Check out the September 08 issue of Guns & Ammo
page 78 Craig Boddington's article "Punch or Penetration?"

I never would have believed it, huge big bores failing to penetrate through to the brain on very large elephant reliably.
War hammer blows to the head failing to stun them unconscious (I've never heard of that happening before in all my readings but I guess it could happen when you get head bonked with 5000 plus foot pounds).

Boddington fesses up to admitting his own 450-3 inch 500gr bullets at 2150fps has failed to penetrate to the brain on multiple elephants.

Jeess, you would think one failure would indicate a cartridge case longer than 3" making more velocity should be acquired ASAP!

Nice to know though, the smaller bore 375H&H and 416 Rem Mag solids get reliable through the skull to the brain penetration.

375H&H you go girl!

All you 458lott types might be on to something there with that 2400fps speed.

2 bore? Forget it! The 1800's are long past.
Anyone heard of a failure to penetrate with a 460weatherby?

I find it hard to believe that some of these tried and true African cartrdiges that go back almost 100 years are not capable of killing elephants. But anyway, not that Art Alphin is the last word on anything, but in his book "Any Shot You Want", which has multiple authors (and I highly recommend) he lists a penetration index (he came up with) for various calibers. Here's a link:

http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetr2.htm

By the way, the 375 H&H with 350g Woodleighs at 2350 fps has an index of 138 ... The same bullet out of a 375 Weatherby at 2500 fps has a penetration index of 157

I'm guessing this thread is going to get some mileage lol, and I didn't start it!

Chuck

Duh- You would think that someone with Boddingtons experience woulkd have tried Flat Nose monometal solids. Of course poor shooting might just have something to do with it. A .50BMG in the foot is still a .50BMG in the foot energy cant make up for poor shooting Hitting a ele perfectly in the brain from odd angles isnt all that easy. -Rob

If a gun writer doesn't get free bullets, he wont' use them or write about them. Chances are that the bullets CTB complains about were factory-loaded (Hornady, perhaps?).

The rest of us will invest in, and use what works.

George

I think I will just tag this so I can follow this thread.
I think it is interesting that the tried and proven stoppers are now not capable of killing el's aka 470NE,500NE,577NE. Just because some one wrote a nice little article with a nice chart.
Bill

My greatest fear has come upon me, my 500 N.E. is not enough gun for jumbo's.
I'll have to sell it and get me the tried and true 375 for jumbo's. I am amazed after thousands and thousands of ele killed by the likes of men like Taylor, Hunter, Harland, Grobler, Nychens,etc., etc. did not end up as rasberry jam with all of the inferior calibers and ammo they used.
Will, it's time for you to post your 458WM and 470N.E. in the classified and get yourself a real penetrator.

What happened to the old technique of using trained mice to tree the Jumbo??

I have seen him in person order ammunition at the SCI show and refused to get it for free. He pulled out his wallet and handed them his CC while theykept telling him it would be for free. He said no.

I am not trying to defend him and don't know him and I really don't care one way or the other. It just was surprised he didn't take it for free like I thought he would. He just told them what bullet ect he wanted.

I've tested 300gr Woodleigh round nose solids at ~2500fps out of a 375H&H vs. 500gr Woodleigh rounf nose solids at 2145fps out of a 458wm vs. 450gr North Fork Flat nose solids in elephants.

The 375H&H and the 300gr 458wm load penetrated about equally, with both exiting the rear of the skull on a frontal brain shot, repeatably and reliably in the case of the 458wm. Only tried one 375H&H round so the results could be changed with more samples.

The 450gr Noth Fork load far, far outpenetrates either of the other two.

If Boddington is having 500gr bullets at 2150fps fail to penetrate to or through elephant brains, he's using bad bullets.

The 500gr Woodleighs at 2145fps are 100% successful in fully penetrating the skull in about 50 samples, about 80% frontal and 20% from the side. I do believe that if angles were such that the bullet encountered the far side zygomatic arch on a side brain shot the bullet would probably stop there, but that is well beyond having reached the brain. Two 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps stoppped on the far side arch and I'm not sure and don't think the extra 95fps would enable the bullets to puch through.

JPK

quote:

Boddington fesses up to admitting his own 450-3 inch 500gr bullets at 2150fps has failed to penetrate to the brain on multiple elephants.

