I'm looking for a elephant load....so for SOLIDS is there any advantage in using a 550 grain SOLID over a 500 grain SOLID in .458 caliber (450 Rigby)?

I can understand the advantage of a HEAVY for caliber in a SOFT, but is there a adavantage with the SOLID?

I'm reloading for a 450 Rigby, so it has the case capacity to handle the heavier 550 grain bullet, but do I really need it?

My rifle currently shoots the 500 grain Northfork SOLID and the 500 grain Cutting Edge SOLID to the same point at 50 yds.....giving me one ragged hole at 50 yards.......should I try the 550 grain bullets or call it good?

MHC TX

I have been waiting around for someone to give you a proper answer, but no one has yet, and I can't stand it anymore!

You know where I stand!

You don't need a 550, not with a 500 North Fork, or a 500 or 480 BBW#13 Solid. Just no reason for it, you already can shoot from ass to nose!

But don't take my word for it! Surely someone else can vouch for that?

Michael

The real question is, will a 550gr. solid give you better/straighter penetration than your current bullet choice?

Maybe.

Seriously, if your .450 Rigby has a typical twist, it should stabilize that 500gr. solid well enough.

George

I just used the CEB #13 480gr from my .458Lott on a tuskless cow. Blew out the left shoulder, passed through the girth and came to rest just under the skin of the right shoulder. Anchored her to the spot when the left front leg could not support her weight - that was exactly the reason for the shoulder shot. The recovered bullet showed no changes other than the rifling.

It doesn't get any better than that.

I prefer heavy bullets for heavy rifles for heavy game.

Shootaway-

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall you have VERY limited experience with dangerous game and most of your big bore shooting has been done at paper, yes? If that is the case, then perhaps your preferences are irrelevant to the question posed.

If I have you confused with some other AR poster, please excuse me, but since many inexperienced african hunters, which by my humble belief equates to one with fewer than six safaris in at least four different sub-Saharan countries and having taken not less than 4 head of DG and 20 head of PG, choose to post on AR as experts, you will appreciate my confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Just no reason for it, you already can shoot from ass to nose!


Michael

This was also my thought......sounds like I'm done......Thanks

There are plenty of Mikes on this thread so I will add one more.

MHC Mike

The 500 Grain Flat Nose solids will serve you well. I flattened a North Fork solid on a big buffalo last year and was a little dissapointed although it killed the buffalo This year I shot a couple of buff with no issues. Next year I will use the Cutting Edge Brass Bullets for elephant.

When are you headed back to Africa? The hunt you did with Adam a couple years back has always stood out as one of the best posted on AR IMO.

Mike458

It must have taken great restraint to wait 3 1/2 hours to reply.

Mike Lionhunter,

I have only hunted four times in three sub-Saharan countries but am in the double digits in DG, hope my opinion counts.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

Mike Lionhunter,

I have only hunted four times in three sub-Saharan countries but am in the double digits in DG, hope my opinion counts.

Not a rule nor an absolute. Just seems that sometimes the "expert opinions" turn out to be very much opinion with very little expertise. You clearly grasp the situation; wish everyone did. Besides, I'm cranky and grumpy as I am healing very slowly from an injury suffered during my Zim Ele hunt a week ago; the inactivity is making me pissy.

You are a little grumpy, hopefully you feel better soon.

I hope an elephant did not step on you!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
There are plenty of Mikes on this thread so I will add one more.

MHC Mike

The 500 Grain Flat Nose solids will serve you well. I flattened a North Fork solid on a big buffalo last year and was a little dissapointed although it killed the buffalo This year I shot a couple of buff with no issues. Next year I will use the Cutting Edge Brass Bullets for elephant.

When are you headed back to Africa? The hunt you did with Adam a couple years back has always stood out as one of the best posted on AR IMO.

Mike458

It must have taken great restraint to wait 3 1/2 hours to reply.

Mike Lionhunter,

I have only hunted four times in three sub-Saharan countries but am in the double digits in DG, hope my opinion counts.

Mike,

I would like to see a picture of that bullet - if you have one.

I'm past ready to go back to Africa.....only have interest in elephant and buffalo at this point.

I would like to see my wife kill a lion....she talks about it, but it's up to her.

Mike

All 500 Grain North Fork from my 470 Nitro

Left to right

Shot in test media, shot in test media, shot in buffalo, shot in buffalo.



I am not sure what bones the bullet hit. The skinners gave them to me the next day.

