after time after time, was that the 475s at 2170-2200 fps fit with a Talon Tip was not only hitting buffalo harder up front, causing more damage, but also was penetrating completely through buffalo on any angle broadside shot. The reason? It was hitting with an extra 125+ fps at impact. We never recovered ANY of the 475s from buffalo, and we did recover several of the 535s. There was a noticeable difference in reaction of the buffalo taking the 535s and the 475s hitting at higher velocity, even though starting out nearly equal, with the nod going to the 475s and the Talon Tips added.

Yes, the Talon Tip adds BC, this extra BC gives us DG guys not trajectory advantages, but added Impact Velocity, added Trauma inflicted, and added penetration on the back side. The Talon Tip gives us every advantage, and zero down side.

So get the tips and use them would be my advice..............

Michael

Here is a test I conducted last year with two different bullets in .458 caliber.

The two loads on the left are with a 295 gr #13 Raptor, long nose profile, one without talon tips, one with Talon Tip. The one on the far right is a 295 gr #13 Raptor LG... Lever Gun nose profile, but can seat deep in a bolt gun and work with a tip through the magazine.

Now, as you can plainly see, the Long Nose Profile 295 allows for more case capacity, less bullet being in the case. One can increase velocity with this bullet, but cannot use the tip in the magazine, too long overall. The Short Nose LG bullet can be seated very deep, but at the loss of case capacity and starting velocity.





Looking at the data below, the top set of data is with the LG version, and it starts out at 2616 fps at the muzzle, and at 48 yard impact is down to 2486 fps. A total loss of 130 fps at 48 yds.

Now the data below that shows the Long Nose version at a higher velocity as we have more case capacity, and less bullet seated deep. We see the "NO TIP" version starting at 2714 fps, almost a full 100 fps faster on the FRONT END, than the Seated Deep with Talon TIP LG verson! Substantial I'd say.

However, even starting out 98 fps faster on the front end, without that Talon Tip, it has impacted at 48 yards 66 fps slower than the LG version that started out at far less velocity. A total loss in this test of 294 fps..........

Now, we add a talon tip to the Longer Nose Profile version, while it will not fit in the magazine of the bolt guns, it does increase impact velocity substantially. The big velocity increase you see between the two at the muzzle is because my chrono sets 20 feet in front of the muzzle, the talon tips always buy velocity up front, with the same load. Why is the chrono so far ahead... Muzzle blast from many of the big bores I shoot, gotta get out of muzzle blast to get proper readings..... I burn lots of powder!!!!! LOL.....

With the talon tip added, same bullet same load, our impact velocity has increased to 2628 fps in this case, a full 208 fps increase over the same load without the tip added. Extremely effective.




Now to add to this, I run bolt guns, so there are some compromises I have to make, short nose profiles fitting in the magazines and so forth....

You double guys do not suffer that compromise, regardless of nose profile, you can add that tip and roll on, you don't have a magazine to fit into.............

Good info Michael, that is exactly what I was looking for. I could not envision that the tips would have a downside. I like the idea of it allowing the bullet to hold more velocity down range since that also has to help ensure that you impact at a velocity exceeding the shear point.

Besides, you omitted one of the principle advantages of using the tips: Load the Safari Raptors in .474 into a .470 NE with the .470's 3 1/4" case and you have a cartridge that looks like a darn intercontinental ballistic missile.

Thanks again. Have a good time in Aussie, shoot straight.

I think I'm seeing something similar with my 300 WM. The 145 grain ESP Raptors hit an inch higher at 100 yards with the tip added versus no tip and the same powder charge. I haven't had a chance to test my Raptors being loaded as a solid, but would I expect the solid to hit the same POI as loaded with the hollow point without the tip?

I'm planning on using this "soft/solid" combo in RSA in June as I'll be after normal PG some of the little guys like red duiker, cape grysbok, etc.

I agree with what Michael said about the tips. Even at close range 50 yards the tip make a huge difference in impact effect of the bullets. I would have never believed that a lighter bullet leaving the muzzle at same speed as a heavier one would penetrate deeper and kill better than a heavier one. I saw it and now want a tip in my Raptors for everything. I wanted them on my solids so bad that Michael and I machined tips to glue onto the nose of the solids to see if it could be done. After firing the tip spun off the bullet as it left the barrel and was seen spinning like a top on the floor in front of shooting bench a minute after the shot. That was a wild sight! Oh I wish I could get a tip for my solid that would come off with it hit the target and not hurt the penetrating of the bullet. This is what Michael and I wanted to test. If you could retain more speed on target without hurting the penetrating ability of the solid. You would and your cake and be able to eat it.
YES USE TIPS IF YOU CAN!!

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I haven't had a chance to test my Raptors being loaded as a solid, but would I expect the solid to hit the same POI as loaded with the hollow point without the tip?

Graybird......

When most of the ESP Raptors are turned around and used as a solid, you normally don't seat as deep, and then the HP being down also increases case capacity. Now, this reduces pressures/velocity as well, and if
you use the exact same powder charge, then you will get less velocity because of the increased capacity created. Up your charge by a grain, or even two, to equal things out a bit more. You will probably still be less velocity even then, but POI will be closer.....

quote:

Besides, you omitted one of the principle advantages of using the tips: Load the Safari Raptors in .474 into a .470 NE with the .470's 3 1/4" case and you have a cartridge that looks like a darn intercontinental ballistic missile.
Thanks again. Have a good time in Aussie, shoot straight.

Mike... Spot on.. They do look wicked when tipped!



Sam... You are supposed to be in Norway right now? Whats with that?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
I haven't had a chance to test my Raptors being loaded as a solid, but would I expect the solid to hit the same POI as loaded with the hollow point without the tip?

Graybird......

When most of the ESP Raptors are turned around and used as a solid, you normally don't seat as deep, and then the HP being down also increases case capacity. Now, this reduces pressures/velocity as well, and if
you use the exact same powder charge, then you will get less velocity because of the increased capacity created. Up your charge by a grain, or even two, to equal things out a bit more. You will probably still be less velocity even then, but POI will be closer.....


Michael

I've got a another set of loads made up to start all over again and work my way up. I'm hoping I can find something to go along with the HP w/ tips. I've settled on 74.0 grains of Ramshot Hunter with this load and getting roughly 0.75" groups at 3270 fps. Going with high powder charges have not increased my velocity and groups are acceptable. Looking forward to what the solids will do.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I agree with what Michael said about the tips. Even at close range 50 yards the tip make a huge difference in impact effect of the bullets. I would have never believed that a lighter bullet leaving the muzzle at same speed as a heavier one would penetrate deeper and kill better than a heavier one. I saw it and now want a tip in my Raptors for everything. I wanted them on my solids so bad that Michael and I machined tips to glue onto the nose of the solids to see if it could be done. After firing the tip spun off the bullet as it left the barrel and was seen spinning like a top on the floor in front of shooting bench a minute after the shot. That was a wild sight! Oh I wish I could get a tip for my solid that would come off with it hit the target and not hurt the penetrating of the bullet. This is what Michael and I wanted to test. If you could retain more speed on target without hurting the penetrating ability of the solid. You would and your cake and be able to eat it.
YES USE TIPS IF YOU CAN!!

I suggested this a couple times. have a non shearing hole so same BC. you could make the solids and Noncons the same weight as well. have a smaller front hole on the solid and make a concave base but keep the bearing surface the same.