Does anyone still use it or has everyone gone to the lott?
If anyone out there does use the 458 win mag, are you totally happy with it?

I took both an elephant and buffalo with mine. Did the job just fine. Shoots where I point it. I will keep it and pass it on.
Dean

You have to keep in mind that on these boards owning a 458WM is like owning a 30-06, or having an ugly girlfriend . All useful for thier purpose , everybody has or did have one, and nobody will admit it. If you think about it you only need 4 rifles (I have 10) a 22lr, 30-06, 375 H&H and a 458WM. Everthing is compaired to these, some better, some worse, but they ARE the bench mark.

Well, I too own a 22,30-06,375 among others but no big bore. I just can't make up my mind yet between a 458 or a 416 rem mag.
I did find one of the nicest 458win mags I have ever seen for sale.

stick with the benchmarks 458WM is next. BTW what is the one you saw for sale?

I'll also admit to having a 458WM it shoots under .5 for 3 shots at a 100 yds recoil is easy and nothing seems to walk away from it.
with all the attention the lott is getting these days you can get a great deal on a WM. it will probably be all the gun you want.

i have one.. built it for about 250 bucks... shoots great, but designed for only 405 rems, as the mag is too short for 500s and having any useful capacity...

it holds 3 down...

it feeds like a hungry coon dog

weighs 8.25 lbs

and i built it for my babyson on a mexican mauser

jeffe

IMO the 458 Win. was and is a poorly designed round, it does not have the case capacity that I want for a 500 gr. bullet...there is a little fire where all that smoke is, and many a factory round has failed, particularly on elephant..It was and is a popular round over there because at the time it was the only whore in town!

Will it kill buffalo, of course, and with a proper handload its a good enough caliber even for elephant..

Given my druthers, I would pick the 416 Rem hands down over a .458 Win...but I would not deny anyone who wants one that pleasure, its all about choices and then we have to live with those choices....

If I had to live the rest of my life culling buffalo in Africa, and all I could shoot was a .458 Win, that would not bother me at all, but if I had a choice of any caliber, it is the last big bore I would choose...and that pretty well sums up my idea of the .458 Win.

The 458 Win is one of the few areas Ray and I disagree on. I love it - but - I use it on big bears and with good bullets it is devestating. Ray does a lot of African hunting where solids are useful and needed but in my testing the 458 does great with them also. I know Ray likes the 404 - so do I - and it made it's reutation with a 400 gr bullet at 2150fps. Even in my 20 inch barreled 458 I can get nearly 2300fps with a 400 grain bullet and 2100 with a 500. I have a feature in the upcoming Rifle magazine comparing the 458 Win and the 458 Lott. I'm sure Ray will be calling me about it.

It is no fat lick nowadays to load the 458 WM to 2150 fps with 500 gr. bullets. So that makes it no different than any other 450, including the reveered NE cartridges it was originally trying to imitate.

If comparing the original Jeffery to the 458 WM, both at 2150 fps, there is no comparison, at least according to some folks!!

I purchased a CZ 550 458 win. mag and 458 Lott at the same time...got a good deal on them. The Lott I sent off to a gunsmith to work on, the win. mag. I just shot. Limited testing I did... chronographed some Factory 458 win. mag. Federal TB at nominal 2130 fps, Winchester Factory SP at 2090fps, and my reloads 500 grain Barnes TSX and Solids at nominal 2150 fps. My 458 win mag was extremely accurate. I understand you can now purchase Hornady 458 win mag. loaded to 2250 fps with 500 grain bullets...never tried those.

The 458 Lott can be loaded to 2300 fps+ with 500 grain bullets. I used mine on Cape Buff last year loaded at 2250 fps with 500 grain Barnes TSX and it hammered them.

If I came across a good deal on a 458 win. mag. I would buy it...but if I had a choice I would buy the Lott...easier to reload, more flexible, less pressure, can use 458 win mag ammo in a pinch, etc....I would buy a 416 before the win. mag. just my preference...

