The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Sept 08 G&A Mag Punch or Penetration? by BoddingtonGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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This thread has been great entertainment with pertnant information hyjacked and taking the back seat, you gotta love it, this is rare form for AR. It's great when alpha males express their emotions every once in awhile, there's hope for me.   "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Amongst all the hyper technical talk, may i please pose a question? How do FN solids feed in bolt guns in comparison to the RN? Do they feed well without any modifications or fine tuning? Thanks | |||
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That depends on your rifle. That is the only issue in my opinion to running flat-nosed bullets. Typically you will have to work on the feeding. One of my big rifles feeds 'em well, the other doesn't, but that will be fixed....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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michael458, Good work. You have simply proved once again that FN solids are better than roundnose solids. This fact hurts the feelings of roundnose users. However the aggrieved parties' best retort is to merely admit that "FN's are better but there is nothing wrong with roundnose solids." This is an oxymoron. A logical fallacy. The irrationality seems to come from those who know that their slow-TWIST, weak-barreled doubles need the stubby, lead-filled, roundnosed bullets, whether soft or solid. Even with those, the double is second rate in terminal ballistics to a bolt action. Its only advantage is a faster second shot, with a slower third, fourth, fifth. Another dubious distinction.  | |||
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Full FN bullets can cause severe feeding problems, esp in factory rifles. That is why you will never see a full FN design in factory ammo. Nosler, Hornady and others are using a modified FN design to keep feeding issues down to a minimum in factory rifles. A very well known and respected high end custom big bore rifle builder told me recently that he can build bolt rifle that will feed full FN design bullets. But he warns his customers that the rifle may not feed RN bullets at all. The only problem with this is, what if you get to Africa and your handloaded ammo doesn't make it? It is very unlikely that you will find any full FN ammo to feed it but RN ammo might be available esp for a Lott or 458 Win. Then you end up with a very expensive single shot dangerous game rifle. It seems to me that full FN bullets are a better bet for double rifles where feeding isn't an issue. My 470 Searcy shoots 500 grain full FN bullets just fine. If my ammo gets lost, I can probably find some RN local ammo to fill in the gap. 465H&H | |||
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Oh geez! Most bolt action rifles that feed FN bullets well will also feed roundnose bullets!!! Prechtl does a very nice job. Get a new gunsmith? The slower twists of the old doubles are not ideal except with stubby bullets. Monometals that stubby may not regulate. Best to stick with antique bullets in antique doubles. You pay for that fast second shot with inferior terminal ballistics. | |||
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If a rifle has been massaged to feed flat-nosed bullets, I cannot imagine that it wouldn't feed round-nosed bullets. This defies logic to me, but what the hell do I know........  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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The only factory rifle that I know that feeds the FN's well is the coned breached Win. mod. 70's. You could always make your first shot an FN then fill the mag with RN's. Dirk "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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RIP and Whitworth If you guys read carefully, the fellas that are the biggest proponets of Flat Nosed Mono Metal Solids, are double rifle users. Mostly with Vintage doubles. 500GRAINS, JPK, 465H&H and myself all prefer Flat Nosed solids. We just have not had the RN solids we have shot change direction and come out the side of the animals we have shot.  In simple words our ACTUAL results on live animals do not reflect the results of michaels 458's tests. So his media is flawed, and cannot be compared to results on actual animals. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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RIP, Read the friggin' posts. 450NE No2 and I have actually killed many elephants with both round nose and flat nose solids. 465H&H, many, but with round nose solids. We are all fans of the flat nose solids. But we also have enough real experience with real dangerous game to know that flat nose solids are but one choice for excellent and reliable performance. How 'bout you? Ever tried the flat noses in real dangerous game? Or the supposedly inferior round noses? Ever measure real penetration of either in real game? Every sought to see if there was deviation from straight penetration in real game? Test that predict poor performance or deviation from straight line penetration for round nose steel jacketed solids DO NOT reflect real performance in real game. Since the test do not reflect real performance, and actally contradict real results, they are more than flawed, they are wothless. Real performance in real game is the only result that matters. And flat noses ARE NOT BETTER than round noses for some uses. They are NOT a good buff solid, imo. How do I know round noses are better for buff? I tried both. How 'bout you? Yes, flat nose bullets provide greater penetration in elephants and buff, I KNOW this because I've repeatedly tried both round nose and flat nose in both. And that is the only way to determine this fact. Becuase I've used both on real dangerous game, I also KNOW that round noses work just fine and are actually preferable in some circumstances. So far as double rifles, jeez, what bunk. I would rather fire 100 NF or GS Custom bullets in my rifle than 5 Woodleigh or Hornaday steel jacted solid. Moreover, the driving band solids are shorter in the appropriate weight (for my rifle), stabilize better and are more accurate. So far as your other comments regarding doubles, well, your very limited experience is speaking. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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There is a part of the breach that is not coned and that is where the claw fits.My CZ seems to only jam bullets against this flat part. | |||