I don't know Shootaway or his experience level. But I have to ask, was his statement so offensive that he deserved to be publicly "Bitch Slapped" like that? This is a public forum to have fun expressing and listening to others' ideas, right?

I'm sorry for jumping in like this and I guess I'm opening myself up for the same treatment but I saw another guy get handled in this same manner on another thread a few days ago by a fellow who has extensive experience and I just thought it was uncalled for. Shootaway simply stated he likes heavy bullets in heavy guns for the big stuff. It's not like he stated that he has extensive Elephant experience and based on his experience, soft nosed bullets are fine for them and everyone should follow his example. Something of that nature would be dangerous info and could get someone hurt if followed, but not this.

His statements were more along the line of saying that he prefers the 416's to the 375's on buff and because a guy with a lot of buff experience has used the 375 extensively, now pronounces anyone with a preference for the 416 as unqualified to speak on the subject and should therefore keep his mouth shut! Why is that attitude necessary?

Ok so I meet some of your experience qualifications and miss some others so maybe I have a right to open my mouth and maybe not. 6 Safaris in 2 Sub-Saharan African countries, 13 head of DG (300H&H, 375H&H, 416 Rigby, 500NE, 500 Jeffry), 36 head of PG, plus 2 trips to Russia for 2 Coastal Brown Bear (375H&H and 416 Rigby).

By the way, I prefer the standard weight bullets instead of the super heavies. 300gr for 375, 400 gr for 416, 570 for 500NE. They seem to have worked well for years for others and have worked well for me in my limited experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I don't know Shootaway or his experience level. But I have to ask, was his statement so offensive that he deserved to be publicly "Bitch Slapped" like that? This is a public forum to have fun expressing and listening to others' ideas, right?

Yes.

I agree that sometimes on forums you get "wannabees" giving advice to everyone on everything
without having done anything themselves BUT

I thought that was way over the top.

You don't need to have been there and done that to comment, at the same time not being too overbearing in your opinion.

Apart from Elephants and a few other specialist animals, shooting them is not brain surgery and listening to and talking to others, watching the numerous good DVD's, reading the numerous good books on the subjects and then doing some field work (which hopefully confirms your theories and why you chose XYZ bullet / calibre).

Just my HO.

Edit
what has and 20 head of PG got to do with this topic ?
.
.

quote:

Mike458

It must have taken great restraint to wait 3 1/2 hours to reply.

Mike, it was more than I could bear, I am surprised I could make it 3.5 hours! LOL...... I was hoping someone else would take the lead!


MHC

There is one point that is missing thus far, and the capacity of your big 458---Velocity! Please do not misunderstand, I am and never have been one of those "Velocity Freaks" that believes you must have the highest velocity possible to accomplish a mission, just not so. Much that can be done with velocity can also be done in caliber. Many times velocity is not your friend either, depending of course on the bullet itself, as all have their limits.

That said, one must understand that some bullet designs react well with velocity. Two that you mention above, the North Fork and the BBW#13, both react well with added velocity, to a reasonable point. Meaning that more velocity with these bullets will give you deeper straight line penetration per given bullet. 2200 fps will penetrate deeper than 2000, 2400 fps will penetrate deeper than 2200 fps. All fine and good, as even at 2000 fps with either North Fork or BBW#13, you already have more than enough penetration to accomplish any mission with the heavies, elephant, buffalo, and hippo. What the extra velocity buys you much more of is trauma inflicted upon entry. This is real, this is not fantasy or speculation, the higher velocity bullet hammers the hell out of them, and it's very noticeable in the reactions of all three, elephant, buffalo, and hippo. Trauma to tissue and internal organs is increased as well. Point being, in your hi capacity 458 I would think you could easy run 2400 + fps in that cartridge, and the extra velocity won't hurt you. No, you don't need more, but more buys you a good bit on the business end of things, if you are willing to tote the heavy weight around, I am not in most cases willing to do so, not for long anyway. You don't need more than you can handle either. Point in fact, I was running my 500 MDM at getting upwards of 2475 fps with a 500 gr BBW#13, shooting great, and hammering hell out of test medium and driving deep. But it was way more than I needed, and I slowed it down to 2380 fps for my trip in June. I handled the rifle better at 2380 than I did at getting close to 2500! And 2380 is way more than enough, but it hammered hard and showed. Needed, no, benefits, yes.

Another factor in hitting hard up front is meplat size! 65% + meplat of caliber does wonders and this shows in the field as well. It's easy to see animal reactions to taking these bullets.

