Two slightly different exposures of the same items:
Hacksaw-sectioned case heads and dummy rounds.

I weighed ten cases of each make for average:
Norma = 221.9 grains
Hornady = 212.4 grains

The Hornady case head is thicker.
The loaded brass is the same outside diameter at the neck with Hornady or Norma.
The Norma is subjectively softer to my hacksaw.
The Norma case bulges below the bullet base in the seater die.
The Hornady brass maintains that original taper, just waiting for a fire forming.

Hornady wins.

RIP,

Older Norma brass is lighter than newer Norma brass. If memory serves ... it weights about 202 grains. The newer Norma stuff weighs a lot more like RWS brass.

So it might be a good idea to weigh any new or x1 brass you pick up along the way.

Dr. RIP-N-Stein's all night diner and Wildcat Lab is open tonight!!

quote:

Dr. RIP-N-Stein's all night diner and Wildcat Lab is open tonight!!

Here, here.

Ah!
Constructive comments from mstarling!
Thank you!

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
RIP,

Older Norma brass is lighter than newer Norma brass. If memory serves ... it weights about 202 grains. The newer Norma stuff weighs a lot more like RWS brass.

So it might be a good idea to weigh any new or x1 brass you pick up along the way.

The brass I weighed is all new, unprimed, never fired. I heard about some improvements in the new versus old Norma 9.3x75R brass.

I doubt that i will be using any Norma 9.3x74R brass for the 400/.395 Nitro Express "Aboriginal."

The new Norma brass may be a little thicker in the wall near the head, the "web" area, than Hornady. No measurement, just eyeball.

However, the Hornady brass is greatly thicker in the head itself and radiused where the case body meets the head, in an obviously stronger case head design.

And, the Hornady brass is at least as thick at the neck, maybe .0005" thicker, but beyond my ability to measure.

All of the 400/.395 NE dummy necks measure .415" to .416" OD, more often .416" with Hornady, more often .415" with Norma, using the S&H SHark Velopex 310-grainer for the dummies, smooth and easy seating.

There is plenty of neck room in the current 400/.395 Nitro Express chamber reamer from Dave Manson for use of either Hornady or Norma brass.

I am thinking that the Hornady brass may be better due to the thicker head. The case wall thickness seems adequate everywhere, and the necks may even be a little thicker, though certainly not too thick.

$23.49/20 is the price of the Hornady brass from Midway.

Thanks for the info, RIP. Am waiting for my Hornady brass to arrive. Should be here tomorrow. My dummies were made up with the Norma brass (older cases from IS). They did not show the bulge below the bullet as is shown on your new 9.3x74R Norma brass.

Max,
Maybe I screwed up. Glad you got a prettier result with Norma. Did it look like the Hornady hourglass dummy?

Besides the IMPROVED case head design of the Hornady brass, is the brass alloy itself better than Norma's or did I just get soft brass due to annealing of the Norma case I used?

Variable annealing on these lots of brass?

Should be nothing that some work hardening from fire forming won't fix, eh?

After the cases are formed and toughened up to 10.03x74R conformation, an annealing of the necks after every 3 firings should make them last a lllooonnnggg time.

There will be very little working of this brass by resizing and seating bullets in it, after it is formed by firing in a 400/.395NE.

There is adequate taper of the straight-sided case, but it will be prone to lengthening, thinning, and needing trimming, so it may not last forever.

Should be very easy to grow to a full 3" case length.

You guys gonna have some proper brass made somewhere? Jamison or Horneber (exchange rates very painful).

Yes, one of these days, proper brass, but I have half a dozen other custom cases I need made up with proper headstamp. We do not order 10,000 pieces at a pop while the rifles are incubating. Not that important at the moment.

".395 Ruger" and ".398 Lapua Mag." are easy with the stroke of an engraving tool, modifying one character.

"9.3x74R" to "400/.395 NE" is trickier.

boomstick once suggested "9.8x74R" as the easy headstamp, but we would much rather see the more reality based "10.03x75R" if going metric.

Max might even want to engrave his rifle "400 Nitro Express 3-Inch Aboriginal."

"400NE" might be the best head stamp.

This is the cartridge that has best claim to that headstamp, should have been but never was. There can be only one "400 Nitro Express." This is it.

RIP, I don't have the Hornady brass yet, but the Norma cases I made up look like your Hornady or better. Yeah, fire forming and loading should work harden the Norma cases. The idea of 3" case length is appealing, but will keep to whatever is necessary.
Custom cases in .400NE would be great, but as long as I can load the 9.3x74R cases, I'm fine. I agree that .400 Nitro Express is THE name.
Now, making my .375 Ruger cases into .395 Ruger works also, and will suffice for getting ammo through customs in any African country. The headstamp thing, while nice and orderly, is not a priority.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
RIP, I don't have the Hornady brass yet, but the Norma cases I made up look like your Hornady or better. ...

Maybe I just squeezed those necks too much and bulged the cases. Good work if you did better.

Yeah, fire forming and loading should work harden the Norma cases. The idea of 3" case length is appealing, but will keep to whatever is necessary.
Custom cases in .400NE would be great, but as long as I can load the 9.3x74R cases, I'm fine. I agree that .400 Nitro Express is THE name.

Maybe there is some 9.3x74R basic cylindrical out there with no headstamp? Do I recall ISS mentioning that in the past?

There is some basic that goes out to 3.5" for that "Everlasting?"

400NE would be a great headstamp.

