quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

For me, I will stay with the Flat Nose solids, that appear to give superior performance in both animal flesh and any sort of medium. I don't see a down side to that. Michael

Agree with you Michael - again..

n having to work so my comment is a little late. Zim parks used flat nosed bullets for .404 and .425. However, feeding trouble dictated that the second run of bullets for the .425's had a slightly rounded profile- very much like the woodleigh 9,3 bullets. Feeding bullets with a big meplat was a problem in many "issue" rifles. For a sport hunter, any decent gunsmith should be able to solve the feeding issues- but have seen many .458's and .458 Lotts (particularly on the CZ550 actions) that will not reliable feed barned banded solids.

Assuming the best in design and quality, I am convinced that on elephant whether one chooses a RN or a FN solid does not matter.

If properly placed, both RN and FN solids will penetrate plenty enough to kill. Any more penetration than that is not necessary.

And IMHO no one these days should be using solids on buffalo, given the superb, deep-penetrating bonded softs and monometal expanding bullets that are readily available. I will never use another solid on buff.

Also - and this is no small point - in bolt rifles especially, the nod absolutely must go to 100% perfect feeding reliability. FNs are deficient in that regard in most if not all staggered column magazine rifles.

Research can assist in predicting results, but at some point one needs to stop counting angels on heads of pins, accept and leave well enough alone and then just go hunting.

Ganyana & MrLexma

I will probably start some crap with this comment, however my limited experience with CZs I have not seen them feed anything reliably. This is only in two guns--thus extremely limited information that I am basing my judgement on-but neither would even feed round nose bullets, and neither would retain cartridges in the magazines! Both were 458 Lotts-neither belonged to me of course.

I can only speak with authority concerning the Winchester M70s--I own over 100 different M70s currently, and well over 1/2 of those being 416 and up! The only issues I have ever had was retaining larger straight wall cartridges in the
M70s, SSK is able to sort that out with ease. All have fed flat nose bullets without any issues at all 100% reliability.

I have one Ruger that will not feed them at all!

I go to the field with M70s-so the rest is moot to me.

I say if your rifle feeds them 100% still I can't see a down side? I do agree that one must be 100% reliable or it is a no go! Of course that goes for any part of the system, sights, feeding, bullets, ammo everything must be 100%.

mrlexma

I tend to agree with your thoughts of a quality Soft for cape buff hunting, especially for the first shot.

I have always used a double for cape buff hunting and always hit them with a soft first.

I always carried a Soft in the right and a Solid in the left. I think that is one of the advantages of a double.

When ever a second shot could be fired it was a solid. Also I always reloaded with 2 Solids on the follow up or the approach.

Once on the approach I had a buff that was still scrabbling around a little and he was facing me. I quickly changed to a Soft so I might be able to recover one, which worked.

Also on one cape buff, after shot one and two, I reloaded with 2 solids, moved a short distance foward, the buff was running off,and I could see the herd behind the buff. I quickly changed out the Solid in the right bbl for a Soft and fired. The buff went down and I reloaded with another soft and used it for the finisher, keeping the Solid in reserve in case of a charge.

The ability to change ammo from Soft to Solid quickly is another advantage of a double IMHO.

If I had a bolt rifle that would feed FN Solids 100% I would definately use them.

If my rifle was not 100% with FN bullets, but would shoot them into the same group as my,RN Solids, then I might carry a few to load as the first round up when elephant hunting, with RN Solids in the rest of the Magazine.

On my first three buff the PH wanted solids only. .458" solids work fine and kill quickly so long as your shot is good.

I want to try a soft first, to see if they can die quicker. But the one subsequent buff was taken on elephant tracks and I only had solids with me. No reason in the world not to shoot a buff with a solid, if thats what you've got.

JPK

Oh My God! I know the end must be near, but I have to agree with both JPK and 450! Solids are fine for buff either as second + shots or even first shots!

We live in a fortunate world today with many, many fine softs for buff. Swift is one of my favorites, Woodleighs, Barnes and so forth. First shot up soft for buffalo, followed by solids for sure! If your first shot was good, the most likely second shot is from the rear, a good solid is a comfort in that situation.

