quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
The .458 Win. has been entirely eclipsed by the Lott. There is really no earthly need for the Win. at all any more.

Of course, if you already have one, so be it--it will do the job--but the Lott supersedes the Win. in every sense.

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The 30.06 has been entirely eclipsed by the 300WM. There is really no earthly need for the 30.06 at all any more.

The 7X57 has been entirely eclipsed by the 7MM Rem Mag. There is really no earthly need for the 7X57 at all any more.

The 375H&H has been entirely eclipsed by the 378 Weatherby. There is really no earthly need for the 375H&H at all any more.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Your comparisons are interesting, but the cartridges you cite are not in the same relation as the .458 Win. and the .458 Lott. You are comparing cartridges that were designed for different game, or at least different shooting conditions, and that are based on very different parent cases.

The Win. and the Lott were designed to do exactly the same thing--kill DG--and use the same basic case. But the Lott is what the Win. should have been all along. It is a replacement (subject to the qualifications noted above regarding recoil level and rifle weight) and does not fill any other niche.

Your first comparison would have been more to the point had you noted that the .30-03 has been totally eclipsed by the .30-06.

mrlexma,

Shame on you for getting sucked into this. Someone should take away the some guys' prescription pads!

Phil,

I loved your article on old ugly. That article sure broughht back some very good memories. Is old ugly still in active service?

(pardon my change of subject gentlemen)

For some unfounded reason, I have been accredited with the no. 1 enemy of the .458 Win.

Nothing could be further from the truth, I have repetedly stated the .458 was a cartridge that was suitable for anything on this earth, especially with a good handload and that I would hunt the world with one without hesitation or something to those words....

I have always said it was a poorly designed cartridge from the get go, and it was and is, and its not choice of the big bores, that does not mean I won't use it and that I wouldn't own one, I will if a nice one comes by at the right price and I have used it on buffalo with very good results...

Both Phil and finn Aagard decided that I was not an advocate of the .458, thus the reputation, but I have to plead ig to those charges, they are unjust and only partically correct if you please!

Ray,
Ross Seyfried badmouthed the .458 Win Mag more maliciously than you. Sometimes you guys just play the devil's advocate, eh? Or there is another agenda ...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
mrlexma,

Shame on you for getting sucked into this. Someone should take away the some guys' prescription pads!

I know, but a guy's got to find his fun where he can.

Anyway, I'm such a radical I think the .22 Long Rifle is a better cartridge than and has totally eclipsed the .22 Long and Short.

The more I use the 458Win the more impresed I am with the original design in that is does what it was intended to do and that is match the 500gr/2100fps threshold in a standard length action. I know Finn felt the same as we discussed it at length.
I respect Ray's knowledgable about big rifles as well but am sure he has chronographed original Kynoch loads. I have seldom found one that even came close to published ballistics so the 458 is not alone in that department. it easily surpases the 404 load of a 400 gr bullet at 2150 by a wide margin. I will admit that there have been cases of compressed powder failing to fully ignite in the past but with our newer powders I hope that problem is settled. I have fired hundreds of rounds of the stuff - some ten years old or more - and yet to have a squib load. Maybe the cooler Alaskan temps has something to do with that - I don't know.
And yes Old Ugly is still working for a living even though every year someone wants me to test a new 'improved" rifle. I may try some different calibers this year. Maybe a 404, or another Lott, but if I do Old Ugly will still be working in the hands of my daughter Tia while she guides her clients. That is how much faith I put in a Mauser 458.

I've owned and shot both 458WM and 458Lott. For my purposes the 458WM was always the more versatile of the two. You can have a 458WM built along the same lines as a standard sporter (approx. 4kg)and not have the snot kicked out of you with 500gr projectiles. A 350gr at 2400fps is great for the medium to larger soft skinned game out to 250m. My 480gr Woodleigh loads were flat enough to use to 200m. For me, the 458Lott was too much of a good thing... needed extra weight to make it comfortable which caused it to be too heavy to carry up hill and down dale after deer. The two mistakes I've made as a shooter were selling my 458WinMag and my original 30/06.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

Paul Shea loves that 30/06 still to this day, was only talking to him about it a couple of weeks ago

The 458 couldn't produce what it was suppose toas every knows--but--I think it has a place.
I shot a zebra with one.you can load it down to a 45-70 and to deer hunt--good excuse to buy another gun--and makes a nice gun for africian lions>

Gentlemen,

In practice, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 458 Winchester when you handloaded it yourself.

But, for me at aleast, it is on the marginal side velocity-wise, and it would be the last of on the list of my choice for buffalo.

If I wanted a 45 caliber buffalo gun, I would prefer one with a larger case.

In fact, I just checked, and despite having several hundred rifles, I do not even own one??

On another thread, a discussion is going on about using the 338 Winchester for buffalo. I would pick the 338 with one of our own lathe turned bullets for a charging buffalo than the 458 any day.

I just do not like that low velocity of the 458.

Saeed,

The fact that you replied to this topic shows, to me, that now you have some doubt, and are considering adding a 458 to your arsenal!!

Penetration of 416 will be better at the same energy level of the 458 WM with 500 gr. bullets but heavier bullets can be more effective sometimes. A 416 and the 458 WM is enough gun for buffalo anyway, well most of the time.

We've said enough already on this thread- as an ex 458 shooter (but I'll die to defend your right to use it) think of Ron thompson (Mahoboh) who shot over 5000 eles, mainly with the 458, and remains a 458 'fan' - that's evidence..............................Charlie

If the .458 winnie can't do it there is no way that a 45/70 will do it.......... unless you use a mystical Garret load.....witch craft I say

quote:

Penetration of 416 will be better at the same energy level of the 458 WM with 500 gr. bullets but heavier bullets can be more effective sometimes. A 416 and the 458 WM is enough gun for buffalo anyway, well most of the time.

Yup and as a matter of fact if anything has totally eclipsed anything it's the .416 Remington magnum that has done it. One can also make a case for the lower pressured .416 Rigby or even the very old .404 Jeffery.

All the larger calibers are just pure overkill and purely a matter of ego or some necessity to maintain tradition.

The longer I read about these grand old cartridges the more I'm convinced that once you have a .416 in the arsenal, the more larger calibers are just plain unnecessary. I say this because of the comments by those that have been there and done that that the .375 H&H works fine for all DG and especially Saeeds (highly experienced) statements regarding his favorite DG rifle the .375/.404.

Is the .458 Win Mag inadequate?.....beats the hell out of me.....It's totally irrelevant.

Saeed,

I think you should do some justice to your good friend Roy Vincent by building a 450 Vincent long, and having the master of disaster make some 550 gr solids for it

I may be misguided on this but it's my understanding that the 45-47 caliber nitro express rounds gave "actual" velocities of around 100 to 150 fps less than stated.If this is the case,it makes the 458 win look even better in comparison.
Perhaps winchester should have left the case it's full length but nevertheless,it seems to acomplish it's intended purpose.
I've noticed a lot of references to it's recoil being greater than the 416's.It may be true but I've shot the two side by side on numerous occasions and my shoulder simply can't tell the difference.

I think we are all looking for the magic bullet.

Dave