Get some basic brass and make up a Headstamping Die for your press eh??

A really long expander rod might help the bulging problem.

RIP,
Hmmm. Yeah, correct headstamped brass would be classier. I'm already looking at one of the canvas buffalo shooting belts used now by 'cowboy event' shooters. Got a guy near here who custom makes them.
FLASH! What size do you want? I owe you!

I must say that I am pleased to see the 400 Nitro Express come back to life through this forum and the hard work/OCD of a few brave souls here

Round lead balls for squirrels to flat nose solids for Elephant... well done!

Max,
I like the cheap nylon web belts and nylon and elastic belt slides. They don't corrode my brass. However, a 36" belt size would be comfy. I am trying to reduce, not quite Elvis-size, yet.

boomstick,
Please show me where there was ever a 400 Nitro Express. This is the old BP cartridge that failed to make the jump to full Nitro Express with heavy bullets and heavy charges.

There were 400 Nitro for Black Powder 3" loads with 230-grain/.395-caliber bullets.

There was the 400 Purdey 3" Light Rifle Express of same bullet weight and velocity but bastardized to .405" diameter.

Etc. ...

I appreciate the nicety of your congratulations but you bobbled a wee bit on a technicality.

Old Cordite just could not make the jump to Nitro Express with a heavy bullet in this case.
Modern powders allow it with conventional 410-grain/.395-caliber bullets.

Modern powder AND modern monometal bullets of 310 to 340-grain weight in .395 will make this outshine any other "bastardized" 400.

No fillers needed.

....So this 400 Nitro would fit on a light weight Merkel or Hyem reciever from a 9.3x74R ?? Just have a set of barrels made up ..That would be handy ..

What ballistics do you think it will produce ?

We ought to get 2150 fps with a conventional410-grain .395 in a 1:12" TWIST barrel of 26" length and 50,000 psi.
330-grain monometals at 2400 fps: Voila! The totally modern double rifle, born of an antique that never made the Nitro Express transition previously.

Brass good.
Ruger No.1 good.
Searcy or Merkel SXS DR ... a dream double of 8 pounds?

El rippo...

I would have figured a few brave souls would have put modern powders in the ol' 400 bpe but since the # of rifles made was so low and propellents were so underwhelming for the case back then it just did not take off but pure conjecture on my part. Mea culpa

Anyhoo I handled a heym 9,3x74 at the shot show and yes...what a package that would be... so easy to carry and in equal to the old 450/400.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
El rippo...

I would have figured a few brave souls would have put modern powders in the ol' 400 bpe but since the # of rifles made was so low and propellents were so underwhelming for the case back then it just did not take off but pure conjecture on my part. Mea culpa

Anyhoo I handled a heym 9,3x74 at the shot show and yes...what a package that would be... so easy to carry and in equal to the old 450/400.

Boomie...was that 9.3X74R a Heym 26 O/U ?

The world's first 400 Nitro Express (Unadulterated) is nearing completion. All that remains to be done is polishing and bluing of the fixtures that go on the stainless 27" barrel of this Ruger No.1 in 400/395NE.

RIP,
Waiting with baited breath (been eating shrimp and crab legs) on the results of your rifle.
Got my Hornady brass and some cast bullets, so now must develop some loads.
Max

"She" Is finally coming along, the 400 NE "Unadulterated."

I had to get the gunsmith's attention by offering to buy one of his custom flintlocks that shoots .395 balls, AND to pick "her" up when I pick up the 400NE.

That will make a nice pose on a bison skin rug, a couple of rifles, a "40" and a "400," named Bess and Elvira.

Ahhh, Bess! The classical name for a front stuffer.
Now, Elvira conjures up a lady of the Dark Hours. One of beauty and great killing power.

Max,
Should be some good gunporn, eh?

About the headstamps and rifle engraving:
"400 Nitro Express"
"400/395NE"
"9.3x74R10" (easy to fit on existing headstamp) = 9.3x74R/10mm. Close enough to 10.03mm. 10mm for headstamp purposes.

She's a Ten, even without all the fancy engraving on your Ruger No.1.

If you really want the "Elvira" I'll go with "Elaine."
Let me know, Max.

Should be outstanding gunporn!
I think the idea of using 9.3x74R10 or 9.3x74R/10mm seems to be a stroke of genius. My first choice would be the "R10" to fit on current cases.

Ahh Elvira. You chose her already so you have first dibs on her. I'm thinking of Lilly as in Lilly Langtry, the nightengale of the times.
Max

Gotta get a bucket load of 10mm 200 Grain TMJ's and sort the fat ones from the skinny ones. Surely a large portion would be the correct diameter and cheap.

Yep,
B-Max bullets has already started working on the 10mm pistol bullet angle.
Actually they are .400" aren't they? Not true 10mm, a little over-size for .395-caliber, but easy to squeeze down in the Lee sizing dies ala B-Max bullets, and STP Oil Treatment used as lube. You can use the whole bucket full of bullets. No waste!

Lilly Langtree will be appropriate for the Western Vamp Rifle. I got Elvira as sung by the Eastern Oak Ridge Boys, and the TV Vamp.

BTW, thanks to Will for suggesting "9.3x74R/.395" which translated into "9.3x74R10.03mm" then more simply "9.3x74R10" for easy headstamp to match a metric designation for the 400/395NE, until proper brass is available.

"R10" is short for, as Max has alluded, "Rimmed Ten ."

Max,
I'll show you mine if you show me yours: R10
Soon!