I had a 550 gr bullet made for my 500 MDM in the beginning, and after a lot of experimenting decided that was just not needed, even in .500 caliber, which my 500 gr .500s have far less SD than your .458 500s! SD being at the bottom of the list on important factors to consider. Just before leaving in June I contacted Dan for a 550 BBW#13, as I just wanted to satisfy a curious nature I have, and in addition have data for those that believe a 550 gr or heavier bullet is needed in .500 caliber, which it is not, if the bullet design is a proper nose profile and meplat size. And in particular in .458 caliber a 550 is never needed in my opinion, I normally run 450s in my 458 B&M, and they will zip through buffalo from either end, hippo, and I have seen, not done, but seen them zip through elephants broadside, at 450 grs! No my man, I think your 500 gr BBW#13s are a plenty. Personally I like the 480 version some better than the 500. And of course, I like the 450s in the limited capacity cartridges, such as 458 Winchester and my own 458 B&M. Plenty of punch and no sacrifices.

That's my 2 cents worth, and it's worth what you paid! LOL........

Now hopefully to calm things a bit, our boy Lionhunter just returned from a very successful mission, but injured in the process, as he well admits a bit grumpy and pissy from all that. I know exactly how he feels, as I went through a lot of the same thing for damn near 15+ days and still had to hunt! Wake up screaming in the night because a nerve was doing it's damn best to pull the muscle completely out of my left leg! Rough business for sure!

Our boy shootaway, while a good chap, has a habit of bringing out the worst in folks sometimes, and although Shoots and I get along great, and we are buds, I admit freely there have been many times I wanted to put the choke hold on him myself! HEH HEH...... But you must also know, I am convinced he does this on purpose as well! I think shootwhichway gets a kick out of getting our danders up sometimes!

Not defending either or, nor condemning either or, just this is the way it is. I think these things can be overlooked and continue forward. I do admit however I did get a chuckle out of it, as I am sure Shootwhichway did as well! LOL..........


500N, shootem with a big proper FN solid in the brain, not much need for any Brain Surgery after that, if the brain remains at all???



M

I personally prefer my 40cal+ bullets traveling between 2100fps and 2300fps so in the big 450Rig I would use Woodeigh 550grn bullets.
Slow and heavy when after Elephant in the thick Jess is my thoughts.
But those North Fork FNS and Cup Points seem to work well. I will be trying them with my 458Win and 470. Again at around 2150fps velocity.

My MV is around 2400fps based on the load data I used to develop the load. I haven't chronographed this load in my rifle yet, but will. This is a new rifle and I was playing with 6 different loads (three different powders and two different SOLIDS....Northfork & Cutting Edge)......all were loaded to a estimated "book" velocity of 2400fps.

I was shooting off a bench and the first mission was to find a accurate load that regulated with the iron sights. I was lucky, as I found one powder that regulated both the 500 grain Northfork and Cutting Edge solids to the same point. After I found "the SOLID load(s)" that regulated with the iron sights, I put the scope on and shot a three shot group for accuracy.....lucky again, as I was getting one hole groups at 50 yards with both bullets.

If I tried the 550 grain bullets I would still have the issue of iron sight regulation, since my MV would be around 2300fps.

Also, the 500 grain Northfork and Cutting Edge solids feed like glass in my rifle......so good to go in that department.

I have decided to stay with the 500 grain solid. I will move on to the SOFT......really like the Northfork SOFT and I will also play with the Northfork Cupped Point solid.

Sidenote - I didn't find the recoil off the bench (500 grain bullet, ~2400fpsMV, & 10-3/4# rifle) to be "that bad".....I was wearing one of those magnum pussy pads, so didn't even get a bruise.



On this other matter of "he said - she said".......it's easier to just "filter" the data than to get in a cat-fight. We all develop a cowboy vs buck-o-roo sence through time, but if someone wants to get-their-panties in a wad, so be it.

MHC

Sounds like to me you have everything working dead on spot on, and zero issues with any of the bullets you are working with. I see no reason to have any concerns! Good to Go!

Michael

quote:

I have decided to stay with the 500 grain solid. I will move on to the SOFT......really like the Northfork SOFT and I will also play with the Northfork Cupped Point solid.

You'll do just fine with the NF SS and CPS. But, you might want to try the CEB BBW#13 HP NonCon as welll as the CEB BBW#13 Carnivore that is finishing testing on as well. Very likely they'll shoot to an almost one hole group as well.. Then between CEB and NF you'll be set for anything you might ever encounter.

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
I was wearing one of those magnum pussy pads, so didn't even get a bruise.

