quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Are you aware of any legit dimensional basis to explain as to why a standard mauser action is appropriate for a 400 H&H but not a 404 Jeffery. If so, what is it.

From a strength standpoint a magnum Mauser action is a better choice for .300 H&H, 375 H&H, 400 H&H, and .404. Altering a military action for any of those cartridges requires modifications you would not have to make in the magnum action. The number of rounds the military action can hold for all of those cartridges is limited by a magazine made for holding military cartridges much smaller in diameter. The magazine well must be extended for all of the long rounds. The feed ramp area of the action is cut away accordingly to match up with the front of the extended magazine wall, weakening the action in the area that supports the lower bolt lug. So, again, using a military action for any of those cartridges is not ideal, it requires making concessions in magazine capacity and strength.

See a military action opened for larger cartridges here: http://img.photobucket.com/alb...ionopenedupforhh.jpg

The bolt face and extractor must be opened up for the H&H rounds but opened up more for the .404. The metal in the sides of the action must be removed in opening it up for H&H rounds but more is removed to open it for the .404. Metal supporting the lower lug of the locked bolt must be removed for the H&H rounds as well as for the .404. This is a well known weakening of the action in a critical area that most gunsmiths are willing to accept for the H&H rounds, though a few are dead set against such modifications. Back thrust is determined by pressure times the area of the inside base of the cartridge. The inside base of the .404 is of greater area than that of the H&H rounds. At equal pressures, the .404 will create more back thrust against the weakened action face than will the H&H cartridges.

Modifying a military Mauser action for the 300, 375, or 400 H&H cartridges weakens the action, subjects the weakened action to more bolt thrust than it was designed for, and reduces magazine capacity. Modifying a military Mauser for .404 weakens the action a little more, subjects that weakened action to a little more bolt thrust, and reduces magazine capacity even further. Whatever concessions need to be made in using a military action for the .400 H&H, understand that those concessions are greater when using that action for the .404. You can shell out more money to buy and install different bottom metal to increase cartridge capacity. But does one need a 4 or 5 round repeater or will a 3-peater do? The question becomes one of how much one is willing to concede just to use a military action instead of a true magnum action.

The Dakota actions are a different animal. They make actions designed from the ground up for the longer and larger magnum cartridges. They have a very nice action that is the ideal size for the .300, .375, and .400 H&H cartridges. That action can be used for the .404 but it is not the ideal action for the .404. Instead, Dakota makes a larger action that is.

I have a bunch of Dakotas that I regularly hunt with.

Frankly, I would go with the Jeffery of the choices listed, although I would personally go to a .416 Rem over either a .404 or a .400 H&H. (I also have a 76 in .416 Rigby so personally the point is moot... and while it's a bit bigger and heavier, it's not excessively so for me.)

Dakotas proprietary cartridges are almost all based on a .404 so I have no concerns there, although the smaller action guns do have a limit of 3 in the mag, but frankly for me that has not been an issue. Heck, the .416 Dakota might fit your plans better.

For elephant alone, why not get a .458 win mag? It would also fit the bill.

Nostalgia wise, the .404; for general safari use, a .416 Rem, for elephant duty if you are concerned about recoil, get a .458 win mag or get the Lott and shoot win mag ammo mostly.

Thanks for the research and the thoughtful reply.

As you see, it really is apples to apples when converting a standard Mauser action to 400 H&H and 404 Jeffery. The point of using the standard action is to work to get a svelte easy handling rifle (and historically, a much cheaper action too!). I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but I suspect that the 400 H&H operates at somewhat higher pressure than the 404. So even more of a equalizer when fitting the 404 to the same standard Mauser action.

I agree that both the 404 and 400 H&H would be good on a magnum Mauser action. But if going for a bigger action and rifle, there are other calibers worthy of consideration including the old and newer Rigbys. To me, there certainly is a point when you can have too much on good thing. 400 gr. somewhere between 2200 and 2450 seems to be a pretty sweet spot for me. I also see no need to tote around a bare rifle heavier than 8 lbs for that.

