George your attemp to salvage your reputation is to little to late. You were never honest with me from the start. There is nothing you could do to get me back as a customer. I just don't deal with people like you. I understand hiccups in business and delays. The way you have handled those hiccups and delays is just totally unsat. I will make sure that every last person I ever talk with about rifles knows as far as I am concerned to stay clear of you. If someone is dumb enough to still want to do business with you then that is on them. Just imagine all this bad press you have gotten on delievery issues of your rifles. I can't even begin to wonder how bad it will be should someone need to warrenty or get service from you.

I am sorry you feel this way. You were dissatisfied, we refunded your money, end of saga. As I indicated in my private note, if there is anything additional we can do for you, please advise. Good hunting, --George

Hi Folks

I have pulled down the empire rifles victims website on agreement with George. Whilst I cannot elaborate here I have had cause to believe that George is in fact trying his hardest in difficult circumstances. George and myself have an undertaking regarding my rifle and some of the folks who have contacted me and part of this agreement is that I give George until April 1 to ship both mine and several other rifles completed and as ordered.
Believe me that if the deal is not adhered to fully to the letter I will post here again. I will be contacting the fellas who contacted me through the webpage over the next several days as time permits.
I feel very confident that George with keep his word

Best Regards

Bob

I'm curious as to why you can't elaborate, is George having you sign nondisclosure statements? The guy that started the thread on Africa Hunting Forums got a refund but he also said the agreement was he could only be vague. Why all the secrecy about what is going on?

What makes you think "this time" George is being honest with you. Here is my history with Empire:
-buy rifle in 2006, told it would be " about a year"
-little less than a year later I call to cancel recoil reducer and Ray tells me the rifle was off being stocked, no problem they just won't put the tube in (it wasn't anywhere near a stock maker)
-all of 2008=we are working on it
-Jan of 2009 George tells me my rifle is a priority as it has been so long
-July 2009 George e mails me to tell me I will have rifle in 60 days
-Oct 2009 George e mails telling me my barreled action is being held hostage by a vendor. WTF does that mean?
-late 2010 George posts on Africa Hunting Forum that my rifle is "stocked and gorgeous", see link given
-Dec 30 PM message from George here on AR that my rifle is "virtually finished"

NO RIFLE

There is something pathologic about a guy/company that lies this much.

Every single patient I have here in West MI that is in manufacturing tells me their delivery times have DECREASED during the recession. I have ordered and taken delivery of 3 rifles since sending Empire money, so George blaming "the economy" on his woes doesn't sit well with me.


I will never, ever, advise someone to buy a rifle from Empire after being lied to for going on over 4 years. Don't tell me about the wait for a British double rifle or Italian shotgun-it's not the wait, it the lies that don't sit well with me.

Bob, George told me 60 days in July of 2009, so that April 1 2011 promise means squat to me.

As I stated earlier, if anyone else defending George wants me to forward George's e mails to prove I'm not making this up just give me your e mail.

This ENDS when the rifle shows up at my FFL. George's posts and promises mean nothing after 4 years.

Hi Jim
I dont doubt a word of what you have said at all. That being said I intend to give George until April 1 as we agreed. If that fails then all hell breaks loose.
I agree with all you have said in your post - however I have given my word and shall keep it. It goes with out saying that I will post here again one way or another

Best Regards

Bob

Bob,

Your personal business is, well, personal, and I respect that. I just wouldn't go out and buy ammo for that rifle anytime soon.

I too hope to post here someday that my Empire is the rifle I hoped it to be. I don't know how long they will be open if people keep demanding refunds, but I am going to wait it out.

"Stayin' Alive" by the Bee Gees or "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen? Same beat, different melodies.
Time will tell what tune Sandmann is whistling.
I feel for you guys.
April?
Good luck.
Freddy Mercury was born in Zanzibar, Tanzania.

Jim is your rifle one of the rifles that Empire375 has arranged to be delivered by April 1st as part of his agreement?

Men:

Jim's experience, and others like it, are terrible. We are working on clearing the backlog. Am taking care of Bob, and Jim, and several others.

Given Jim's experience cannot blame him for one-and-done. Jim, as we discussed on the phone, will get you taken care of. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to deliver your rifle.

Melodies? I like the Bee Gees myself. . . this is a cage match. Be well, --George Sandmann, President, Empire Rifles

McKay

No, I did not contact Bob to pursue legal action as a group against Empire.

Jim, I believe tomorrow is D-day. have you received your rifle?

Caretaker,

Again, I am not part of this April 1 deal that Bob made. I never contacted him when he put his website up.

I too am wondering if Bob will chime in tomorrow telling us he received his rifle.

My last communication from Empire was a PM from George Dec 30 saying my rifle was "virtually finished".

Jim,
thanks for clarifying. a damn shame i say.

Spoke with a buddy that ordered a plastic 375H&H from empire 4 years ago and has received nothing. I forwarded him the link to the class action a while back.
No significant stock work to a plastic gun?? I believe that is where the time is required on a custom.
He is pretty embarrased to say what he is out in $$.

EZ

Here is their latest as of today:

http://www.empirerifles.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in MI:
Caretaker,

Again, I am not part of this April 1 deal that Bob made. I never contacted him when he put his website up.

I too am wondering if Bob will chime in tomorrow telling us he received his rifle.

My last communication from Empire was a PM from George Dec 30 saying my rifle was "virtually finished".

Hi Fellas
I dont have my rifle as yet. HOWEVER over the last several weeks I have become more and more confident that while Empire Rifles is having considerable problems George intends to come through. I have had some encouraging emails from some of the folks who contacted me through my website saying that George has now "come through" with the goods and that they were now happy. I have pictures of my rifle and feel confident that I will have it - maybe not by the deadline I set for George but I will have it non the less.
Put simply the deadline has not been met but I am happier than before. I am convinced that George has both the will and integrity to fulfill his obligations.