Did he state whether this was the actual, chronographed velocity? Maybe that were not really going 2150 fps.

Boddington certainly has a world of experience, so I don't doubt his claim, I do however disagree with him in that I believe the 450-400 has more than ample penetration, it has never let me down, but I handload it with GS Custom flat nose solids or Woodleighs at 2135 FPS..I agree that the 416s have more than ample penetration but I have seen the .375 fail on frontal shots on buffalo by running along the outside of the rib cage, but in both cases it was with a soft, not a solid..

At any rate I believe that any caliber from .375 up is suitable for elephant or any other animal on this planet if one can shoot straight.

Check the same discussion on the African Hunting forum a few days ago. Bert Jones bullets were determined to have a velocity of 1900-1950 fps. Ivan Carter reported one round was chroned at about 1800 fps. May explain a lot.

Dak

First comes shot placement.

But a close second comes bullet construction.

I have not yet read this article.

But Craig Boddington is far too experienced to confuse poor shot placement with a bullet penetration problem.

Given adequate bullet weight and consequent sectional density, coupled with adequate velocity, failure to penetrate has to be caused by poor bullet construction.

A .450 bore shooting 450s-500s at 2,150+ fps is more than adequate in each of these categories across the board.

So, if penetration is lacking, I would say one would have to blame the bullets.

Oh Well Gives me a good excuse to sell it all and start over with some"Lil Guns"

I agree with MR and Will, it has to be bullet failure or velocities were too low, or both. It can't be anything else unless bullet hit the extremely thick/hard bone of the ivory sockets, then again CTB would most likely have stated such.

Dirk

I have waited to get a copy of the Sept. issue of G&A before responding to this post. I carefully read his article and really couldn't find anything in it to criticize. He never says that the 470. 458 etc won't kill an elephant. The point he is making is how difficult the frontal brain shot can be when it is a big bull and it is looking down his nose at you. The amount of trunk etc. that needs to be penetrated is daunting. This is especially true when you consider that the last two bulls he tried a frontal on where Kalahari bulls. If you have never seen one you can't imagine how big they are. I would guess at least a third if not half again as big as Zambezi or Mosambican bulls. In fact I shot a huge tuskless cow in Matetsi Unit 2 a few years ago that had a 21" hind foot measured on the elephant not the track. It would produce a track over 22'. Any place else if you came across a bull track that large you would have a vision of 100 lb. tusks dancing in your head as you followed it.

His point is that some of the big calibers may(I repeat may) not have sufficient penetration to reach the brain on steeply upward angled shots. That is a good reason not to get too close to a big bull. The closer you get the more steep the upward angle will be. If you look at a cleaned bull skull you will see that you have about a 4" wide by 5 or 6" high target to aim for to avoid the tusk sockets which can stop any bullet. Also remember that most of us have most of our experience with smaller elephants, cows and tuskless cows. They have much smaller heads and are more easily penetrated. I have come to the conclusion that I will avoid frontal shots on big bulls especially if they are uphill from me as they require hitting a small target, require a lot of penetration and it is easy to misjudge the proper bullet angle to reach the brain. He will have to turn to get away sometime then exposing a side brain shot.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Duh- You would think that someone with Boddingtons experience woulkd have tried Flat Nose monometal solids.

My thoughts exactly.

465,
All is fine EXCEPT, that if one is coming to eat you then I suggest that you go ahead and take the frontal brain shot...

IMO, a flat nose solid will reach the brain at 2150 FPS even on big bulls from any angle but the "problem" is placing the bullet correctly under somewhat stressfull conditions at what is actually a small target. That is why its a real good practice to try and get a side shot on elephant..

That said, I have more confidence in my 416s at 2400 with a 400 gr. flat nose solid getting into the brain from any angle, than I do with any double rifle caliber.....those .416 do penetrate like a hot knife through butter with a proper bullet...

Ray,

Your right about the charge needing a frontal. But in a charge the elephant will drop it's head and when he does a shot in the middle of the forhead will hit the brain. It is also a short didtance through a minimal amount of bone. Any caliber suitable for elephant has enough penetration on that shot. Penetration isn't the issue then, stopping power is. If you miss the brain, all the penetration in the world won't help you if you don't stop the charge. Hence, my preference for bullets heavier than 450 grains in the 458+ claibers.

