Ever notice how the upper end boutique companies many of us rely upon have a difficult time making a go of it?
Kimber (Oregon)
Dakota
North Fork
Barnes
Swift
Rigby Cal.
PH actions

All these companies make excellent products however all have fallen on hard times and either closed up shop or had to sell out. It is tough to offer a one off product in this business and make a living. I have been led to believe Empire is having a hard time delivering product however, I do not know if it is financial or just supplier issues.
I know that the Rigby thing is going to set some folks off, but it fits into the category.
Mr. Searcy has been able to hold on but he does not try and mass market his products.
It takes a lot of time, effort and financial backing to make a go of it in a small business in this industry.
The folks on this forum are such a small % of the market that see value in these offerings. Need deep pockets, tough skin and a lot of desire.

No argument with anything you have written - absolutely true on all counts.

BUT

Companies like American Hunting Rifles which provide excellent products, great return on investment and do so in a timely fashion tend to stay in business when others fail. My family's small contracting business (for which I worked my way through HS, college and med school as a roofer) did well when others floundered because my uncles knew that rule of business. Give people what they want, give them a good deal and do it quicker than promised.

Wayne is a good business man and a gentleman to boot.
Although I believe he has identified a method to be successful and that is by enhancing a existing product and not exactly beginning from scratch.
Sort of like the auto industry; Companies like Dinan, AMG, Ruff, Calloway all offer enhancements to current offerings for a price and all seem to do OK.
Take Tesla, Delorian, and perhaps Hummer "AM General" (true scratch cars). All struggled in a niche market. Tesla is the only one left and they are there only with an infusion of $$ from Toyota.

let's generalize

high end, bespoke boutiques are about extracting descreationary funds.

and that's all there is.

One of the things I never understood with Kimber or Dakota. If you bought one of their less expensive guns, they usually had a $50 stick of wood. With Dakota, Take the Serengeti for example. 3K price range and maybe a $100 blank. It costs the same to machine a $100 blank as a $1000 blank. Buying the quantities they buy, I bet they can get a nice stick for a low cost. Sizzle sells the steak. At least Weatherby understood this on their MK-5's, around 1K and they all have a nice piece of wood. Seems to me that they cut corners on the one thing that makes a great first impression. The other thing about Dakota, you can spend 10k on one, but it is still a factory made rifle, it will never have the level of quality as a true custom by a name maker for the same price.

In Australia (and I think it would apply in America) it appears that products that are dearer than the "standard" have very few buyers that go higher than 2 to 3 times the "standard" article.

Consider rifles. There are very few rifles on this forum that are more expensive than a Wby Accumark, Sako or the big Ruger. Similar on Australia's main guns/hunting forum.

The Australia Ford and GM car at the standard level are about $35,000. Very few cars sell for more than a $100,000

My guess is American Hnting Rifles are aided by the fact that a shooter can start with a smaller outlay, that is, a CZ and then build from there.

I think Roy Weatherby was very tuned in with what the upper limit of pricing was for 99% of shooters than would spend more than a Rem 700 or M70 cost.

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
The other thing about Dakota, you can spend 10k on one, but it is still a factory made rifle, it will never have the level of quality as a true custom by a name maker for the same price.

The custom shops with Wby, Sauer and Blaser do well and cost plenty. But unlike a Dakota they are not rifles that can be duplicated by a gunsmith starting with a cheap M98 or M70.

The custom M98 lets the shooter start the project with a small amount of money and then "pay as we go"

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
...The other thing about Dakota, you can spend 10k on one, but it is still a factory made rifle, it will never have the level of quality as a true custom by a name maker for the same price.

To a some degree Dakota got hammered by bad management. But I also agree with lee440.

They offer nothing special and have been keeping afloat by ??? brand name would be my best guess.

Dakota is basically competing in the same $$ range as Sauer/Blaser/Mauser. Except those three companies can deliver at a similar price with better wood, Quick release scope mounts, and offer switch barrel vesatility.

Dakota will continue to be plauge by the fact that you can get a custom Mod 70 for the same price with better wood if you are willing to shop around. You throw in the fact that the german guns are getting more avaliable and it really puts the hurt on companies like Dakota.


