I am going to order a Dakota 76 Safari and am trying to decide between a .404 Jeffery and .400 H&H. I currently have a .375 H&H Safari I really like and want a similar rifle in a bigger caliber for an upcoming elephant hunt. I've handled a Dakota in .416 Rigby and it is a lot heavier and larger. I also considered the .458 Lott but am concerned about the level of recoil. Any thoughts or opinions?

404 Jeffery.

Great, well entrenched caliber, good resale if you don't like it, slick feeding, easy to load for, and plenty of nice bullets out there.

There will be greater recoil with the Lott. So if recoil is an issue, I'd stay away from that. I have a fairly light 404 that happens to kick the snot out of me, but a typical Dakota 76 will weigh more and be easier to shoot.

Hidalgo, welcome to AR! IMHO, go with the 404 Jeffery. Not only is it a classic cartridge, but in modern rifles it is the equivalent (velocity-wise) of the 416 Remington and Rigby. The 400 H&H was a fine concept, but doesn't appear to have been very well accepted. Future availability of brass, dies, etc could be a problem.

I agree with the two above posters on all they have said.

I happen to have a Dakota Safari in both the 404J and 458Lott. Both rifles weigh exactly 8.5 lbs. I love them both. I had them both built by Dakota to my specs. The 458L definitely has more recoil than the 404. My loads for both rifles have velocities of 2300 fps, the Jeffery shooting 400 gr and the Lott 500 gr.

I took the 404 to Zambia for the last two years and took two Buffalo. I like it better than the 458L. Having said that, the 458L's effect on Buffalo I have shot, has been the most impressive of the three calibers I have used on them: 375H&H, 404J, and 458L.

Again, as the previous poster stated, your resale of a 404j vs. a 400 H&H, will be much better. And ammo is much more available for the 404J, not only in the US, but in Africa as well. Always something to consider when hunting Africa.

Last year I took a 35 Whelen to Africa which is difficult if not impossible to find over there, but I took a three rifle battery, having a 7mmRM to back it up on one side and my 404J on the other. But if your heart desires the 400 H&H, buy what you want. If you take it to Africa, just have a back up rifle in case your ammo disappears!

404J, especially if you are not a reloader.

surefire7, is the action for your .404J and .458L the same size? What is the magazine capacity of the .404? Sounds like you have pretty close to what I'm looking for, a Safari at 8.5#s. Do you find that the .404 fits well in that size action? Thanks for your input.

one more for the 404

if you ever might want to sell it, 404 --- if you ever want to load it fairly warm, say, over 2200 fps, 404 ... if you really want a unique round, well, there's the 400 -- though a 416 rem is a better choice all around

404 Jeffery without any doubt...8 1/2 lbs. for the bare rifle is about perfect...I had mine build on a Granite Mountain Arms standard mag. action...2400 fps with 380 grain North Forks work well on Buffalo (softs) and Elephant (flat nose solids)....

The Lott is a great round for Buffalo and Elephant the 404 Jeffery a little more flexibility and less recoil...both are great rounds..

Hidalgo,

Yes, the actions of the 404 and the 458 are the same. They are both Safaris, not Classic or African.

By the way, I agree with you about the 416 Rigby on the African action. It is just large enough and the grip also, to be too large for my small hands. I own 11 Dakotas and they are all Classics or Safaris, with the one exception, my African 416 Rigby. The Rigby is for sale for this very reason!

The magazine capacity of the Safari in 404J is only (3) vs. the (4) one gets with the African model. To me, that is a fair trade off for the reduced size and weight of the Safari vs. the African. I have a friend who has hunted three times with me in Africa, and for him, the African is perfect. He has larger hands. Still, I also like the 8.5 lbs. of the Safari vs. the 9.5 lbs. of the African.

Yes, the 404J fits very nicely in the Safari, no problem at all. Dakota told me either the Safari or African was fine for a 404J, and they could even put it into a Classic, but didn't recommend it.

Do this! Get yourself a Safari 404 Jeffery. You'll not regret it.

Good hunting to you.

p.s. I like all of the options on the African, so I just had Dakota add them to my Safari: double cross bolts, 1/4 rib, banded hooded front sight, etc. I did have them install an optic fiber front sight instead of the flip up white night sight. At 65, the fiber optic really helps!