Well if George is delivering that means hopefully he has cash flow.

My problem is that I paid in full back in 2006, so George has no incentive to build my rifle and building my rifle at this point in time will cost him money, as opposed to making money for him, as I don't owe him a balance.

I don't have pictures and most likely don't have a rifle.

Hi Fellas
I'm sorry for not updating some of you as promised - very busy at work.
I can advise the forum that this week George has in fact kept his word and delivered my rifle. I cannot post pics etc because it is at NECG in NH and I'm in OZ !
However it took George a long time but he has in fact delivered. Whilst its easy for me to say (because I will have my gun) I urge customers to be patient as I remain convinced that whilst George is doing things hard I feel his intentions are honourable. When I have the rifle in my hot little hands I will post multiple pics for all to see.

Well, this looks like a handsome rifle, but very plane. Don't get me wrong, I prefer functional rifles, in reality and appearance. But for a custom model 70, I would expect at least 1 cross bolt. Am I missing something?

I think it's an Empire action.

I learned my lesson. As most of you know I got burned bad (and others here too) by that fucking crook Greg Hein and even winning law suits and arrest warrants still failed to get my money back. So I took about seven grand and flushed it down the shitter. Never again. jorge

Many years ago a good buddy of mine gave some sage advice about "custom" rifles.

He said "NEVER order a Custom rifle from the builder... Buy it on the used rifle market.
That way you will be looking at EXACTLY what you will be getting, and you will get it EXACTLY when you pay for it"...

And most of the time for less that the original price.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Many years ago a good buddy of mine gave some sage advice about "custom" rifles.

He said "NEVER order a Custom rifle from the builder... Buy it on the used rifle market.
That way you will be looking at EXACTLY what you will be getting, and you will get it EXACTLY when you pay for it"...

And most of the time for less that the original price.

It seems to happen with the bolt action crowd to some degree.
But Searcy, Heym, Verney-Caron, Bailey Bradshaw, etc. double
rifles all seem to be making their way to the customer with reg-
ular frequency.

I see where Empire will be exhibiting at SCI in Las Vegas. Caveat emptor.

Any updates concerning the non delivery, late delivery etc of Empire rifles?

Have the affected people achieved satisfaction concerning their orders - money returned or rifles deivered?

No word. George sent me a PM here on AR Dec 30 stating my rifle was "virtually finished" and about 2 weeks ago I e mailed saying I would be happy if he shipped me anything he had and I would have my local gun builder finish it-but he didn't respond to my e mail

The guys in the thread at Africa Hunting Forums are trying to get the legal people in New Hampshire to pursue fraud charges, alledging George misrepresented delivery times and took deposits after he knew the company was in trouble, or something like that.

I'm out $8500.

I really, really wanted a peep sighted Lott with cast off built into the stock.

You guys ever hear the story of Ares Defense and their belt fed M16 upper called the shrike? They took hundreds of thousands from people and nine years later started dribbling out their crappy product to a few of the customers. A total ponzi scheme. They dribble out just enough of them to keep the rest from sueing the crap out of the company. It's amazing that some pissed off customer doesn't pay them a lil ol time Chicago style visit. -Rob

I got my Shrike, eight years after the deposit was made. Since then, I've kind of lost interest in the class III stuff, and have moved on to big bores. Wanna buy a Shrike?

I realize my suggestion of an "escrow" system for rifles was deemed "ungentlemanly" when I suggested it earlier, but I still think it may be valid.

I admit I have a certain type of hammer, but stuff like this just makes me want to re-iterate the need to call your lawyer in early.

Many of us are in various forms of business, and, if we're honest, we know that all the B.S. slung by SOME gunsmiths is either outright lies, or signs of their incompetence.

These days, I'm mostly interested in USPSA, but I only order guns from "professionals" now. I judge the 'smiths I use by the same standards as I judge anyone else I do business with.

Incompetent people deserve to go under, quickly. Its the best result for the populace, and its the best result for the incompetent. Some people are excellent craftsman, but cannot handle their own business affairs - and they'll be better off going under, as rapidly as possible, and finding someone else to hire them.

Thank you for your replies.

Unfortunately, what I am reading is what I hoped had not happened, continued to happen.

It is looking to me like a pyramid scheme - only those in the game early on get their money back. Those joining later have to wait - hope others can be persuaded to 'play'.

It is a pity. The rifles looked nice and they were available left handed.

Buddy of mine got a lefty 375 from George two years ago. It was in stock because someone did not pay for it. I killed impala and warthog with it. Must say it is an outstanding rifle.

390ish
Greg Hein made some very nice rifles too, unfortunately past performance has no effect on present status as a scumbag.

This is not anything NEW, its been the way things are for eons...These companies come out with a copy of the Mod. 70 or the Mauser, and its great for a short time, they saturate a small market then its over and done..It takes a conglomerate to succeed, and I'm not sure they do, Winchester and the rest have fallen on hard times over and over again, changed hands multi times..

It will be interesting to see what the value on the big bore Empire Rifles do, now that it is apparent Empire is done. I really like my .505 Empire and had hoped the company would survive and be able to make the wrongs that were done to other customers right.

paid a $2900 deposit to George in Nov of 2009, traded emails a few times over the ensuing 2 years (rifle was originally to have been delivered in 13 months), he then went completely silent over the summer ...

I saw in the African Hunting Forums site where he was apparently being investigated by a local Sheriff in NE, I contacted him as well but never heard back ...

I own an Empire I bought from George as previously-owned, damn nice rifle ...

Best Regards,

Craig Nolan

Will be interesting to see if Empire shows up at the SCI convention this year.