465H&H

I suspect Craig will try all ammo- I have liked what little I have seen of him.

The .500NE and .470NE are both marginal on frontal brain shots on big bulls. Paul Smith (chifuti Safari's) hit a bull 4 times with his .500NE - none made it through. We chrono'ed that ammo at 2180fps!

Andrew Dawson had penetration failure with his .470 and Mike Payne has sufficient failures or marginal jobs that he came looking for a set of .500/416 Barrels for his Krieghoff specifically for use on elephant hunts (he'll stay with the .470 for buff).

For a client... Any of the big bore english rounds are fine. Clients don't get the awkward angle shots (ie not quite front on, such that you have to shoot through the tusk to hit the brain - or through the shoulder and into the brain on a departing bull)

It is largely because I favour penetration above all else for elephant, and like an impact velocity above 2250fps for lion that I opted for a .500/416 for my double.

Oh my aching back!

And here I thought that the 9.3x62 was the miracle cartridge.

Now that you have a 500/416, is it now the new miracle?

Hi Will

No, my 9,3 is still my favourite – and more than enough penetration for ele. However, I have always owned something bigger for ele cows in the jesse and wounded nasty things in any sort of cover. These have included a .450 NE, two .404’s a .458 lott and currently are my .500/.416 and (gasp) a Mauser 66 (Yup a push feed in .458 Win!!!).

There is also a world of difference between me hunting and backing up a client. This year I had to shoot a lioness that pushed home a charge after my client shot the male. I hit her at 6 paces. The other two also charged but stopped at about 10m. I was glad I had my 9,3 in my hands as 6 up beats 2 when there are multiple incoming cats. The other scare this year has also been a lion. Client wounded him and he objected and came over to discuss things. The client got his second shot in at about 6 paces (he slid to a halt 2 paces away). When do you – as a PH – join in the fray- especially as the size of the tip is going to vary considerably depending on weather one does or not ( a wee $60,000 ele/lion hunt!). I didn’t fire, but still question my decision. Under those circumstances it was the Krieghoff double in my hands that helped me wait for my client. Two big bullets beats one little one that close up

Thanks for yet another interesting subject. Ganyana are you saying that given the same type of bullet, say a Barnes solid, or a Flat Nose like the North Fork, the 416s will out penetrate a 470/458/500 class cartridge? jorge

Arrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

IS he trying to tell me that the year I spent developing my 550 Gibbs was all for naught?
Thank the Lord I kept my 7STW for the big stuff!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...
however, this may be the exception

Ganyana,

It is the bolt versus double conundrum. Should one quote oneself?

"If you make a final approach on the elephant with the gunbearer behind you, you’ll just have to make the most of it with whatever rifle is in hand as there is little chance of switching rifles at that point."

Jorge

The 416's (rigby/rem/taylor 500/416 etc) Have superb penetration with any decent bullet. More than is necessary for most client use. Given similar bullets say 300grn woodleigh from a .375 and a 400grn Woodleigh from a .416, the 416 will out penetrate the the .375.

Any of the 416's will far out penetrate anything in the .458 win, .470, .500 NE, .577 NE range of rounds.

The .458 Lott/watts /Ackley? Don't really know. When Art Alphin and I were dissecting ele's from the culls the .458 Watts was around but rare Brian Marsh used one) and never saw an actual Lott until years later - so my experiences are not completely based on comparing the same type of bullets.

I load 450grn Barnes Banded solids in the Lott. They penetrate very well- not as much as my 9,3 or .416 rigby loaded with Barnes banded solids but more than enough to get the job done under all circumstances xcept possibly a south bound heart shot on a north bound hippo or ele.

I have seen a couple of folk using the 550grn Woodleighs out of the Lott. Dang they hit hard, but have never recoveded a bullet so cannot answer. .465H&H is a fan of the 550grn in a lott and being a parks biologist does things like dig for bullets....

Back in 1967 Brian Marsh traded his .450 No 2 for a .450 Watts because the watts had better penetration and knock down power. Brian was only cropping bulls.

I cannot handel recoil terribly well (ask Saeed there is vedeo evidence), But I firmly belive that if you wish to improve on the .416 ribgy/rem on elephant you need to move up to a .458 Lott and then to a .500 Jeffery/505 Gibbs.