As to the Dakota actions, I don't pretend to know their proprietary specs. But at least they used to be Model 70 clones? I'd be surprised if they were running H&Hs on weaker actions than OEM M70s. I'm happy to report that neither of my current 404 Jeffery rifles - a model 70 Winchester (300 Ultra Mag conversion) and another model 70 Winchester (375 H&H donor action) know that they shouldn't be perfect working rifles. And since I'm not one to start doing my own conversions or playing gunsmith, I 'm pretty sure Dennis Olsen and Lon Paul would have let me know if I was gonna eat a bolt or otherwise by running these set ups.

Aren't most of Dakota's proprietary cartridges based on the 404 Jeffery cartridge? Does Dakota make its own actions?

Since the answer to the above two questions is yes, what are all these explanations about how much work they're going to have to do to "fit" the cartridge into an action coming from somewhere else?

Wink:

All of the "work" discussion arose out of this comment:

"The main advantage the .400 H&H has over the .404 is that it is a better fit in a rifle with a standard magnum action."

I was just asking if that was truly accurate and what that was based on as it seemed to me that there should be no real difference based on the case lengths, etc. My point was that if a standard action is appropriate for a 400 H&H shouldn't it be appropriate for a 404? So, there's no "advantage" in that sense.

tygersman
4 down 1 up, Duane Wiebe worked his magic on my magazine box to let in 4 rounds.
Rich, as mentioned the 400H&H is based on the 375H&H case, their 465H&H is based on the 460 Weatherby.
Dakota chambers their 400 H&H rifles to an OAL using Woodleigh bullets "made for 400H&H velocities" to 3.540, (I spoke with Dakota to get chamber measurements for my 400 project).
375H&H cases are very easy to re-size to 400H&H they come up a bit short but with the 400's long neck it is hard to tell the difference.
Gulf Breeze of Florida pushed real hard for Barnes to come up with commercial loads for the 400H&H but Barnes came up short.
My knowledge of Dakota's is minimal but I have seen 400's in both the 76 and the 97 models.
Though lots of good info is being share, unfortunately this post is getting away from it's original intent as usual

As far as the information I have read is that Jeffery made his 404 rifles, the Model 1905 No.1, No.2 and No 3, variants being the first, on the standard length Mauser as Rigby had the rights for the magnum Mauser action from the Mauser factory sown up and held the price up so the other gunmakers in that era would not buy them. These Jeffery rifles were 3 down 1 up so were seemingly not the magnum action.

I have an opened up standard Oberndorf Mauser in 404 and did wonder just how much strength is compromised but then I take heart from the fact that Harry Selby had a standard length Mauser in 416 Rigby, imagine the opening up that required on the action to fit the big Rigby cartridge, and Rigby themselves re-barreled it for Harry at least once if not a couple of times as he wore them out. Good enough for Harry firing enough rounds to wear out barrels, good enough for me. I just flick my head to the side every time I touch off a round

404 Jeffery should be just fine on a standard Mauser action. I've heard rumors some 500 Jefferys were made on standard Mausers. That would take some work!

Nobody said it can't be done and nobody said it shouldn't. Those are decisions for the gun owner and/or the gunsmith to make.

What was said is that those builds are BEST made using a bigger action, an action manufactured for cartridges that size.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Nobody said it can't be done and nobody said it shouldn't. Those are decisions for the gun owner and/or the gunsmith to make.

What was said is that those builds are BEST made using a bigger action, an action manufactured for cartridges that size.

Agree in some way what you say is true and actually somebody has said it shouldn't be done and that was Mauser, hence the reason they did produce the magnum action and supply to the English market via Rigby. The very reason why many a standard M98 action has been opened up for larger cartridges is that these big actions were hard to get and expensive plus they were heavier and clunkier (longer bolt throw) to use compared with the standard action that makes up a nice light sporter. 3 down and 1 up is any amount for hunting, as unless they are culling, any one that thinks they need more perhaps should do a bit more practice to make better use of what they have instead of relying on more shots after the first four ineffectual ones

Perhaps it would be a good project for Saeed to test the strength of an opened up standard Mauser action? Would be ground breaking research as I don't know that this has ever been done. Sorry I'm not volunteering my Type A 404J for the experiment.