You might also take a look at the Heym Martini Express in 404.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...951012771#8951012771

https://www.facebook.com/HEYMU...93/1159004047461304/

surefire7, I also prefer the Safari over the African. The .400 H&H I assume will hold 4 down just like a .375. I will be reloading for either but it does seem there are more components available for the .404.

There is the .416 Remington but I had some issues with it years ago with Remington factory ammo, I'm sure it is fixed by now.

I shoot the 400H&H.
It will push a 400gr bullet at 2400fps for the mythical 5000ft# of energy. It falls between the 416Rem and Rigby in the pressure world. There are more than enough re-loading components out there to keep you satisfied, you can also find custom ammo loaders that can supply you with what you want.
Are there more practical cartridges out there, sure but since when are gun nuts practical.
If you have any questions pitch me a PM

Ammo availbiltiy in the future, as well as in remote hunting camps, is always a consideration as well.

quote:

Originally posted by hidalgo:
surefire7, I also prefer the Safari over the African. The .400 H&H I assume will hold 4 down just like a .375.

To me that is a very big difference. I have a .400 H&H built on a standard commercial Mauser action. If it were not for the barrel diameter you would think it was a .375 H&H.

People say the .404 is the rimless equivalent of the .450/400 NE but I disagree. The .404 is a .43 caliber. On the other hand, the .400 H&H is very much a rimless version of the .450/400. A .450/400 double shoots a cartridge a good step above the .375 and 9.3 but can be built lighter and handier than a double in the larger calibers. I would think of a bolt rifle in .400 H&H in those terms.

The African will be a bigger and bulkier rifle, especially where you handle it. A .404 hardly seems worth the extra weight and bulk. If I were going to have a rifle built on a full size magnum action I would choose a cartridge that was .450 or larger.

for comparison purposes: my 404 J was built by a gunsmith member here on a VZ-24.

It has a barrel band ramp front and island rear express sights, a 24" barrel,and a Leupold 1.75-6X and weighs nine pounds twelve ounces, loaded.

Idaho, has the magazine been deepened and how many cartridges fit in the magazine?

No doubt here, .400 H&oh if you're looking for the best performance. It's like comparing the .375 H&H to a .358 Win. Both are very effective at short ranges, but the.400 has a huge advantage for longer shots.

If you want a quality 400 gr. bullet going 2200 fps in a relatively light rifle that's easy to shoot = 404 Jeffery for all of the reasons already noted.

If you want a quality 400 gr. bullet going 2450 fps in a relatively light rifle that's not uncomfortable to shoot = 404 Jeffery for all of the reasons already noted.

If you want something bigger - go with a 450 or 458 in a heavier rifle.

We can do math all day long, but since 1907ish, the 404 has been doing the deed with aplomb. With modern powders and bullets, the 404's already well earned reputation for utility is solidified even further.

The experienced PH I recently hunted with asked me what in the hell kind of ammo I was shooting due to the absolute crushing violence and reactions of the animals. 375 gr. CEB Raptors at 2400 fps. Dead made easy.

I've been so happy with my current 404 safari rifle, that Lon Paul is wrapping up a nearly identically spec'd all weather version for the rest of the world.

Grenadier
You lost me, but than again I've been in the sun all day. The 450/400 pushes a .410 dia 400gr bullet at 2150fps. A 400H&H pushes a .411 dia 400gr bullet at 2400fps. Other than bullet dia the 400 is in a much different class.
tygersman gives some sound advice, if you can push the 404J from a modern action to 2400fps you have a big range to choose from.

Zephry, in general, rimless versions of cartridges operate at higher pressures and generate more velocity than their rimmed/flanged counterparts. The .450/400 shoots a .410/.411 bullet as does the .400 H&H. In fact, you can often use the same bullets in both. I have a quantity of factory .400 H&H loads and the bullets in those mic out at .410". They work great even though my rifle has a .411 bore. The .400 H&H is more of a counterpart to the .450/400 than the .423 caliber .404 will ever be.

Now regarding velocity, the .400 H&H is a bit faster than the .404. The .404 can be loaded hotter than factory specs and match .400 H&H velocities, as if that was a good thing. Nevertheless, any differences in velocity and downrange performance are inconsequential.

The main advantage the .400 H&H has over the .404 is that it is a better fit in a rifle with a standard magnum action. The OP alludes to that when he says he is comparing a .400 H&H Dakota Safari with what must be a bigger and heavier Dakota rifle.