On Buff there is a significant improvement in knockdown effect between a .505 and a .458 Lott, and both are better (with Barnes X) than any .416 - if you go by visual effect of bullet hitting the animal.

In the last 44 buff I have personaly shot with the 9,3 I have not needed a second bullet and not needed to walk far to collect body either, so why the heck should I shoot a .505?

Ganyana: That was a great reply, thanks! But...I'm confused, a little anyway. From what I gather, my 416 Rigby with 400gr solids is better for elephants than the calibers mentioned? But those in turn are better "stoppers" for buffalo (with softs) because of the bigger bore & more lead? I know we've discussed this before, but it seems like my 416 Rigby loaded with the proper bullets is all the rifle I'll ever need. jorge

Hi Ganyana, I'm currently converting my CZ Safari Classic in 375 H&H to 470 Capstick (holds six cartridges 500g A-Frame or GS solid at 2400 fps), should be done by December. What's been your experience with the 470 NE on elephant and buff?

Chuck

Jorge

As a client- that .416 is all you will ever need for buff or ele. I belive the key to easy buffalo is right bullet ( Barnes TSX, Swift A frame, GS custome, Stewarts etc) and I like a high shoulder shot- break the spine- prevents alot of hassel but is not for everybody.

Stopping rifles are an interesting breed. In parks we had a bunch of "jesse Guns" one per station. A .500NE with 18" Barrels. Everybody "knew" they wouldn't reach the brain on a big bull ele, but that is not what they were for- it was cows and wounded buff in the jesse. Watched Ian Coulson "double" one of them at an incomming buff at about 10 paces. It stopped - not really sure why- bullets didn't hit heart or spine- but that buff just decided that all that KE was more than the system could cope with and died on the spot!

Converley, Clive Connolly got 4 good hits into an oncomming buff with his .577 and got tossed at the end of it. Sure the buff was so buggered it couldn't manage a turn arround and come back for seconds but still...

Thanks again Ganyana. I guess the 416 Rigby (or Remington) come darn close to the ideal heavy rifle for Africa, certainly for a client, but a strong argument can be made for a PH as well. jorge

I might be able to add a few points of interest to this particular thread for you guys. In the last couple of years I have been testing penetration of solids rather extensively.

I have an indoor shooting range, or test facility in which I do my test work. I have a test box for this sort of thing, I use a mix of wet news print and magazines or catalogs. I have been using this mix for about 5 years, before that I used straight news print. My wife receives between 5-10 INCHES of catalogs in the mail, EVERY DAY! I decided to start using this material, it did however not allow me to relate to older data with straight news print. My current mix is 6 inches of wet news print and 2 inches of magazines/catalogs. This is roughly 30-35% tougher than straigh wet print. This is stacked in a box that can hold 64 inches of material, and has wheels so that it can be moved around.

I have enough data to be able to correlate between the box and animal tissue. Until the last couple of years most of my test work has been done with expanding bullets. However, my development of .500 diameter rifle cartridges brought me to the point of having to give very serious thought to penetration of solids, and I have learned a lot! It has really been an eye opening experience for me.

In earlier years I used mostly 458 Lott for elephant and buffalo. For solids the old standard 500 gr Barnes Solid Round Nose was the only thing for me. For 458 Winchester I opted for the 450 gr version. This worked fine, as far as I knew, but I really never put them to the hard test. Sure, I tried them in older box versions with 48 inches of straight wet print, they burned right through, so I figured that was plenty good enough. In 2005 I switched to the 500 gr Barnes Banded Solid--FLAT NOSE. I noticed on buffalo this bullet hit noticeably harder and penetration was deep, the bullet seemed to crunch through anything a buffalo could present.

I designed the 50 B&M Long--a .500 diameter cartridge that fits in Winchester M70 WSM actions and capable of shooting 500 gr bullets at 2100 fps--with 18 inch barrels. Of course bullet choices are limited in .500 diameter for the sort of missions that I planned with my 50! So we started making bullets through SSK Industries, aka JD Jones. JD had several designs that he came up with, but for feeding proper I decided to try a Round Nose design with the same profile as a Woodleigh FMJ. I figured it had been good enough for the last few decades, and it should work for me, Right? Wrong--very very wrong!