After reading post here I now wondering why Jack Lott did not just go ahead and make the thing 3" instead of 2.8" case length and be done with it!..but probably could not shoot 458 win mag in that Monster!

I have an old Ruger in 458. I also have old Rugers in 338 and 30-06. By keeping with the same rifle sytle and same length action I think it gives me a better feel for operation under pressure. As I have been shooting these same rifles from the late 70's they work by themselves. I do also own a winchester 70 in 470 Capstick. But the winchester does not worl on its own like the rugers which have accounted for hundreds of big game over the years.
I guess the Lott is a bit better in velocity-- but I'll take the one I won't short stroke with the bear 2 feet away!

I've used the .458 Win. Mag. before for buffalo, hippo, and zebra, and it worked satisfactorily, but not spectacularly.

Quite honestly, it's a 100 yd. gun at best, and its real problem is that it's a cartridge that features too much bullet and not enough case capacity. Every way you look at it, the .458 Lott and the .450 Dakota are better cartridges if you want a big .45. I'd also rather pack one of the .416s, and I have personally gone to the .416 Remington and have sold my .458 Win.

The best reason to still buy a .458 Win. Mag. is if you happen to find a good buy on a great rifle. For example, an old Belgian Browning Safari in .458 Win. Mag. would be very hard to pass up...............

AD

Allen,

New here. Can anyone of you please explain why the .416 over the .458?

CG

Phil,

Which issue? I'll be looking for it, sounds interesting...

quote:

Originally posted by idahoelk101:
You have to keep in mind that on these boards owning a 458WM is like owning a 30-06, or having an ugly girlfriend . All useful for thier purpose , everybody has or did have one, and nobody will admit it. If you think about it you only need 4 rifles (I have 10) a 22lr, 30-06, 375 H&H and a 458WM. Everthing is compaired to these, some better, some worse, but they ARE the bench mark.

Idaho, I will agree with you on the 22lr, the 30-06, and especailly the 375 H&H, but not the 458 Win Mag. The 458 Win Mag was a "MAKE DO" cartridge brought out when no ammo in the NE field was available, and Winchester, simply filled a gap with an igsisting rifle that could be found anyplace. The Mod 70, or the 98 Mauser could be chambered for it without some expencive re-tooling. The bench mark in that field was the 450 NE 3 1/4"pushing a 480 gr soft or solid at 2150 fps, and developing only about 35,000 Psi chamber pressure. The 458 Win Mag was brought out to replace the 450NE 3 1/4", but couldn't do that without pushing pressures over 60,000 psi, and useing a 500 gr bullet, and with a 26" barrel, because of it's small powder capacity. The actual hunting rifles never reached that goal. The cartridge Winchester should have brought out was what is known today as the 458 LOTT, but with a 480 gr bullet it will make the 2150 fps in a 22" barrel, the 458 Win mag will only do this with a longer barrel, and by compacting the powder, which causes either very high pressure, or hang fires because of powder compaction. The 458 Win Mag was a STEP, to fixing a problem with the .450 bore that was finally fixed, properly, with the 458 LOTT, the round the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place!

Of all your "BENCH MARK" group, only the 22 LR, and the 375 H&H are true bench marks anyplace other than the USA. In the USA the 30-06 is probably the most thought of when deer are the target, but the old 30-30 has probably taken three times as many deer in the USA as the 30-06, and in cartridge sales volume, the USA is moveing away from the 06, to the hot 300 mags, and the 7mm Rem Mag now out sells the 06. I don't think the drop in sales of 30-06 ammo is due to REAL improvement over the 30-06, but simply because of the hype surrounding the Magnums!

The 458 Win Mag is a good cartridge, if one handloads it, and is very careful how he does it, but Bench mark it isn't. As I said before it was only a step in the process of restoreing the old, "REAL" bench mark, the 450 NE 3 1/4" !

I have a Whitworth .458 Winchester Magnum. With AA2200 ball powder, I'm getting an honest 2200 fps with a 500 grain bullet. I test it during the summer in Nevada at 110 degree temp. No problems. I asked my PH which rifle to bring on a buff hunt in Zimbabwe in October, which rifle to bring, the .458 or the 416 Rigby. His answer, "the one you shoot the best!"