.

Another issue is that a guy can buy a Winchester M70, made in South Carolina, that shoots equal to any custom on that list. The new trigger, the better barrels and better manufacturion by FN make it my choice over Dakota or Kimber. I can afford any of them and even made a trip to the Empire office to seek out the "best" - I decided to stay with the M70.

I like the new Ruger's and the new Remington's as well. I may even try CZ at some point as I have seen a few new ones locally that appear to be 1st rate.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:


Dakota is basically competing in the same $$ range as Sauer/Blaser/Mauser. Except those three companies can deliver at a similar price with better wood, Quick release scope mounts, and offer switch barrel vesatility.

Do you really think Dakota compete with Sauer/Blaser etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Do you really think Dakota compete with Sauer/Blaser etc.

Although they operate in a slightly higher price range... I certainly think they are effected by them. And sauer/blaser/mauser do offer high end stuff in the same range as the dakota offerings.

They equal or better dakota in wood. Equal in accuracy. Quick scope mounting that doesn't bolt on the rifle changing its lines. Takedown versatility... And the vast majority of hunters can give a rats ass about CRF...

Yeah, I'd say that they compete pretty well - it's just a matter of raising product awareness in the American demographic.

What does Dakota offer that is so special that you can't duplicate it with a mod 70 action and the same amount of cash???

Plus 10K for a rifle that the stock isn't even fitted to your measurements??? O'l P.T. Barnum was right.

You can take a Safari Mod 70 (current production) and probably source it for $900.00. +
1) Nice piece of wood (shop around ) $1000.00
2) Sunny Hill bottom metal $500.00
3) NECG barrel band front sight $100.00
4) Polish and true action, jewel bolt, trigger job, ensure proper feed; $500.00
5) $2,500.00 for custom stock work.

You have a nice gun to your dimensions for $5,500.00 Yea, I would rather have it than a Dakota. You might be able to get a lesser known gunsmith to trim a bit off that $2,500.00 stock labor.
Only issue is that most of the gunsmiths that I know that do very good work take a loooooong time to finish a product.

I do not think the average guy is aware of the channels to get this done.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Do you really think Dakota compete with Sauer/Blaser etc.

Although they operate in a slightly higher price range... I certainly think they are effected by them. And sauer/blaser/mauser do offer high end stuff in the same range as the dakota offerings.

They equal or better dakota in wood. Equal in accuracy. Quick scope mounting that doesn't bolt on the rifle changing its lines. Takedown versatility... And the vast majority of hunters can give a rats ass about CRF...

Yeah, I'd say that they compete pretty well - it's just a matter of raising product awareness in the American demographic.

What does Dakota offer that is so special that you can't duplicate it with a mod 70 action and the same amount of cash???

Plus 10K for a rifle that the stock isn't even fitted to your measurements??? O'l P.T. Barnum was right.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I do not think the average guy is aware of the channels to get this done.

Probably the main reason they're still in business - that and the wait times for custom work...

Kimber (Oregon) - Similar to dakota...

Dakota - it's Dakota.

North Fork - Barnes - Swift - Too niche/more headache than it's worth for origional owners??

Rigby Cal. - English name, south-west style, eecchhh.

PH actions - under capitalised??

How does that saying go? Men who make products for people who ride in buses drive cadillacs and men who make cadillacs ride in busses.....or something like that.

In other words there is more profit in marketing to the masses rather than marketing to the wealthy. Look at the Mc.Donalds, easily the most successful restaurant ever. Try and create that kind of sucess with an "upscale" restaurant.

the chef

I think PH actions are victims of our market. A lot of these companies, all I guess, are targeting the tail end market, the small percentage of hunters that will outlay the extra money. most guys with a bit extra will go on a hunt before buying something $$fancy. Majority of gun people also don't really know custom work. they don't know where to get it done, what real good work is, or all their options.