The following text, which appeared some time ago on this forum, sits framed on my desk.

If there was ever a reason to romance a caliber or a rifle this would be it.

Jeffery 404

With acknowledgement to Rege Podraza ( Where Elephants go to die )

It rested between the ivory
That hung on grandpa's wall
It's finish checked and yellowed
Like the tusks it helped to fall

It's barrel smooth and polished
From a hundred bearers hands
It reflected the light warmly
Like campfires flickering bands

The stock of English walnut was
Chewed and clawed a bit
It still showed a trace of checkering
And a dent where a horn had hit

Stamped on the barrel lightly
Was a name and not much more
A single word "Jeffery"
"Jeffery 404"

If that rifle could only talk
And take us back again
With grandpa in Africa
A time of buffalo, elephant and men


But that day has set it's sun
And the rifle speaks no more
Oh, what I'd give for one last time
To hear that baby roar

Grandpa's Jeffery
His Jeffery 404

My thanks to the person who wrote that, and to the gentleman who posted it for us...

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

The main advantage the .400 H&H has over the .404 is that it is a better fit in a rifle with a standard magnum action. The OP alludes to that when he says he is comparing a .400 H&H Dakota Safari with what must be a bigger and heavier Dakota rifle.

I'll have to quantum leap back 100 years and inform the various African Game departments that the 404 is difficult to fit in a standard magnum action. Are you thinking of the Rigby?

I'm no expert on the 400 H&H, but isn't its case based on a 375 H&H? I could be wrong, but I'd struggle believing that the overall case length of a 400 H&H is less than a 375 H&H. I don't have a 375 to compare to my 404 case, but how much shorter is the 375 H&H case than a 404 case? I can't imagine much if any?

It's not a matter of length it's a matter of girth. Yes, you can fit a .404 in a standard action but it isn't as good a fit as a .375 H&H or a .400 H&H because of the greater girth.

Jeffrey used large actions for building their .404 rifles. They had a "Flush magazine, holding five cartridges and admitting the bolt being closed on one cartridge in the barrel". They said, "The action is specially made and designed for this cartridge, and not a Military Action adapted for the cartridge". That was important because the "adapted" military action was not as big as was needed for a proper rifle in the .404 Jeffrey caliber. The original rifles had 24" barrels and weighed 9 pounds unloaded.

I am not criticizing the .404 cartridge. I am only saying that .404 rifles are best built on appropriately sized actions.

Once again, I'm no gunsmith. But I've written a few checks to good ones, and will happily be continue to support the professionals. Maybe one of our regular gunsmiths will chime in and set me straight.

I don't know that I'd feel particulately comfortable hunting dangerous game with a rifle from a gunsmith who said he couldn't fit a 404 into a standard action, but instead he could easily do it for a 375 or 400 h&h.
Nor would I expect him to say he was taking more metal out of a standard action for a 404 than a 375 (also presumably 400 H&H).

Are you talking about feeding from the box? If so, I understand that has to do with boxes of proper dimensions, not action size. If there were a bunch of standard 404 sized boxes floating around, it would be no different than feeding from a 375 out of a box previously constructed for a 375 .... For example, take a look at a 300 RUM box on a M70. No issues feeding the 404 - dimensions are fine for the parent case (404).

Any good gunsmith can "fit" a .404 in a standard action and they have done so with cartridges larger than that. But that action is not the best choice for the .404 by far and it requires a good deal more than just lengthening the magazine.

For what ever it is worth, my 400H&H started life as a new fn win mod 70 in 375H&H. Threaded on a .411 dia barrel and did a little work to the mag box to hold 4 down and started shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Any good gunsmith can "fit" a .404 in a standard action and they have done so with cartridges larger than that. But that action is not the best choice for the .404 by far.

If the only argument is that the 404 takes some work to fit in a standard Mauser action, I agree.

But it would take about the same amount of work as to fit the 375 and 400 H&H into a standard Mauser action.

The 400 H&H is not a better nor worse fit in a standard Mauser action than a 404. Whether or not you could squeeze one more round of 400 H&H in a flush magazine might be something someone else could answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
For what ever it is worth, my 400H&H started life as a new fn win mod 70 in 375H&H. Threaded on a .411 dia barrel and did a little work to the mag box to hold 4 down and started shooting.

So, 4 in the magazine and one in the chamber; or 3 down and one in the chamber?