I'm not sure with all the new bullets on the market 2400 fps is needed, and with the newer powders obtaining 2150-2200fps is this round really handicaped.

My 24" Ruger M77 in .458 Win gives me 2125fps with the 500gr Hornady RN and RL7. I can still hear the powder shaking in the case and have NO signs of high pressure. I've not tried to push it any further as it's a very comfortable load and is right where it's supposed to be.

quote:

Originally posted by hacksawtom:
I have a Whitworth .458 Winchester Magnum. With AA2200 ball powder, I'm getting an honest 2200 fps with a 500 grain bullet. I test it during the summer in Nevada at 110 degree temp. No problems. I asked my PH which rifle to bring on a buff hunt in Zimbabwe in October, which rifle to bring, the .458 or the 416 Rigby. His answer, "the one you shoot the best!"

Hacksawtom, I also have a Whitworth that started life as a 458 Win Mag, but has since been re-chambered to 458 LOTT. I load it down to 2150 fps, and use 480 gr Woodiegh softs and solids in it. It duplicates the old 450 NE 3 1/14" exactly, without any compaction, and can use just about any powder you want to do it! It will absolutely flatten a 1800 lb moose, or a big Brownie, without any of the draw backs of 458 Win Mag. The true benchmark in the Buffalo, and elephant fields was the 450NE 3 1/4", and the lott is a rimless belted duplicate of it, if loaded properly. There is no need for anything above 2150 fps in the .450 bore rifle for Elephant, or Buffalo, hence my down load, and bullet change. The LOTT does it easily, where the 458 Win Mag struggles to get there. The Lott case pressures are in the 45,ooo PSI range. It will also shoot the 458 Win Mag ammo if my ammo gets lost. That is a poor second but far better than an empty rifle in the bush.

I'm not convinced about the 458 WM at 2150 fps is the equivalent of the Lott at, say, 2300 fps. You have to have velocity to have penetration, and fps helps.

In theory, the 416's, at the same ft-lb of muzzle energy of the 458 WM, would have better penetration than the 450's, and hence their only benefit over the 450's.

MacD, I'm not sure where you get your figures for 60,00psi for the 458 Win because everyone in the industry I have talked to claim it is a low pressure round in most loadings.
There are no good or bad cartridges - just hunters using them for the wrong purposes.
As for the 458 Win not making the classic status- if 60 years of being the dominant cartridge in its's field doesn't qualify then what do you suggest does? Where do you suppose all the new super shorts will be in 60 years?

Well, Phil and I are good friends and we seldom disagee on such things as rifles and hunting, and I'm not sure there is a disagreement here..but were close!

I said I would hunt any game on earth with a .458 and a proper handload with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 plus FPS, but that does not omit the fact that it should have been a longer case from the get go...It should have been 3"s in my opine...then one could get the same 2100 FPS but at a much lower pressure, and I have never understood why win. didn't do that...thus my idea that its a poorly designed case...

So, my friends IMO, ya'll is making a silk purse out of a sows ear! but that ain't all bad, its just not my favorite choice!!

Phil,
For about 50 of those 60 years the 458 was the only whore in town!!
Just kidding brother.

I've never had a 458 win mag, because I've never come across one I just had to have. My introduction to big bores was the 458 Lott, and I liked it enough to get a second one after I sold the first. Actually, I'd considered having the replacment chambered as a 458 win mag, as it was built on a VZ-24 mauser, but the smith had a lott reamer and did the work essentially gratus, so I wasn't going to complain. I'll basically be loading it to 458 win mag levels anyhow.

The 458 win mag isn't nearly as bad as it's harshest critics attest, the main argument, and a valid one at that, is the 458 win mag should have been on the full length H&H case, and now that the Lott is a commercial offering, it makes better sense than the win mag.