I will also tell you another little secret. In 2006 I took a prototype 50 to the bush! I had done all my test work-of course-using softs of various .500 caliber bullets. Shooting nothing but plains game critters, kudu,wildebeast, zebra, eland, things like that. Guess what? Even though I had done my homework and had good confidence in the softs and velocities that I was running, I still backed them up with solids, because if a bullet failed or exploded on bone or what have you, then I wanted something to drill holes that I knew would not break up on anything. So I backed up those shots with solids even on normal plains game. My test work was good, I had no surprises and no failures, but I was glad to have a bullet I knew for a fact I could count on! It is still a long way from the rear of a zebra or what have you to the vitals! Good insurance I say!

Today I am once again going to the field next week. Tried and almost proven expanding HP for bear. I am tuning my rifle with a few solids to get in those hard from the rear shots if I need to do so!

Nothing wrong with good solids-can save your bacon, can keep a good hunt---well Good! Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore-those solids will help you get what you need!

I can't believe I concur with JPK!
M

"If your first shot was good, the most likely second shot is from the rear..."

Not if your rifle is a double!

"Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore-those solids will help you get what you need!"

Got to agree with this. A one shot kill on a buff means your second shot was too slow. Even when you spine them they deserve another.

JPK

JPK
OH MY GOD! I knew you would absolutely have to throw some BS in even if we agree!

Second shot to the rear "not if you have a double"!

Maybe, better be fast with your double! I might not be a millisecond behind you, we are talking about "aimed fire" not just snatching triggers!

Shoot until you cannot shoot anymore! Regardless of the game at hand! I have had people, guides what have you, ask "Why did you shoot him so much?" Answer---The Problem was not solved yet! Shoot until the problem is solved or you don't have a shot, or you are out of ammo! Nothing else will suffice! This is where the solids come in handy! The dance has begun now, and the perfect shot may not be available anymore!

Anyhow I like to shoot, who wants to only shoot once? What fun is that?

JPK, although we agree (first time in my short tenure here) that does not mean we will be swapping spit in the showers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HEH
M

Michael,

Watch the two recent episodes of Boddington missing a frontal shot on big Botswana bull elephant and then very quickly following them with succesful side brain shots on Tracks Across Africa. You will have to agree that no bolt rifle shooter could get their second shot in that fast.

465H&H

465

A fellow well practiced with a bolt gun can get some very fast second shots off. Shooting a heavy recoiling double the recovery time (for aimed fire) a bolt man might come close. Faster than a double? Probably not, however the times will be so close in real world scenarios it would not make much difference! You know what happens with two gunfighters where 1 of them is 3/4 of a second faster? You have two dead gunfighters!

Double faster than a bolt? Of course, it's all in the mechanics. How much faster? Not enough to make much of a difference in the vast majority of real world scenarios. Maybe on a charging lion or leopard that second shot would be real handy I think! Regardless thereof, I remain a bolt man!
Michael

Michael,

I am completely comfortable with either bolt or a double when after elephant. Boddington was able to kill both elephants with side brain shots on those two bulls. I was really amazed at how quickly he got those shots off. Not sure I could get them off that quick. If he had been using a bolt he would have been lucky to get in a heart/lung shot. More than likely a quartering away shot. Advantage to the double rifle.

465H&H

I think that many more of us would be double-gun guys if they were more affordable. That said, I will have to stick with my bolt-guns -- but I do love my bolt actions!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
JPK
OH MY GOD! I knew you would absolutely have to throw some BS in even if we agree!

Second shot to the rear "not if you have a double"!

Maybe, better be fast with your double! I might not be a millisecond behind you, we are talking about "aimed fire" not just snatching triggers!

JPK, although we agree (first time in my short tenure here) that does not mean we will be swapping spit in the showers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HEH
M

Your lack of experience with doubles is showing! There is absolutely no comparison between the speed of the second shot with a double and the second with a bolt, aimed, not aimed shooting the critter or shooting the shit! Third shots can be quite close, if the double man knows his business (and, imo, loads only one.) This isn't fiction, it is fact. For a jolt of reality, try looking up the time and score of the best double men vs the best bolt men on the Zim PH shooting test. And that is a six shot test! (Actually a lot more than a six shot test, but the timed/scored event I'm thinking about is six shots. IIRC, one each at 25, 20, 15yds and then one each at 15, 20, 25yds. Don't recall the time allowed or the time over deducts or the scoring for hits/misses. The test is detailed in one of the forums here.)