The first bullets were light for caliber--408 grs. made from solid brass. The first rifles were also 1:18 twist barrels, which had proven great for accuracy, so we figured we were right on the money with the twist rates, and tests with all expanding bullets were successful and showed no issues. But when I started testing these solids a different story started to be written. These 408 gr bullets would not penetrate in a straight line. They tracked straight for about 50%-60% of total penetration, then started to veer off course and out of the box most of the time! Not good! Later we made the same bullet from a copper alloy--weighs a bit more at 426 grs. Same story however. So I started thinking about increasing weight, by adding 2/10ths of an inch to the base of the bullet we brought it up to 512 grs, still with the same Woodleigh nose profile. While penetration did increase from 32 inches with the 408-426 gr bullet--to 42 inches with the 512 gr bullet, they still strayed off course and I could not even keep them in the box! Velocity would run 2070 fps with the little gun in an 18 inch barrel.

I already had a base line with the 500 gr Barnes Solid FN at 2270 fps from the 458 Lott--it would penetrate 62-63 inches of the mix and on occasion exit the rear (2X6 treated). The 450 Barnes Solid FN would give consistent 56-57 inches of dead straight penetration from my 458 B&M at 2250 fps. Both of these bullets are more than adequate for any mission one would need them for. So this was my base line test--

In addition I started testing some of my other rifles and calibers with solids, and was really surprised with some of these results. I had some 416 Remingtons loaded with Round Nose Barnes Solids at 2415 fps. Surely an old standby that has been proven time and again right? How about 37 inches of total penetration and the bullets started to turn at 32 inches! Next was the 470 Capstick--500 gr Barnes Solid Round Nose at 2250 fps total penetration 34 inches and started off course at 24 inches! I tried a 500 gr Woodleigh at 2170 fps from the 470 Capstick and it only penetrated a total of 26 inches, started turning at 20 inches and in some cases was turned around backwards in the mix, if it stayed in the box at all! Holy cow--these sort of bullets have been used for years, but as far as I was concerned I would never go to the field with poor performance like this!

OK now I decided to see what my "Big Dog" could do! A 510 Wells built on a Ruger Mag action with 24 inch barrel! I was having a great vision about my box being blown apart, the back being shot out, and all sorts of things! I first tried the 535 gr Woodleigh FMJ at 2335 fps, 40-42 inches of total penetration if it stayed in the box and started turning at 38 inches. Next in line was the 570 gr Barnes Flat Nose at 2325 fps. I expected big things from this, but only received 43 inches of total penetration. Now to keep the record straight in my Ruger the full flat nose version will not feed--I had the meplat turned down to .265 caliber to facilitate feed and function. This took 20 grs of weight off, leaving a 550 gr bullet. I conclude two things, 1. Not enough meplat 2. I think if the velocity were lowered to 2200 fps that pentration would be "somewhat" deeper. It was so far an eye opening experience!

With this in mind I changed two things. First we quickly put together a rifle with a 1:12 Twist rate. While 1:18 was great for accuracy, and just fine with expanding bullets and straight line penetration, I thought that increased stability was needed to stabilize the solids during penetration. In addition to this we took the 512 gr Round Nose and flattened the nose with a .300 meplat, which gave me a 485 gr bullet. At the same time we designed a new version very similar to the Barnes Nose profile that weighed in at 510 grs. I also tried a few of JD's flat nose profile bullets at 455 grs.

With a new 1:12 Twist barrel the 512 gr Round Nose did in fact perform better. It would now give a total of 46-48 inches of penetration, straight for 85-90% of the total penetration. Better, but not quite where I had hoped. And I still did not trust anything that turned or veered off course, what if that last 10% of penetration just happened to be just before the brain of an elephant?

The new flat nose designed arrive about a week after the 1:12 twist barreled rifle. To be honest I expected some good results--but no where close to what I actually received!

First up was the 485 gr at 2120 fps with the .300 meplat. Derived from the exact same 512 gr Round Nose bullet. Penetration went to 60-62 inches--dead straight line penetration! An increase of 14 inches over the same 512 gr bullet 100% straight to the end! I was astounded at this. A .300 meplat had made this much difference.