As far as 416 over 458, it comes down to the simple matter of recoil. Most everyone can handle 400 gr @ 2400 fps, but go to 500 gr @ 2100 or better, and it's a whole different ball game. If your only going to hunt NA with your 458, then by all means, get the win mag, and either load 350's @ 2500, or 400's @ 2400. That makes it an honest 250 yd gun, and plenty enough for the biggest of NA game.

If shoot something with a properly loaded 458 win mag, and it wanders off, it wasn't lack of power, rather lack of shot placement.

The .458 Win. has been entirely eclipsed by the Lott. There is really no earthly need for the Win. at all any more.

Of course, if you already have one, so be it--it will do the job--but the Lott supersedes the Win. in every sense.

I don't know why people are interested in making the 458 - or any big bore - a 250 yard gun. They are dangerous game cartridges and dangerous game is not shot - or should not - be at those distances. If you do then get a .416 or .375. The large bores are for stopping big animals at rock throwing distances. That is their pupose.
That said, a good rifleman can do wonders with them at distances if they know what they are doing but it is not their purpose.

458 win mag:

Exactly!

I read so much negative stuff about the 458 win. mag that when it came time to purchase a "Big Bore" stopper I really tried to avoid the 458 win. mag. but I got such a good price on one I bought it anyway. I was able to get 2150fps with my handloads (500 grain bullets) and close to that with Federal Factory loads. I am sure that will work on anything walking around today!

I understand that you have had much success with the 458 win. mag but do you actually consider it the equal of the 458 Lott for all DG Hunting?

I have limited experience having only taken Cape Buffalo but I kind of like the Lott with the ability to handle (with relative easy) 500 grain mono-metal bullets at 2300fps..I really like the it when my PH said "he is down" even before I recovered from the recoil.

As I stated before I would not hestitate to purchase a 458 win.mag. but I much perfer the Lott based its ability to handle the 500 grain mono-metal bullets...but there some downside to the Lott..I ran across a fellow (he was going up your way last year to hunt Brown Bear) who was sighting in his Big Bore...I asked what he was shooting he said a 458 Lott but was using 458 win mag ammo...He said he fired the Lott once with 500 grain bullets and that was enough for him...we all have our tolerances...

How did your Bear Hunting go this year...if it is over???

Regards, jjs

Is it time for a bullshit check here?

The fact that a Lott goes a 150 or 200 fps faster with 500 gr. bullets has nothing to do with 250 yard shots. It has to do with more muzzle energy and more closely becoming a stopper, whatever that is.

It is difficult to argue with a 100 years of history concerning the success of 450's at ~2100 fps. That history does not mean that the 458 Wm at ~2100 fps needs to be categorized into the files of revisionism.

A Lott kicks a hell of a lot more than a 458 WM and a 458 WM can be had in an off the shelf rifle of lighter weight than the Lott.

A Lott is great, but that does not mean the 458 WM is now worthless. How desperate is this going to get?

Will,
Don't you realize that slower is better for penetration with stout bullets?

Seriously, the .458 Winchester Magnum is dyn-o-mite in a 3.8" magnum length box.

In the CZ 550 Magnum Safari, it can beat the standard .458 Lott ballistics for a 3.6" magazine, using the long modern bullets.

The standard .458 Win Mag has about an inch of throat, and it is all tapered leade with no parallel-sided freebore. It begs for a long bullet seated way out of the 2.5" case.

In a standard M98 length, an H&H length, and a true magnum length box, it is all that is really needed.

Life would be so dull if all we had as a stopper was the .458 WinMag, but it would go on just fine.

I'll buy any _Rifle_ or _Handloader_ magazine with a feature article by Phil Shoemaker. He is Finn Aagaard reincarnated in a different hemisphere of origin.

I will not subscribe to either of them anymore, since they canned Ross. I always check them out at the news stand.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A Lott kicks a hell of a lot more than a 458 WM and a 458 WM can be had in an off the shelf rifle of lighter weight than the Lott.

A Lott is great, but that does not mean the 458 WM is now worthless. How desperate is this going to get?

This is true, and if I thought more about recoil and weight, I would have realized this.