Now, in such a setup, with the current economy more and more of the people that would buy these don't have the money to. just my opinion.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I think PH actions are victims of our market. A lot of these companies, all I guess, are targeting the tail end market, the small percentage of hunters that will outlay the extra money. most guys with a bit extra will go on a hunt before buying something $$fancy. Majority of gun people also don't really know custom work. they don't know where to get it done, what real good work is, or all their options.

Now, in such a setup, with the current economy more and more of the people that would buy these don't have the money to. just my opinion.

Red

All True. There's also waaaaay too much crap on the relatively small market, some of it quite excellent but most of it horrible and no, most folks don't know the difference just like in any other market.

I know that these are radical notions.

But bear with me.

Know what you can deliver.

Promise only that.

Put another way, don't promise what you can't deliver.

And deliver what you promise, on time and on budget.

Every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I know that these are radical notions.

But bear with me.

Know what you can deliver.

Promise only that.

Put another way, don't promise what you can't deliver.

And deliver what you promise, on time and on budget.

Every time.

Lotta Cats in the "industry" start marketing gear they haven't even fully designed yet much less actually prototyped, produced, & developed.

Maybe they were previously DoD contractors.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

Although they operate in a slightly higher price range... I certainly think they are effected by them. And sauer/blaser/mauser do offer high end stuff in the same range as the dakota offerings.

They equal or better dakota in wood. Equal in accuracy. Quick scope mounting that doesn't bolt on the rifle changing its lines. Takedown versatility... And the vast majority of hunters can give a rats ass about CRF...

Yeah, I'd say that they compete pretty well - it's just a matter of raising product awareness in the American demographic.

What does Dakota offer that is so special that you can't duplicate it with a mod 70 action and the same amount of cash???

Plus 10K for a rifle that the stock isn't even fitted to your measurements??? O'l P.T. Barnum was right.

I would say that in Australia the buyer of a Sauer/Blaser is a completely different buyer to the Dakota buyer.

A Wby Safari is similar pricing to Dakota, maybe more with wood upgrade but I think the Wby Safari buyer does buy "instead of Dakota"

Suaer/Blaser...unique buyer
Wby Safari..unique buyer
Dakota....Also considers M70 Supergrade and various custom gunsmith options.

I have been waiting 4 years for my Empire 458 Lott, and I will never again order a custom gun.

I read Boddington's book Safari Rifles and he said there isn't 1 gun company making a rifle that is Africa ready: every rifle sold will need the stock bedded and crossbolted, and maybe some action work, to have it ready for dangerous game.

I saw Empire pillar bedding and cross bolting their stocks, and I could order one in the barrel length and LOP I desired, and I could order one with an aperture sight. Gun writers raved about Empire, so I ordered one and lost $8500.

So then I took a 1953 Win 70 in 300 H&H to my local Grand Rapids gunsmith, Bachelder's, and 5 months later they delivered a 458 Lott with Sunny Hill bottom metal, NECG sights, Talley bases, and a McMillan safari stock with cast off built into it. 5 MONTHS not 5 years.

Jeff Cooper built Baby on a Brno, not a custom action, and would have saved $8500 had I followed his example and just built on a Win or CZ to start with.

Last July I sent a 1953 Win 70 Featherweight to Grizzly Custom to make a Scout rifle and you can see the pics on their website, I should have it any day.

Had Empre delivered my rifle within 18 months, I would have immediately ordered a 300 H&H from them, and I would rave about how great they are to anyone who cared to ask.

The problems these custom guys have is their own making. If you can't deliver and you take people's money, the orders will stop coming in.

If you deliver what you promise you will have a job for life.

George has made a lot of excuses to me over the years and he doesn't seem to realise the people who can lay down that kind of money are most likely business owners themselves, and excuses don't cut it.

I believe it is best to source your own parts and let someone you know (individual) assemble the puzzle. That way you are paying for the labor.
My next project will be a 404J on a Mod 70 action (300 ultra mag). I would like to go the extra mile this time and get a octagon barrel with integrated front ramp, quarter rib, sling stud and recoil lug out of one chunk of steel. Need to get some direction on how to source that but I know where to get the rest of the parts.
I do expect to wait 18 months to two years for delivery of the finished product. One year would be great! You can be as good of a general contractor as a Empire.