You really should mount the rifle on your shoulder and not your vagina.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
I was wearing one of those magnum pussy pads, so didn't even get a bruise.

You really should mount the rifle on your shoulder and not your vagina.

MHC,

You gotta love it when friends are so kind!

Also I am green with envy, a wife that talks about taking a lion. Now that is propper!

Many Thanks

HBH

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
I was wearing one of those magnum pussy pads, so didn't even get a bruise.

You really should mount the rifle on your shoulder and not your vagina.

Even if it is a "magnum" one?

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
I was wearing one of those magnum pussy pads, so didn't even get a bruise.

You really should mount the rifle on your shoulder and not your vagina.

I also have one of those "thin pussy pads" for the light days......contemplated trying to wear "both" at the same time for the 1st shot off the bench, but couldn't figure out "how" to get everything stapped on. For the next bench session, I'm going to take a couple of asprin ahead of time, so I can shoot more than 15 shots.....should also help with the bloating.

Damn, some of you guys are rough.
I used a Barnes Banded Solid in my .470 Nitro on my elephant(tuskless) and she was DRT. Classic butt on the ground and then the front shoulders and head. Exit on the off side. Can't complain about penetration and bullet performance.

I don't know much, but I do know that more in the way of diameter means more than more merely in the way of weight.

In other words, greater diameter and a cetain par for diameter weight are better than lesser diameter and a heavier for lesser diameter weight, IMHO.

So before I would go merely heavier, I would go bigger around first, and also heavier, of necessity, by the way, and more to the point.

And all else being equal, bigger (in both diameter and weight, of course) and faster are better than a slower throw of the same diameter and weight. This is very important, IMHO.

I finished with the 450Rigby load development today.....sticking with 500 grain bullets across the board.

The Cutting Edge solid, Northfork solid and Northfork Cuppoint all shoot to the same point at 50 yards.

The Northfork bonded soft is 1" high to the solids.

Going to take these loads to Africa in 3 weeks for a toothless elephant & buffalo.......tired of killing paper.

This rifle has been real easy to sort out......all of the loads are with RL-17.

I have mostly used the GS customs flat nose solids and they perform..The NOrth Fork pictured above seems to me it could be a North Fork cup point not a flat nose solid, but I could be mistaken..That expansion is what I see in every cup point I have shot into a buffalo and the cup point is my all time favorite bullet for anything with a big bore..It kills like a soft and penetrates nearly as well as a solid.

I would use the 550 gr. bullet myself, mostly because I have had such outstanding luck with the 350 gr. 375 and 450 gr. Woodleighs in the .416 and 404s..The are incredibly great bullets, and I see no reason why they would not be just as good in the 458s or 500s.

I see a lot of posts claiming the 500s are just as good, but none of us have tried the 550s so how can one make such a judgment. If one is satisfied with 500s so be it and thats understandable, but I personally am on a mission, I always want to know whats best, so I try out anything new that looks good to me, thus my success with heavy for caliber bullets mentioned..

You would be hard pressed to find a better bullet for buffalo than a 350 gr. 375 or a 450 gr. 400 Woodleigh PP, it penetrates like the dickens and knocks BIG bloody holes in both sides of a buffalo..

To each his own, but you will never know until you try them.

As one who has used the 550 grain Woodleigh RN solid out of a Lott at 2,150 fps on five elephants, you can count me in with Shootaway as a big believer in very heavy for caliber bullets. I have tried most of the bullets mentioned here on elephant and can say that the 550 gave me more penetration and straight line penetration than any of the others. Soft tissue penetration is one thing but the real penetration test in my mind is the quartering head shot or from the crown of the head down. The 550 grain Wooldeigh is the only one to consistently exit on these shots. As Michael said, any of these bullets have more than enough penetration to take any elephant on a reasonably angled shot. In some cases, as I have stated here many times, you can have too much penetration.

Another advantage of these heavy bullets is the added thump, shock or brain scrambling ability of these heavy bullets. It is very evident to those that have used them.

465H&H

465H&H,
And they are incredibly accurate! they make a 416 out of a .375; a 458 out of a .416; "for all practical purposes" so they just have to make a 505 out of a 458 Lott!!

Of course that only my opinnion.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have mostly used the GS customs flat nose solids and they perform..The NOrth Fork pictured above seems to me it could be a North Fork cup point not a flat nose solid, but I could be mistaken.

Ray,

As I posted the picture above is a flat nose solid.

This is a cup point dug out of the same buffalo (Bullet on left was from test media, bullet on right from buffalo)