Having owned an original Schuler 12.7 (500 Jeff)

never had any issues with the strength or function of the action-

just the bloody ill designed stock, the light weight and the resultant
arse whipping when firing

I mostly used the 404J in my lifetime and consider it a wonderful round...But from a practical point of view all nostalgia aside the 416 Rem or Ruger is the better choice, Its as good balistically has a bit better SD and better penetration and ammo is widely available..In fact, the .416 Rem or Ruger is the most practical DG rifle I know of...I prefer the 416 Rem myself for a number of reasons. The 400 H&H is on its way out IMP, and would be pretty hard to move if you wanted to get rid of it..its never been popular..It is however the equivalent of the other two balistically, the ones I have seen were purchased by men that wanted something nobody else had..Happens a lot.

Well I went and handled a couple of rifles in both calibers and went with the .400 H&H, I could have been happy with either. It all came down to wanting to stay with the Safari platform ( same as my .375 ) with a 4 round magazine capacity.

Good points were made about ammo and component availability but I plan to lay in good supply that will last me and frankly don't see selling this rifle.

I had a bad experience with a .416 Rem 20 something years ago with Remington factory ammo ( that I'm sure has been corrected ) so that is why I did not go with that round.

I will just say that if anyone is
interested in any Dakota rifle the guys at Gulfbreeze are the ones to see. They have a large inventory and really know the product. They are so good I ended up ordering 2 rifles.

Hands down, the .404J.

A .423 dia, 400gn slug in a chambering that kicks the least of the various ".400" DGR cartridges ... unless you purposely hot-rod it.

Hornady's factory .404J ammo was loaded 200fps faster than the original Kynoch load with the same weight 400gn bullet, and that historic load killed everything from elephants on down the DGR food-chain.

I can't believe some of the BS out there about down loading the 404 Jefferys that has a case almost as big as a .416 Rigby for all practical purposes..

Ive been using 93 grs. of H-4831 and IMR-4831 in my 404s for years, brass lasts forever and I get just a tad over 2400 FPS and Ive loaded up to 95 grs and hunted with that load, but recoil is up there and and it didn't kill any better..

I see other powders quoted by some on this board, and that is there problem imo...Jeffe even told me he couldn't get 95 grs, in his 404, that does not surprise me..at any rate I can and do and have for about 40 years or better.

That makes no frickin' sense, Ray.

Time for more oatmeal.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jeffe even told me he couldn't get 95 grs, in his 404,

prove it ray - show me where we EVER discussed me trying to get 95 grains of ANYTHING in a 404...

EVER - can't be done, we never have

QuickLoad shows 93 grains of H4831 is 112.5% of case capacity of the 404 Jeffery with a 400 grain Woodleigh SN, and 1,329 PSI above MAX pressure for the round.
Quickaload show 93 grains of IMR4831 to be 114.2% of case capacity with a Woodleigh 400 grain SN, and 13,706 PSI above published max pressure for the round.

Seriously UNSAFE!

I had North Fork test my loads on his sufisticated equipment...He got 2525 FPS as I recall with 95 gr. loads and 2400 plus a bit with my 93 gr. load in my 26 inch barrel...pressure were not high as quoted..That said, I don't know how these quoted figures came about on a load that I shot for at least 20 years...unless you thing a good mauser or mod. 70 can't operate at 50 to 60,000 PSI..like a 375, 416 or 458 or whatever..The 404 has more powder capacity than any of these rounds..Thats like say a 416 Rigby has to be shot at 2200 FPS, it just ain't so.

Ray, I don't doubt that you have been using this load for a long time.
Here are some pictures of what I did today.
93 grains of IMR 4831



400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore next to case. Positioned to be seated on top of the powder charge which is well up into the neck of the case.


Even after jiggling the case to setle the charge, I'd say it would be difficult at best to seat to the cannelure!

Away, for what is worth!

Well curiosity didn't kill the cat but I just had to try for myself after seeing Rusty's post above. Like Ray I too have used (exclusively to date) IMR4831 to load my 404J with 400gr RWS FMJ bullets. I use other powders with cast.

Back in the late 70's I settled on 85grs IMR4831 which gave me the same iron sight POI of the factory PH 400gr FMJ and Kynoch 400gr SN ammo I have. I'm getting just over 2100fps MV with this load and it knocked over a few buffalo with no drama,also several red deer and more than a few goats have fallen to the 404. Can't see any reason why I would need more.

Checked it out tonight, 93grs IMR4831 taps more or less to the base of the neck in Kynoch cases and would not be compressed as the 400gr RWS FMJ does not quite reach the shoulder when seated to crimp in the cannelure.
95grs IMR 4831 tapped in would require only 1/8th inch compression if that, I measured with a piece of rod resting on the powder in the neck of the case and then compared alongside a projectile to the cannelure.