The new 510 gr Flat Nose profile consistently drove to 64 inches and sometimes out the back of the box at 2050 fps and 100% straight line penetration! This was equal to my 458 Lott with the 500 gr Barnes Solid Flat Nose bullets at 2250 fps---I was where I wanted to be with the little rifles in 500 diameter.

More tests with lighter flat nose solids, 455 gr JDJ designs would penetrate 55-57 inches, in a dead straight line! Very much equal to the 450 gr Barnes Solids in 458 caliber at 2250 fps.

Shortly after I tried a few tests with these bullets in the 1:18 Twist barrels and once again I was very amazed that each test the bullets would travel straight and true, even in a twist that would not come close to stabilizing Round Nose designs during penetration. Now I will not make the statement that the 1:18 twist can be made up for with a flat nose design, as my tests were not complete, and before making that statement I would rather test a bit more, but it certianly leans in that direction, and I am fairly confident that if I wanted to use some of the rifles with the 1:18 twist with these new flat nose designs that the mission could be accomplished. However, all my new 50s have 1:12 Twist barrels.

What did I learn? Nose Profile is everything when it comes to deep and straight line penetration! More important than Sectional Density--more important than anything! I think if you guys take a look you will see most all the new solids or fmj bullets will start to have flat nose profiles! With the GS Custom bullets taking the lead, Barnes has followed, the new Hornady Dangerous Game FMJs have a small flat nose meplat, and I suspect Woodleigh and others will follow. Of course Mike at North Fork has a flat nose solid, and he knows this too.

I was a little slow to catch on, about 8-12 months after Barnes, but I got it now!

I apoligize for this being so lengthy, but I could never get a point across in short format! Not sure I can get it across now, but I hope this explains some things, and some or a lot of you already know this.

Oh and by the way last November I took one of my 50 B&M longs to Zimbabwe where I shot 2 PAC elephants with the 510 gr Solid at just a tad over 2100 fps. The first was a frontal brain shot where the bullet entered just above and between the eyes, traversed the skull, penetrated the brain completely and out the back. Bullet lost in the body somewhere. The second was a broadside shoulder/heart shot at 40 yds--the bullet penetrated completely through and exited, elephant stumbled but regained footing, I had a slight elevation and placed the second shot from the rear top of the back, this bullet traveled through 7 feet of elephant, through the heart, and exited the front of the chest, a quick 3rd shot was about 2 feet further to the rear-did not exit, but was not found either. On the same trip I tried the 50 out on 5 cape buffalo--4 cows and a great old bull with great success. I feel all the test work and digging around in wet print had payed great dividends! I am quite satisfied with the results I obtained, and in addition without doubt that flat meplat makes a difference on impact, it hits very hard up front with noticeable animal reactions, also crunches through bone like hot butter!

If nothing else remember "NOSE PROFILE" is everything with solids and straight/deep penetration!

Michael

Ganyana, how do the 320 grain Woodliegh solids penetrate, are they an acceptable solid in the 9.3X74?

Michael458

Great report. I am also a firm believer in the FN design. Uses nothing else from now on in my 416 and 577..

michael458,

Thanks for the report and effort that went into making the data. A table of results would be a nice summary.

But besides that, I also never would have thought that the flat nose solids would have made such a difference but am a late-coming believer now.

It is one reason that I was sort of disappointed with the new Hornady solids as I suspect the relatively small flat nose will have little benefit. I know that all manufacturers are in a catch 22 in that they want a flat nose but the bullets will need to feed in most bolt action rifles. I wish they had brought out a flat nose for single & double rifles only with a real flat nose.

The North Fork and GS are almost a cylinder as it is and about as close to a cylinder as they can probably get. Who would have thought shooting cylinders would be the best penetration design?!! Thankfully it ocurred to someone.

I think the way around the feeding problem in a bolt action is to feed a flat nose as the first round and whatever bullets that feed okay to fill up the magazine.

I think (maybe) your tests also point out that bullet weight still helps, twist is not king, and though brass is not best from a fouling standpoint it is better that a traditional jacketed round nose.

Then again, I see the flat nose solids as having rather limited application, most notably elephant and followup shots at buff. I do not see the benefit of solids that zing right through an animal over softs.

Thanks again for your efforts.