A fellow accustomed to the recoil of his big bore double will experience little or no muzzle rise, at leat in the 450NE-470NE class, little more in the 500 class. More than enough time to hit the buff again while he is very probably at the same aspect as the first shot. Dito with eles, except the impact will move the ele's head quite a bit, up to maybe 30*, ime, and you need to account for this.

No chance of swapping spit, no how, no way; so we're safe there!

JPK

Another advantage of a dounble is there is MUCH less of a chance of any problems getting off that second shot. There is ALWAYS the chance of a feeding/operating malfunction with a bolt rifle.

I have used bolt rifles for many years, but in using double rifles, I have learned/discovered, however you want to put it, tha for Me I feel much more comfortable hunting DG with a double.

I actually find doubles superior for ALL game taken mostly under 250 yards.

The immediate second shot has proven to be far more beneficial to me when hunting, than the larger magazine capacity of a bolt rifle.

And I use one of the fastest bolt rifles on the Planet.

This is of course comparing apples to apples, ie scoped double to scoped bolt rifle, or unscoped to unscoped as rthe case may be.

I never set out to prove it, I have just found it to be so.

Good Morning Gents

I see we were busy last night concerning the double vs bolt issue! Excellent.

I won't argue this point. As JPK points out my inexperience with a double is showing, for once he is correct. Maybe twice, but I don't have the time to go back that far!

I remain a bolt guy, lever guy too, and single shots! Good bad or don't matter! Sometimes these things are personal preference and we need not justify them. Both double and bolt will do the job. Doubles are fine pieces of work and art, and denote an era of African History of hunting. One needs not justify to me one way or the other. Still I love my Win M70s better!
M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As JPK points out my inexperience with a double is showing, for once he is correct. Maybe twice M

Don't push your luck with me JPK!

You are in for it now JPK! I figured out how to do those little smiley things!!!!!!!!
Michael

And the subject of doubles vs bolt guns:

See, I can play the emoticom game as well!!

Whitworth

Amen to that--another on and on--same old same old! Ever read the gun magazines? How many articles on this vs that--revolver vs auto--30/06 vs what have you and so on and so on and so on!

Not me this time---I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!

Refer back to my "Gunshop" story please, earlier somewhere in the book I have written in this thread!

I like these little smiley things!
Kids with new toys!
Michael

Hey Whitworth

You see that little chap above this post? You think he has flat nose cast bullets in those six shooters?

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hey Whitworth

You see that little chap above this post? You think he has flat nose cast bullets in those six shooters?

M

He does if he's smart!!

Revolvers? Bunkum, I am sure they are 45 ACP's!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I suspect Craig will try all ammo- I have liked what little I have seen of him.

The .500NE and .470NE are both marginal on frontal brain shots on big bulls. Paul Smith (chifuti Safari's) hit a bull 4 times with his .500NE - none made it through. We chrono'ed that ammo at 2180fps!

Andrew Dawson had penetration failure with his .470 and Mike Payne has sufficient failures or marginal jobs that he came looking for a set of .500/416 Barrels for his Krieghoff specifically for use on elephant hunts (he'll stay with the .470 for buff).

For a client... Any of the big bore english rounds are fine. Clients don't get the awkward angle shots (ie not quite front on, such that you have to shoot through the tusk to hit the brain - or through the shoulder and into the brain on a departing bull)

It is largely because I favour penetration above all else for elephant, and like an impact velocity above 2250fps for lion that I opted for a .500/416 for my double.

..

Not that it matters alot , but this makes sense to me .. ..

Not speaking from experience I would still prefer a 500 A-Sq. for elephant hunting ..

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Assuming the best in design and quality, I am convinced that on elephant whether one chooses a RN or a FN solid does not matter.

If properly placed, both RN and FN solids will penetrate plenty enough to kill. Any more penetration than that is not necessary.

And IMHO no one these days should be using solids on buffalo, given the superb, deep-penetrating bonded softs and monometal expanding bullets that are readily available. I will never use another solid on buff.

Also - and this is no small point - in bolt rifles especially, the nod absolutely must go to 100% perfect feeding reliability. FNs are deficient in that regard in most if not all staggered column magazine rifles.

Research can assist in predicting results, but at some point one needs to stop counting angels on heads of pins, accept and leave well enough alone and then just go hunting.

...