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Dirklawyer, Don't you realize that you are giving bad advice. Hell, if your forced to use RN solids as a back up you are putting your life in danger!  If you beliove some of the so called experts on here. Esp. the ones that have never been to Africa.465H&H | |||
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My CZ 458WM did not feed at all.I sent it to a gunsmith to get it fixed and a year later, when I got it back,feeds only the TBBC bullets and not the A-frames or TSX.I called the smith and he told me to play with seating depth and I did but that still didn't solve the problem.He said he didn't understand why it fed the RN and not the pointed nose bullets.I guess balance plays a role also. | |||
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And this has what to do with making a rifle feed flat-nosed bullets?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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dirklawyer Thank you, it has been great entertainment! Scott450 99% of my experience with FN bullets in bolt guns is with Winchester M70s and I have no issues with most any sort of FN that I have tried. If I try and shoot some of the big meplat cast bullets I start to run into issues and problems. I have a Ruger in 510 Wells and it certianly has issues, will not feed and function with the Barnes 570 gr FN. I had the meplat taken down to 26 caliber or so and it feeds fine. But I really think I lost too much of my FN with that. It does not matter anyway to me, as I will not take that beast to the field anyway--too big, too heavy, too long and so forth! I have no experience with other bolt guns and FN. I don't use anything but Winchesters anyway. Not a slight on anything else, that's just me! Whitworth 100% correct--depends on rifle and the type bullet you are trying to feed-some will--some won't-some will need work. RIP Good to see you back. Thank you. I am a bolt man, love lever guns too, also have a passion for good single shots. I think the doubles are fantastic, beautiful pieces of work and art, but just don't care for them that much. I don't see where if a rifle feeds FN bullets that it won't feed RN as 465 says. I don't understand why that would be. Dirk My findings exactly, have several Win M70s 416s 458s and 458 Lotts and never had any sort of issues with feeding the Flat nose bullets. I have not tried any in the 470 Capsticks as I am a bit off on them for the last 6 years or so! None of my B&M series WSMs give any issues with FN bullets either. WIN M70! Whitworth Agreed! I think I am caught up now! Thanks Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Whitworth, My reference was a tongue in cheek reference to those who think RN steel jacketd solids endanger their user not to feeding problems. 465H&H | |||
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JPK, No need for you to be such a pompous ass about it.  I am just a humble little hillbilly doctor who loves hunting, guns, and just shooting anything, in that order for the past 45 years since I was age 8. I have blown 20K on one Botswana buffalo and plains game safari and have shot 4 other bovines bigger than cape buffalo, and hunted 30 days a year in Alaska for 5 years, and any other time I could in the lower 48. I am a squirrel hunter from way back, and you are starting to look like a squirrel. If you will pay my way (including opportunity costs of missed work, and pay a replacement to do my job while I am gone) I will show you how to kill elephant, all you want. That would be the best vacation I ever had!!!  I will also explain all the internal, external and terminal ballistics you want to know about, and I am sure I can straighten you out on double rifle versus bolt action and a few other things, such as elephant autopsy (that's necropsy to some here).  BTW, I never used a single roundnose solid on any game, only FN solids or premium soft points, and the occasional non-premium soft on moose. Yep, sure proud to say I have never used, and never will use, a roundnose solid on any game animal. I have more respect for the game than that. | |||
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Amen to that JPK, everytime I shoot a steel jacketed bullet I know my rifling is taking a beating. Only shoot them if I have to. Dirk "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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 "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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RIP One buff, though you don't actually say so. No round nose solids. Only one head of game that deserves a solid. Thanks for confirming your utter lack of experience. The know it all who needs to tell you all about it but has never done it. And I'm the pompus ass? JPK BTW, the words autopsy and necropsy do not appear in my post. A little reading comprehension problem, eh? Also, on the $'s, don't demean yourself begging. Just shut up and go do it. I'm sure your lot as a small town doctor beats many others who have done it. I know more than one. Stop screwing around with big bore rifles you use for nothing of significance and go use any one of them for what it is supposed to be used for. Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, I do not need to measure my fun by bag size ... is this something Freudian you have going on? | |||