Buffalo
Excellent. There are many good FN designs out there in 416, I don't know about the 577, as I have paid little attention to that. In the 416 I have worked extensively with the Barnes FN Solids, and find both the 350 and 400 gr bullets excellent. I also did a test recently to confirm some issues concerning velocity and penetration. I think we have all heard that there is a point of diminishing returns concerning too much or too little velocity--when speaking strickly of penetration with solids. I have always been of the opinion that dependiing upon bullet, caliber, nose profile, and other factors that more velocity will give you less penetration. In my 416 B&M I put that to the test recently with a 350 Barnes FN at 3 different velocities. 2450 fps---2250 fps and 2100 fps. The load at 2100 fps did in fact penetrate the deepest-the 2250 fps load a little less by 2-3 inches average, and the 2450 fps another 2 inches less-2450 fps being 4-5 inches less than the 2100 fps. All 3 had more than ample penetration to do any mission asked of them, with the 2450 fps load doing much more damage up front than the other loads. I am quite sure that higher velocity would have kept giving less penetration, but for my purposes this was enough to prove the point and I have not completed the test further to see the top end.

For the bottom end I have a good feeling that 1900 to 2000 fps is at the low end. Reason being is that a 455 gr JDJ flat nose at 2150 + or minus fps will give on average 55-57 inches in the 50 B&M Long. In a 50 B&M Super Short (Win M70 WSSM action with 16 inch barrel) I can run the same bullet at 1750 fps for 43 inches of total dead straight penetration--big difference from 2150 fps.

So we see velocity plays a very important role in the penetration of solids--not as important as NOSE PROFILE however. Without stability all else is moot. I have always liked 2100 to 2250 fps, with proper nose profile you can get to where you need to be.

Will

I am with you, I would also have never believed that Flat Nose designs would do far better than the traditional RN. GS Custom bullets I think maybe were the first ones to catch on to this, on on their web site have the best explaination of this I have ever seen! They have it right! It just took the rest of us a little time to catch up to them.

The new Hornady Dangerous Game Solids I have and have some loaded to test, but have not got to it yet. I suspect very strongly that the meplat is not large enough to make much difference. The very fact that these need to feed in a bolt gun is a problem from time to time with different models. I can speak only of two--Ruger and Winchester. My Winchesters will feed the large flat meplats of the bullets JD and I worked with in .500 caliber (true .500--not
.510) without issues. My Ruger 77 in 510 Wells will not feed the Barnes 570 Solid at all. Thus I had to have some of the bullets meplat cut down. However, being a strong Winchester M70 fan it matters little to me as long as the Winchesters will feed them.

I have not tried the North Fork or the GS bullets, but I suspect some rifles would have some issues, I don't think the Winchesters would.

Bullet weight does make a difference, sectional density of course. But not as much difference as NOSE PROFILE does! The bullets I settled with are a copper alloy of sorts, and have two bands cut in them to reduce or eliminate any fouling. Brass can also be used, but is a bit lighter for the same bullet than the copper. So I opted for the heavy side going with the copper.

Correct once again--limited use for these sort of bullets, and I suspect that is why it has taken so many years for the major bullet companies to come around to the proper nose profile designs. Of course to many of folks like us it is EVERYTHING, and extremely important, but to the general shooting public it represents little in the market place! Elephant--hippo--and second + shots on buffalo--this is where the solids make a living!

I appreciate it!
Michael

Micheal, you are spot on. The importance of the flat point is well known to big bore revolver hunters of big game. I have seen the 475 linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh, and 500 JRH shooting wide flat point bullets out penetrate my 416 Rigby and a 458 Win Mag with round nose solids. The use of flat point solids in the rifles changes the situation completely and then the big rifles rien supreme.

Michael, I have a custom 1-10" twist barrel on my 416 WBY. Have done testing with 400 grs Barnes Banded FN solids and 410 grs GS FN solids. Testet them at 2700 f/s and 2400 f/s, and 2700 f/s outpenetrates other (lesser) loads every time (wet phone books as test medium). Both Barnes and GS solids penetrate extremely well.
In the 585 a 800 grs GS FN solid at 2460 f/s will penetrate about the same as the 416 WBY.

Dont you think your results with lesser penetration with the faster loads is caused by insufficient bullet stabilization??