EZ

quote:

The other thing about Dakota, you can spend 10k on one, but it is still a factory made rifle, it will never have the level of quality as a true custom by a name maker for the same price.

Amen to that!!! Thier early rifles are what made me suspect of writers in all the gun rags.

Interesting thread. A few observations:

1. A new Dakota 76 is not the same firearm as a Dakota 76 manufactured while Don Allen was still in charge.
2. The newest iteration of the FN Win M70 is one of the great firearms valus of all time.
3. D'Arcy Echols seems to understand this whole thing pretty well, as does AHR.
4. I was about to say that Holland & Holland is the exception that proves the rule, until I remembered that it is now owned by a luxury goods conglomerate. That said, their stuff is still pretty damn fabulous and in high demand.
5. If I actually knew anything about Hartmann & Weiss, I would say something. But I don't.

Good huntin to all.

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:

5. If I actually knew anything about Hartmann & Weiss, I would say something. But I don't.

No need to wonder. Even the gunsmiths at Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, and Rigby Rifles (London), all admit that if money and time were no object, that currently there are no finer gunsmiths on the planet.

But there is no big conglomerate to take over the business when they are gone (both are in their 70s'), so like all the great gunsmiths of yesteryear, they will also pass into the hallowed halls of fame.

And yet, very small firms are able to flourish in Europe making very expensive and very fine guns.

For example, Ivo and Tulio Fabbri make shotguns that sell for $75,000 and they do well. So do many other Italian makers. And many small German firms as well, including a few that make clone mauser actions. Folks that sell Rolex watches and mink coats don't concentrate their efforts in small towns!!!!

The problem (if it is a problem) is this. Americans have been spoiled by the ability to buy cheaply priced goods from around the world because those goods came from places where the standard of living was extremely low and the people had no choice but to work for obscenly low wages with no medical benefits.

When those economies that used to sell to us for those low prices gain traction their economies falter. Japan is an example. As their people demanded a better lifetyle and their wage structure became more realistic and their prices became more realistic their economy faltered and the production that was once there moved to places like viet nam and china and other places.

We have had it far too good for far too long.

I don't blame the custom riflemakers for living in small towns and out in the country where they can shoot, etc.

However, common business sense would suggest that if you are a high end custom gunmaker you set up your shop or your store in very high rent suburbs and parts of big cities where the money is. People buy what they can see.

Jim in Mi

Don"t feel like the Lone Ranger with your Empire problem. You and I are in the same boat for about the same money and read the same stuff.

wc375

I've been gunsmithing since 2003 and formerly worked for one of the aforementioned companies. As for that company's problems, they were, as one member said, brought upon themselves by poor follow through and dishonest practices.

I now currently run my own shop, a general gunsmithing shop, doing everything from cleaning and maintenance on crumby rimfires up to the occaisional custom rifle build. When I had the opportunity to open my own shop, I did it with one thing in mind: sink or swim, it would be done with honesty and integrity. "A weighted scale is an abomination to the Lord," was what i kept in mind, and every invoice i write up, i try to remember that. I have always done my best to keep the price of work at the qouted price, to correct my mistakes at my cost not the customer's, and to just simply be honest with a customer.

I have by no means made everyone happy! I have however, kept a lot of people happy and those people keep coming back and telling their friends. Over the last 3 years or so that I have been fully self employed, i have not gotten rich, but have made a living, supported my family, and I can look myself in the mirror at night without guilt of screwing some guy out of money for shoddy workmanship.

I have seen my profits steadily climb, my referal business steadily grown, and the region of my customer base get steadily larger. I believe that people keep coming back because I treat them the way I wish an auto mechanic or other businessman would treat me. I am not in the class of Holland, Dakota, or some of the other mentioned companies. Most of my "custom" work is rebarreling projects in the range of 1,000$ or so, with a few builds totaling 3-5K$ish. I do believe it is easier to make money in that range than the 8-10K$ + range, however, any business that makes a habit of promising what it cannot deliver and never attempting to, or taking money for products that are not even out of the development stage and other less than stellar practices will get bitten in the a$$ at some point.