How someone can be in Massachusetts and be so intelligent is beyond my ... I agree whol heartedly ....>..It kind of seemed to me everyone around here was takeing the feeding of those great big flat nosess for granted ..Easy way to find out if your rifle will feed them , load 3 conventional bullets backward and slam the bolt back and forth ...,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Good Luck ......

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Assuming the best in design and quality, I am convinced that on elephant whether one chooses a RN or a FN solid does not matter.

If properly placed, both RN and FN solids will penetrate plenty enough to kill. Any more penetration than that is not necessary.

And IMHO no one these days should be using solids on buffalo, given the superb, deep-penetrating bonded softs and monometal expanding bullets that are readily available. I will never use another solid on buff.

Also - and this is no small point - in bolt rifles especially, the nod absolutely must go to 100% perfect feeding reliability. FNs are deficient in that regard in most if not all staggered column magazine rifles.

Research can assist in predicting results, but at some point one needs to stop counting angels on heads of pins, accept and leave well enough alone and then just go hunting.

...


How someone can be in Massachusetts and be so intelligent is beyond my ... I agree whol heartedly ....>..It kind of seemed to me everyone around here was takeing the feeding of those great big flat nosess for granted ..Easy way to find out if your rifle will feed them , load 3 conventional bullets backward and slam the bolt back and forth ...,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Good Luck ......

+2

465H&H

quote:

load 3 conventional bullets backward and slam the bolt back and forth

Thats a great feed testing idea!

I noticed how similar a backwards .375" Hornady 300 grain boat tail spire point is to wide meplat flat point. So firing one of these pill backwards would make it a flat point super boat tail. I wonder if the jacket base (now pointing forward) is thick enough to qualify as a poor mans solid. It certainly would have a weight foreword balance.

465

I don't have a flat nose bullet in my inventory that I shoot in any caliber, that would even come close to a conventional bullet loaded backwards! So that is no test at all! Sorry that one does not wash. All you are testing is to see if a conventional bullet loaded backwards will feed, nothing more.
Michael

I can't speak for anyone else, but I take nothing for granted, I have shot 1000s of flat nose bullets through my Winchesters, and not one at a time, full magazines. Reliability comes first, and the solids I shoot are 100% in my rifles!
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
465
All you are testing is to see if a conventional bullet loaded backwards will feed, nothing more.
Michael

I was just about to write exactly the same.. FN bullets are in different configurations Barnes Banded FN solids are not the same as GS Custom or North Fork FN`s. And no one is similar to an ordinary bullet loaded backwards. You have to try the bullets you actually intend to use to make sure they will feed 100%

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Whitworth

Amen to that--another on and on--same old same old! Ever read the gun magazines? How many articles on this vs that--revolver vs auto--30/06 vs what have you and so on and so on and so on!

Not me this time---I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!

Refer back to my "Gunshop" story please, earlier somewhere in the book I have written in this thread!

I like these little smiley things!
Kids with new toys!
Michael

You forgot to add FN Vs RN solids to that list......

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
465

I don't have a flat nose bullet in my inventory that I shoot in any caliber, that would even come close to a conventional bullet loaded backwards! So that is no test at all! Sorry that one does not wash. All you are testing is to see if a conventional bullet loaded backwards will feed, nothing more.
Michael

Michael,

That is exactly what gumboat was saying. I have no idea what are talking about. My +2 was one for each of the ideas presented in the above.

465H&H

michael458,
Good point.

We all know exactly that a straight cylinder nose profile is not a truncated-cone FN nose profile.

The reversed bullet with straight cylinder nose differs more from the FN than the FN differs from the RN in nose profile, and feeding.

And still, the best penetrator will be the truncated-cone FN.

quote:

And still, the best penetrator will be the truncated-cone FN.

The best penetrator will be a cylinder with a non-truncated cone for a nose...

Would not the pointy-cone nose make it act like a RoundNose solid, only worse, tumbling sooner in game or good test medium?

It would be hard to make a cylinder with a pointy-cone nose stay nose first, whether dropping it on your toe from waist height, or firing it with a fast twist into a game animal, WBT, wet print, or IWBB, what?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Would not the pointy-cone nose make it act like a RoundNose solid, only worse, tumbling sooner in game or good test medium?

It would be hard to make a cylinder with a pointy-cone nose stay nose first, whether dropping it on your toe from waist height, or firing it with a fast twist into a game animal, WBT, wet print, or IWBB, what?

Would you like to try some RIP..??