JWP475
Thanks for bringing that into the conversation JWP. I have mentioned this and used this example before, just slipped my mind currently, however the handgun folks have been on to this for a long time, all the way back to Elmer and his Keith bullets! Improved upon later by JD and some of his handgun designed Flat Nose bullets, and then followed by many such as Cast Performance! If one goes all the way back to Elmer I wonder why Elmer did not transfer the Keith bullets to rifles? I imagine because Elmer did not have elephant--hippo--buffalo on his agenda but a time or two, and little study went into it. Way back when playing with lever guns and 45/70 I did the same thing, those big Cast Performance bullets would drive far deeper than any other bullet I could get my hands on at the time. At moderate velocities however they don't hit too hard up front! They drove deep, but not much reaction on impact!

Buffalo
Which brings me to you! I am surprised that you are getting deeper penetration at 2700 fps than at 2400 fps. However, I will not dispute your results at all-I like the test medium, can't get any better than what you are using. I did not get those results however, and I too am using a 1:10 twist in my little 416 B&M. Bullets are stable--both in flight, but more important when they have to go to work and penetrate. I am getting 100% dead straight penetration. I don't have a solution for this.
I can say that you are probably using the best two bullets on the market, and I can say that we are dealing with a "Brand New Science" and there is much to learn! I doubt this matter has been studied as much as it is right now in all our history! Some like GS have made great leaps ahead of the rest of us, the rest like me just trying to catch up.

I will also grant that your 400s at 2700 hit extremely hard up front too! And how much penetration in our medium is enough--more than enough and just adequate? I don't care much for adequate--so lets deal with enough and more than enough! From my limited studies I find that in my mix-wet print/magazines--that with solids I can expect roughly about 30-35% more penetration in animal tissue. Five feet in the mix will give me around 7 feet in animal tissue. Bone has to mixed in and I use wood 2X4s to try and mess the bullet up--sometimes even more dense material like this new fiber board--extremely dense material that one can't even drive a nail through. With the tests I have done 4 inches of 2X4s make zero difference in penetration and it remains dead straight with either the Barnes Flat Nose solids or the ones JD and I have been working with in the 50s. The fiber board, put in at extreme angles with 2 inches of the stuff, made zero difference in total penetration and bullets remained dead straight.

Pleased with these results and confident that this is more than enough, and far more than adequate. From field experience I know for a fact that 450-500 gr Barnes Solid FN bullets are more than enough when driven from 2150 fps to 2250 fps. Those are my base lines.

With my limited test in velocity with the 416 caliber 350 gr Barnes FN all the loads, 2100 fps--2250 fps and 2450 fps where more than enough to do any job demanded of them. FYI I still elect to go with the 2450 fps, even with very slightly less total penetration, to get that hard transfer of "energy" (for lack of a better term, as I am not much for energy numbers)up front! These flat nose designs at velocities of 2250-2450 fps or more in your case transfers loads of energy, causing increased trauma and damage up front, then eventually slowing down to give deep penetration more than adequate, and more than enough to do the job. I will stay with 2450 fps with these--you can have the 2700 thank you very much!

Rest assured had my tests not been stable during penetration I would not have carried the rifle or cartridge to the field at all.

This is good stuff eh?

Concerning the subject matter of this entire thread, I don't think Craig mentions exactly what bullet was used with the failure of the big bore in question--but I bet big bucks it was not a proper Flat Nose profile like the GS Bullets! I think Craig should have payed way more attention to that issue alone, than to just speak about bore diameter. The bullet after all is the most important component to the equation---of course making the assumption that proper shot placement was involved! Like I said "Nose Profile" is everything!

Michael

Oh and By the way, Buffalo, Will and JWP, thanks so much for the replies back-for a couple of days I did not think anyone from AR was going to even speak to me because I am listed as "New Member" and not the famous "One of Us"! Just because I am new to this forum does not mean by any stretch that I am a new shooter! I enjoy the replies and the info greatly! And I am not much for forums anyway, but on some subjects that I have interest in it is good to have someone to converse with from time to time! Thanks!
Michael

Why do you think big-bore handguns can be so effective? My .475 Linebaugh handily out penetrates my .416 Rem (loaded with Woodleigh solids) in my independent testing, and it has relatively poor sectional density (.265 for a .420 grain .476-inch bullet versus .330 for a 400 grain .416) and relatively low velocity (1,350 fps versus 2,400).