A M70 404 on the same size action/flush magazine will fit 3 down and one in the chamber.

To me it's an issue of magazine capacity, in the Safari the magazine holds 4 .400 H&Hs versus 3 .404s. That may not be significant but I'm looking for a rifle that is close to my .375 as possible with a larger/heavier bullet.

Good points about ammunition and component availability but I think I can just lay in a couple of hundred cases for hunting and make cases from .375s for practice. I'm going to look at rifles chambered for both this weekend and will then place the order.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Gentlemen, the OP's question was with regard to purchasing a Dakota 76 rifle that will have the same general characteristics as his Dakota 76 in .375 H&H. Dakota makes five sizes of actions. Yes, five, and all in left and right hand versions. The most appropriately sized action for them to use building a rifle in .404 will not be the same as the action they used for his .375 H&H. But, they can build a .400 H&H on the same action as his and the size and bulk of the action and stock will be very similar to his .375.

A .404 can be built on the Safari action but the larger action they use for the African is more appropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Gentlemen, the OP's question was with regard to purchasing a Dakota 76 rifle that will have the same general characteristics as his Dakota 76 in .375 H&H. Dakota makes five sizes of actions. Yes, five, and all in left and right hand versions. The appropriately sized action for them to use building a rifle in .404 will not be the same as the action they used for his .375 H&H. But, they can build a .400 H&H on the same action as his and the size and bulk of the action and stock will be very similar to his .375.

A .404 can be built on the Safari action but the larger action they would use for the African is more appropriate.

I'd like an explanation as to how fitting a 404 Jeffery to a standard Mauser action is more difficult than fitting a 400 H&H to a Standard Mauser action.

OP should buy whatever makes him most comfortable. And Dakota has historically made a nice rifle. But appropriateness and marketing are not the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Any good gunsmith can "fit" a .404 in a standard action and they have done so with cartridges larger than that. But that action is not the best choice for the .404 by far.

If the only argument is that the 404 takes some work to fit in a standard Mauser action, I agree.

But it would take about the same amount of work as to fit the 375 and 400 H&H into a standard Mauser action.

The 400 H&H is not a better nor worse fit in a standard Mauser action than a 404. Whether or not you could squeeze one more round of 400 H&H in a flush magazine might be something someone else could answer.

The number of rounds that fit in the magazine is part of the "fit".

There are many standard actions that are set up for .375 right from the factory. Those only require barreling to .400 H&H or rebarelling to convert to .400 H&H. But to convert those actions to .404 also requires, as a minimum, opening the bolt face and extractor and rail work. Then the bottom metal must be changed to a drop magazine or you lose magazine capacity by one round.

The OP already has a Dakota 76 Safari and stated he wants another one.

.404 J...for the simple reason that's it's been around a hundred years and will still be around as long as that sort of game shooting exists.

Whereas...the useless .244 H & H, the useful .275 H & H and the lovely, niche, .240 H & H are either moribund, near unobtainable or just plain hard to get except from Holland and Holland themselves.

The .404 J...despite its vintage will "future proof" your new rifle. The .400 H & H is an not a bet I'd care to make...

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Any good gunsmith can "fit" a .404 in a standard action and they have done so with cartridges larger than that. But that action is not the best choice for the .404 by far.

If the only argument is that the 404 takes some work to fit in a standard Mauser action, I agree.

But it would take about the same amount of work as to fit the 375 and 400 H&H into a standard Mauser action.

The 400 H&H is not a better nor worse fit in a standard Mauser action than a 404. Whether or not you could squeeze one more round of 400 H&H in a flush magazine might be something someone else could answer.

The number of rounds that fit in the magazine is part of the "fit".

There are many standard actions that are set up for .375 right from the factory. Those only require barreling to .400 H&H or rebarelling to convert to .400 H&H. But to convert those actions to .404 also requires, as a minimum, opening the bolt face and extractor and rail work. Then the bottom metal must be changed to a drop magazine or you lose magazine capacity by one round.

The OP already has a Dakota 76 Safari and stated he wants another one.

Ok, then you are not talking about the appropriateness of fit, but instead converting an existing 375 H&H Mauser action to a 400 H&H action. Agree that's got to be way easier than converting it to a 404 Jeffery.