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How do you know that..?? | |||
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Bag size ... elephantiasis ... scrotum in wheel barrow ... reminds me of "The Town Hernia" whom I once met ...  | |||
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It's common knowledge that steel jacketed solids compared to other outer jacket material are the worst when it comes to barrel life. Diamond jacketed bullets would be worse though.  "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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There's a lot of common knowledge here at AR...  | |||
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RIP I have used both round nose solids and flat nose solids on cape buffalo as second shots. I have no doubt the flat nose bullets hit much harder up front than the round nose solids. Of 8 cape buffalo that I have shot with the flat nose solids there is a very noticeable reaction when hit with the FN as opposed to the RN. A few have even dropped stone cold when the FN solid hits, which gave me pause to notice, as buff don't do that too much. Not all, as no two buff are the same. Penetration of both rn and fn is moot, they both get to where they need to on cape buffalo. But there is no doubt every buff I have hit with the Flat Nose Barnes Solids are hit harder and react more to the bullet than any I have hit with round nose. It takes a hell of a whack for a buffalo to notice anything. It is very hard to impress cape buffalo, they have never read the gun magazines and have no idea what muzzle energy is, or knock out values, or knock down power! I know what we should do--drop some propaganda for the buffs to read, once they learn about muzzle energy they might just fall over at the sight of a rifle? Thoughts to ponder! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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michael458, The one cape buffalo I shot with a GSC .416-cal/380-grain FN solid at 50 yards: It bucked like a rodeo bull, went straight up in the air, even with his onside shoulder broken through the humerus, the heart and lungs perforated, and the offside chest wall ventilated. He spun 90 degrees away from me as he landed, ran 50 yards and died, with a death bellow. Luckily the several other bulls with him scattered away from us too. It was too easy. My pocketbook just would not allow more cape buffalo.  And BTW, Bip and I got four more good shots at the IWBB today, will get them on the "Waterboarding" thread later. Two softs and two solids, real eye-opener this time.  | |||
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No not really. There is member here who's tag line is, "MOST OF LIFE IS JUST SHOWING UP." I'm in his camp philosophy wise, you're, uh, well,... just not. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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My experience is quite opposite. Buff appear harder hit with the round noses, and don't need the penetration of the flat noses. More energy is expended within the buff with the round noses, I think. They will both exit... Buff drop to the shot with regularity with any solid, just requires a high shoulder shot which breakes the spine. Need to be close to garunty that placement, at least with open sights. With elephants, there is no noticable difference in impact effect between my round nose steel jacketed Woodleighs and my copper NF fn that I have been able to discern. And thanks for finaly telling us all that round noses work just fine at least on buff. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Damn straight! You finally got something right. I am camping on higher ground than your camp. | |||
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JPK...please!! All taunts and BS aside..RIP is the ONLY guy posting on AR who does testing two or three times a month on his own dime. He posts some pretty comprehensive and valuable information for everyone else to ponder. I don't see you or anyone else coming anywhere close to contributing at that level. Despite what you may believe, rifles were not invented for the sole purpose of dispatching Elephant. The vast majority of people who read or post on AR likely have no interest in Elephant hunting and even fewer would piss away ANY significant money for the opportunity to do so. Consider the fact that your vaunted African Experience has very little utility in the mind of your average reloader/shooter. | |||
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Buff, bear, moose, elk. All safly and expitiously dispatched by at most medium bores from 338 to 375. That leaves the bige bores for elephants. But for elephants, the modern bige bore would not exist. Elephants are why they were created and why they exist. Even elephant can be efficiently killed with medium bores like the 9.3x62 and 375H&H, though for hunting in the thick stuff they leave much to be desired. That leaves big bores for elephants, and nothing wrong with using them on buff or other game either, but elephants is why they exist. All this discussion of performance, velocity, recoil, all of these tests in different medium, round noses, flat noses truncated cones, ogive shape,... are pointless unless the rifle are to be used for what they were created for. If they are not ultimately to be used for the purpose for which they were created, you all are just playing and wasting a huge amount of time and money. More than enough to go do the real thing. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Macifej In the context of this thread it does in fact belong to elephant/buffalo/hippo. However that is by no stretch all that big bores were designed for, and test work is absolutely essential. RIP please continue your work as it is valid and interesting to learn what bullets do in different medium. I don't think Harold Johnson ever saw an elephant except in photos, I am not sure of that, but I am quite sure the 50 Alaskan that Harold worked with in the 50's was for brown bear and moose. Of course brown bear can be taken with many other things, but when needing to "Stop" a brown bear, or lion and leopard for that matter nothing, repeat nothing beats a big bore rifle! As for test work maybe we refer to the old days when Jack Carter and Finn where testing the Trophy Bonded bullets. They tested, then took them to the field-very proper proceedure! Does anyone in their right mind think that Barnes, Hornady, Speer, Swift, Woodleigh, or any manufacturer does not test a bullet before going to the field or releasing it to the public? I think not! Both large and small, company and individual has a responsibility to at least know what they are taking to the field, either by others work, or their own. I am a shooter! I am not a hunter! The folks I hunt with are the hunters! It is my responsibility to do the shooting! I have been a shooter all my life, far longer than I have been a hunter. When I started going to the field many years ago I was astounded by the hunters I met. When questioned about what bullet they were using most had to look at the box that they bought from Wally WOrld to tell me! They did not have a clue, had no idea of how to match bullet to game for intended use or purpose! I was amazed at the ignorance some had in this arena. Now don't get me wrong, we are all "ignorant" just about different things! So "ignorant" is not meant as derogatory in the sense that I say it! Lord knows I am ignorant about many things! For all those doing test work on anything, solids, softs, loads, bullets of separate nature, powders, brass any sort of test work I commend your efforts and please continue! Regardless of anything we shoot today, every cartridge, bullet, rifle, everything--at some point someone did the test work for us--exactly as we are doing now! Please Continue and thank you for your efforts! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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IMO, testing can provide us with some useful information. It appears that the media in current use can provide some info on expected penetration depths by mono-metal solids at least in soft tissue. To me, it still appears somewhat questionable in elephant heads. It is also apparent that these media are not very good predictors of straight line penetration. What this means to me is we need to keep searching for a media that will imitate straight line penetration in elephants and buffalo. I hope you bullet testers will keep experimenting with different media composition as well as bullet types. The final test of any media is how well it mimics performance in animals. 465H&H | |||
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Sounds like i will be sticking to RN solids in my bolt action 458 Lott. I have shot my fair share of Elephant and buffalo with RN's and they all died in the manner that i expected. It is great that research is ongoing and that the debate is lively and challenging - that is where new developments come from. But for now, for me and my rifle i will be sticking to the standard RN's. Thanks for the feedback. | |||
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If you just WANTS inferior performance - then by all means use RN solids.. I am not saying they wont work allright, just that the FN`s are a lot better penetrators on heavy game. | |||
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I cannot remember anyone that has reported that modern RN Solids are not adequate for elephant and buff. Taylor reported that the 470 Nitro bullets he used were sharper pointed than most other Solids of the day and did do some fishtailing. I think the 535gr Jeffery bullets sometimes did that as well. However most bullets now follow pretty much the same profile within their brand of course. Also I do not know if anyone that has used both RN Solids and Flat Nosed Solids that has not reported deeper penetration with the Flat nosed bullets. However feeding reliability is THE MOST important thing for a Bolt rifle shooter. If I was testing FN bullets in my bolt gun and they were ANY problems, I would use RN Solids without any worries. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Agree. But I would get the the feeding adjusted by a good gunsmith. Most rifles can be made to feed them 100% by a good smith. | |||
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Buffalo Throughout the entire thread from most all sources we have heard that FN penetrates deeper, straight line penetration either in medium, or animal flesh and bone. The arguement has been that my medium does not reflect "real experience" in "real animals". However, all the evidence mine and others indicate that FN solids penetrate well regardless of medium. The arguement is that RN penetrates fine in animal flesh and bone, but not in medium of any sort. OK, I have read others posts that say "some" round nose bullets tumble, or start to veer off course near the end of penetration, or some comments similar to that. But that the round nose always gets the job done regardless of less than perfect performance. For me, I will stay with the Flat Nose solids, that appear to give superior performance in both animal flesh and any sort of medium. I don't see a down side to that. They all feed in my Winchesters so I don't have that issue to be concerned with. The one rifle I have that will not feed them is a Ruger in 510 Wells--It weighs 11 lbs and seems to be longer than I am tall-I will never take it to the field as it is too heavy, too long! So I don't care if it feeds or not! To each his own I think! One can only do so much? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Sept 08 G&A Mag Punch or Penetration? by Boddington
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