The gun business is not an easy trade to make money in from any angle, but I decided that doing it right was more important that money; because of this, my business is growing. It is too bad that this is not the norm, but if it were, perhaps more of the high end companies would succeed. Sometimes i think that those high end companies have to spend more time kissing butts than they do building guns and in the end the guns dont get built and the butts get tired of being kissed without the promise being delivered. I could be wrong.

Guncurtis2,

I only wish that I know you personally and that you lived close to western Pennsylvania.

I am a business owner as well and you described the real secret to success. Thanks for sharing.

Wishing you and your family a very Merry Christmas!

Guncurtis 2, I hope you will be moveing up to the seattle area soon. All i have for gunsmiths are introverted, anti-social, boarderline nut-cases with bad manners too boot. Plus i think you can take advantage of a very large hunting community as well.

quote:

Originally posted by winbag338:
All i have for gunsmiths are introverted, anti-social, boarderline nut-cases with bad manners too boot.

TMK, that describes most gunsmiths, and machinists in general...

Much of the problem is that the gun culture forgives too much, in the name of quality.

I'm in the manufacturing business, and I've missed a delivery date (it happens - transformers blow, etc.), but I immediately talk to whomever's delivery I'm going to miss, and we go non-stop until we make it up...

And, I have NEVER taken an order that I was concerned about filling.

As customers, it may be time we insist on more professional contracts, and start having contracts w. custom builders - EG "product will be delivered by XYZ, deduction of Q% for being late, and beyond a certain point, all monies will be refunded, w. costs to be paid by the breaching party.

Its overkill for smaller things, but once you start talking about 10K+ orders, its worth suing over.

JIm,
this is pretty disturbing --- I've sent empire an email with your statements -- Perhaps we'll hear both sides of this discussion, as I can't believe the accusation of stealing your 8500 dollars..

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in MI:
I have been waiting 4 years for my Empire 458 Lott, and I will never again order a custom gun.

I read Boddington's book Safari Rifles and he said there isn't 1 gun company making a rifle that is Africa ready: every rifle sold will need the stock bedded and crossbolted, and maybe some action work, to have it ready for dangerous game.

I saw Empire pillar bedding and cross bolting their stocks, and I could order one in the barrel length and LOP I desired, and I could order one with an aperture sight. Gun writers raved about Empire, so I ordered one and lost $8500.

So then I took a 1953 Win 70 in 300 H&H to my local Grand Rapids gunsmith, Bachelder's, and 5 months later they delivered a 458 Lott with Sunny Hill bottom metal, NECG sights, Talley bases, and a McMillan safari stock with cast off built into it. 5 MONTHS not 5 years.

Jeff Cooper built Baby on a Brno, not a custom action, and would have saved $8500 had I followed his example and just built on a Win or CZ to start with.

Last July I sent a 1953 Win 70 Featherweight to Grizzly Custom to make a Scout rifle and you can see the pics on their website, I should have it any day.

Had Empre delivered my rifle within 18 months, I would have immediately ordered a 300 H&H from them, and I would rave about how great they are to anyone who cared to ask.

The problems these custom guys have is their own making. If you can't deliver and you take people's money, the orders will stop coming in.

If you deliver what you promise you will have a job for life.

George has made a lot of excuses to me over the years and he doesn't seem to realise the people who can lay down that kind of money are most likely business owners themselves, and excuses don't cut it.

Jeff

I can tell you what George will say

1. the economy took a dive after 2008 and it isn't his fault

2. we mere mortals don't understand how manufacturing works

3. they are shipping rifles, my rifle is there and everything is fine

Then I will say

1. my rifle was supposed to be built in 2007 so what do I care about the economy from 2009 onward?

2. I was told 1 year after ordering by Ray that my gun was being stocked, I was told in July 2009 that I would have it in 60 days, and in Oct I was told my action was "being held hostage" by the vendor.

3. I can forward my e mails from Empire over the years to you if you wish to read them.

I have held off having my credit card company withdraw $8500 from Empire because I really want them to pull this off and I wish them the best.