But that's different than saying what you originally posted or suggesting that the 400 H&H is somehow dimensionally more appropriate for a standard Mauser action. I'm not aware of a nickel's difference between fitting a 404 on a standard Mauser action and doing so with a 375 or 404 H&H.

If there is, I'd honestly like to know it.

I presume you're not suggesting that just because a bolt action hunting rifle holds 4 rounds instead of 5 that rifle action is inappropriate for the caliber. If so, a lot of other dangerous game hunters on this forum are going to be as surprised as I am to hear we're under gunned.

What the OP likes is what the OP likes, and I'm all for him getting exactly the set-up he prefers. If that's a 400 H&H Dakota Safari model, then I think that's pretty damn cool and am looking forward to seeing some pics!

if I read this correctly, it is easier to fit four belted rounds into a magazine than to use a non-belted case...?

And, opening a bolt to Jefferys diameter is more difficult than to magnum size...?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the H&H on a 416 Rigby case?

Rich

tygersman,

The entire thread was about what Dakota the OP wanted.

Yes, a military action can be converted to .404 Jeffrey. I did not say it could not.

I said that that action was not the best and most appropriate action for that cartridge. A poster above said he had a .404 built on a VZ-24 action. I am sure it is a nice rifle. But I would have either picked a different cartridge for that rifle or I would have picked a different action to build a .404 on.

I do not think a standard Mauser action is the best action to build a .404 rifle on. I think the cartridge is better suited to larger actions. I think the only GOOD reason to build a .404 on a standard Mauser action is because that's the only action one has available to them. But even then, I believe it is ill advised and that another cartridge should be chosen for that action.

The only thing you want to do is argue. I won't argue with you. If you disagree and think the standard Mauser action is a good choice to build a .404 on then so be it.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
if I read this correctly, it is easier to fit four belted rounds into a magazine than to use a non-belted case...?

And, opening a bolt to Jefferys diameter is more difficult than to magnum size...?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the H&H on a 416 Rigby case?

Rich

No, Rich, The 400 H&H is the same case as the .300 H&H and .375 H&H. Rich does your .404 have a dropped magazine with straddle floorplate or is it flush, and how many rounds can you get in your magazine?

Opening a bolt to either is the same work, I suppose. There might be more to opening the rails but if there is I doubt it would amount to enough for a gunsmith to charge any more for.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
tygersman,

The entire thread was about what Dakota the OP wanted.

Yes, a military action can be converted to .404 Jeffrey. I did not say it could not.

I said that that action was not the best and most appropriate action for that cartridge. A poster above said he had a .404 built on a VZ-24 action. I am sure it is a nice rifle. But I would have either picked a different cartridge for that rifle or I would have picked a different action to build a .404 on.

I do not think a standard Mauser action is the best action to build a .404 rifle on. I think the cartridge is better suited to larger actions. I think the only GOOD reason to build a .404 on a standard Mauser action is because that's the only action one has available to them. But even then, I believe it is ill advised and that another cartridge should be chosen for that action.

The only thing you want to do is argue. I won't argue with you. If you disagree and think the standard Mauser action is a good choice to build a .404 on then so be it.

I'm not arguing with you - I'm pointing out that I'm not aware of any legit dimensional basis to distinguish between fitting a 404 Jeffery and a 400 H&H on a standard Mauser action.

So far, you haven't explained to me or anyone else on this thread why you believe there to be a difference. It's really easy to answer my questions: yes or no. Are you aware of any legit dimensional basis to explain as to why a standard mauser action is appropriate for a 400 H&H but not a 404 Jeffery. If so, what is it.

No BS about converting a pre-existing 375 H&H action. No BS about 4 vs 5 rounds in the bolt action rifle. NO BS about unicorns or classified emails or too much hydrogen peroxide in the swimming pool ...

Here's how I see it: The simple fact is that if a standard Mauser action is dimensionally appropriate to fit a 400 H&H, then it's dimensionally appropriate to fit a 404 Jeffery. Conversely, if you don't believe a standard Mauser action is dimensionally appropriate to fit a 404 Jeffery, then as a matter of mathematics and reason, it can't be appropriate to fit a 400 H&H.

Look, Mr. Wiebe or Mr. Kobe or any one of the great gunsmiths on this forum could pop in at any moment and give me a frigging answer and blow my mind. I'll give them props and add some knowledge to my memory bank. But to use your word, I don't think it's "appropriate" for you suggest you possess some specialized knowledge on the topic.