In any case, in the interest of avoiding desperation of any kind, please consider my earlier post qualified to take these factors into account.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Seriously, the .458 Winchester Magnum is dyn-o-mite in a 3.8" magnum length box.

Keep a sayin' it RIP! They might catch on after a while!

Maybe if they just re-named the old "girl" the .458 WSM ......................... Maybe a "ghost shoulder" would even help to justify the new name...... Then maybe 2100fps from it would compare to 2100fps from the ol' Nitros!!!!!!!

But please!!! Don't tell what the long-seated velocity is from the 3.8" box whatever you do!! It's a LOT(T)!!

BigRx

Great idea BigRx, but will they have to get rid of the belt and use shortened .404 Jeffery brass, and a real shoulder? If so, they could make it a little shorter than 2.5" case, for the .458 WSM. It will surely be all the rage.

The simple rename and ghost shoulder attribution would sure be easier for the bean counters.

Slower velocities work better with not-so-stoutly-constructed bullets too.

[QUOTE]
As far as 416 over 458, it comes down to the simple matter of recoil. Most everyone can handle 400 gr @ 2400 fps, but go to 500 gr @ 2100 or better, and it's a whole different ball game. If your only going to hunt NA with your QUOTE]

Paul H, I must be the only bloke that thinks that the .416 Rigby with 410 gr woodleigh in the hogsback stock at 2550-2600 fps as compared to the .458 lott with hogsback with 500 gr woodleigh at 2300 fps the recoil of the woodleigh with it's 102 gr of powder and extra fps seems more. My .416 has a composite stock but my mate still has the hogsback on his and when we did a comparison of my lott and the .416 in the same stocks we bot the thought the .416 was more severe, granted we are approaching the .416 weatherby ballistics.

PC,

I'm talking about 416 rem mag pushing 400's @ 2400 fps burning some 80 odd grains of powder. I have no doubt burning better than 100 gr of powder and achieving 2600 fps puts the Rigby in another ballpark regarding recoil.

I have a 458 Win mag, and it works fine. The Brits set the standard stopper load at a 480 to 500 grain bullet at about 2100 fps. The Win mag will do that. Yeah, I would like to have a Lott. I'd load it to 2100 fps with less pressure. I wont be rushing out to buy the Lott, because it's not worth it to me.

Dave

I dont think that I was understood. When I said benchmark, I meant exactly that. What everyone compares to. When comparing the newest and greatest cartridge invariably these 4 come up. With the 458WM (which seemed to work and seems to still for a DGR) it always is XYZ super magnum will push a 500grn bullet at 5000fps more than the 458WM and kill dinasours by just pointing it in their direction. Lets keep in mind why we all sing the praises of the 375 H&H (and no its not because the case can be made into so many different "better" cartridges) Good bullet weight, managable recoil, and easy to load. Now doesnt that sound like the 30-06, 458, etc. I know that they are boring, but come on guys lets give them thier due. (this was writen by a guy who owns 22's, 30-30, 30-06, 9.3x62, 375H&H,458wm,470 capstick, and numerous pistol calibers frankly too many guns, did I say that out loud? )

If I came across a nice looking, feeling 458 Win. I would buy it...IMO about any big bore will get the job done, Buffalo are like a can of beer, let all the juice out and you got one dead soldier....I still like the 40 calibers but I'm a wuss!

Now if you really want something to talk about that really important, I think the 30-06 is a better rifle than the .270,

I'm out of here!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
The .458 Win. has been entirely eclipsed by the Lott. There is really no earthly need for the Win. at all any more.

Of course, if you already have one, so be it--it will do the job--but the Lott supersedes the Win. in every sense.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

The 30.06 has been entirely eclipsed by the 300WM. There is really no earthly need for the 30.06 at all any more.

The 7X57 has been entirely eclipsed by the 7MM Rem Mag. There is really no earthly need for the 7X57 at all any more.

The 375H&H has been entirely eclipsed by the 378 Weatherby. There is really no earthly need for the 375H&H at all any more.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Now if you really want something to talk about that really important, I think the 30-06 is a better rifle than the .270,

I'm out of here!

Now you're talkin'!!!!!