I don't like being lied to twice about the status of my rifle only to be told 3 years in that the wheels have come off.

I wish Empire and all of these guys the best, I really do, but I feel that people searching the net before ordering a custom rifle should read about my experiences before they make their decision, so I am airing my laundry.

Actually here is his reply from another forum

http://www.africahunting.com/f...empire-rifles-3.html

Question is why would you send 8500 up front the full price of the gun ?? where standard pratice is 1/2 deposit 1/2 on delivery so until there is solid proof of this ima say

Thanks SWPA and Winbag. For the moment i'm remaining in soviet occupied California. I do think about moving from time to time but that would be in the future.

It certainly does seem than the gun culture in general has a lot of A--holes that are arrogent and condescending. I cant tell you how many gunshops i've been to where they barely look up from thier newspaper until you actually put something on the counter to buy. They ignore you unless your one of their good ol' boys. I hate that.

I will admit that i can be grumpy on occaisions! However, i always try to give my customers a friendly smile and welcome attitude. I never understood the jerks who think they are better cuz they work in a gunshop.

In any case, I wish all onboard the AR forums a merry christmas and a great new year.

I'd hate to see the custom gun field come to contracts. I will say that my first "custom" experience left a horrible taste in my mouth, and though I no longer harbor ill will towards the shop responsible for ruining my dream (or I should say not successfully pulling it off) I still do business with them as they are good people if you realize their limitations.

that said, i like to do business with people I get along with and like. the person that is working on something for me right now, I liked him a lot, after my first conversation with him about it, his excitement at my project, his time invested in discussing it with me without me actually having anything in his hands or any money in it. I like people I can "handshake" with and trust. I'll give you an example...

same shop as above (that was more due to the project being beyond their abilities and them not knowing it and therefore not being able to tell me, when it didn't come off right, well, I took my major gunsmithing elsewhere). However, they are good people. Before the incident they had also done a job cleaning up a chamber on a sporter I bought, cut the threads, set it back, rechambered. I had trouble with reloaded ammo not chambering though. the neck was too tight. well by the time I got it back from my other gusnmiths estate, unfixed (he didn't get to it before his passing) it had been about 4 years. I took it in to this shop, told them the neck was too tight and it needed to be opened a bit. they did it and when I went to pay for the work he asked me if they hadn't worked on it before, I said yes and recapped. No charge.

For that reason I still do business there, send people there, and will go back. I just won't go to them for a full blown custom.

Now, in the case with the guy that has the rifle undelivered from Empire. You're way too f(*#ing understanding! I'd go after it and get the money any way I could, if at all possible. That's a lot of frickin money in my mind.

Red

I love these threads! After years of reading and posting here I still don't understand why anyone would pay ANY money for some worked over thumb cut POS from a shit pile in the former USSR. ARE YOU FKM?? All these $10k+ guns aren't worth their weight in sand. Seriously, WTF is the fascination with ruining a perfectly usable old military clunker?? Sow's ear? As far as forking over $8500 bucks for anything ... if some MF was 30 days late and still alive, bet your ass the local Law would be servin' him. This business is dumber than dirt cause folks do dumb ass shit!

Jim I read George Sandmans reply on the other forum. So on 10-13 your rifle was checkered and georgeous. I would ask why in the hell after another 2.5 months you still don't have your rifle.....?

"""Actually here is his reply from another forum

http://www.africahunting.com/f...empire-rifles-3.html
"""


Well anytime you run your business as a pyramid you are asking for trouble.

Sorry but bad business practice gets even worse when you decide to start lying about it.

On the other post he states your rifle is checkered. IF that is fact and not another lie they why in the HELL has it taken another 2+ months and it still is not delivered. Sounds like Empire is still just printing

The ultimate boutique company for rifles is probably Holland and Holland! Now whilst they are still going strong, as it were, they too have had to close their Paris showroom.

Indeed the two famous Paris makers - Gastinne Renete and Faure Le Page also closed one about seven years plus ago the other about two years ago.

I went into Faure Le Page this year...only the name carved above the door remains. The premises is now a seller of men's shirts!