Over the years I've used this same powder in 243W, 7mm Mauser, 270W, 7x61S&H and fairly recently tried out in my 7mm-08. In all cases you need to tap this course grained powder into the case and most often some compression needed with top loads but it produces some very good results in many cartridges loaded like this. Very accurate with heavier bullets in the 7mm-08 but not high velocity.

I concur with Ray, 4831 seems to work very well in the 404J and 93-95grs does fit easily enough not that I have bothered loading to this level. My reloads and factory ammo at 2100-2250fps MV do the job.

Eagle27,
Here is my virgin BeLL 404 Jeffery case resized primed, charged (93 grns IMR 4831) and bullet seated. It is compressed.

I had a lot of handle pressure to get it this far.
Since I'm not a "compressed load" kinda guy I'm not sure just how hard I need to push to get this to the cannelure? I sure the heck don't want to shoot this!
Any how, that's what i found.

Just an observation: I have never seen nor ever heard of a "failure"on a properly opened up 98. A while back, I delivered a 404 on a 1909 Argentine that was proofed in France. Just anecdotal, I know, but opening an action has been done for well over 80 years.

It's a sound gunsmithing operation when properly done...PERIOD!

Having said that, the 416 Ruger is really a pretty fine cartridge and an easier conversion.

If it were re named "416 Express", it would probably be at the top of the list

Hi Rusty, not doubting what you have found, perhaps your BELL cases have less capacity than others, never had one so I don't know. When I load the slow powders such as the 4831's I tip in the charge slowly while tapping the case to settle the powder. Some use a drop tube to fill from the base up while tapping, probably a quicker method. This is all commonly accepted practice with slow full case powders. Nothing wrong with good crunchy compressed loads, often listed in loading manuals.

Mindful also that heavy charges of slow burners in large bores are not peaking pressures quickly, because as the bullet moves there is an exponentially larger space for the 'slower' expanding gases to fill.
I'm not endorsing Jim's loads, I have never loaded my 404 to that level but do endorse his assertion that the 404 case (some of them anyway) will hold 93-95grs 4831 and if this has been a safe load in several rifles for Jim with good case life then I accept these are valid, if not top loads, for the 404.

Here is a F/L sized Kynoch case with 93.0gr IMR4831 and a 400gr RWS bullet seated ready for crimping. No powder compression (no crunch) easy bullet seating and I can just feel powder movement in the case when shaking.

Yours definitely has more case capacity than my BeLL.
There was lots of "crunching" as I seated the bullet.

Thanks for the exchange of information. Hope all is well over on your side of the pond!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Just an observation: I have never seen nor ever heard of a "failure"on a properly opened up 98. A while back, I delivered a 404 on a 1909 Argentine that was proofed in France. Just anecdotal, I know, but opening an action has been done for well over 80 years.

It's a sound gunsmithing operation when properly done...PERIOD!

Having said that, the 416 Ruger is really a pretty fine cartridge and an easier conversion.

If it were re named "416 Express" , it would probably be at the top of the list

Basically a modern .40 Newton

Crunching is only a sound, has no bearing unless you over crunch in which case the bullet will push out to some degree overnight in the 404 and 30-06 with H4831...That said I still use the old Jack O'Connor surplus 4831 and he could get 63 grs in his 270 but printed it at 72 so as not to scare the general he told me!

That said, I have shot both the new H and IMR4831 with both the 93 and 95 gr. loads and they were a bit warmer and primers were flat, but not enough to bother me..

I took a box of 95 grainers to Jim Brockman, as he was finishing a rifle and needed to check it out..He said they were really accurate and functioned fine with no hang ups but they kicked the crap out of him. I got half a box back! Told him that's why I shot the 90 and 93 gr. loads...Any decent African DGR should shoot a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS IMPO..I don't want my DGR giving 25-35 and 30-30 velocity, makes no since to me.

I went through this for a number of years ago - 416 Rem, 400 H&H, 404 J, 416 Rigby, 458 something. I settled on the 404 Jeffery for diameter (bigger than 416) and better ballistics than a 458.

My loads are:

430 gr Northfork Solid 3.59", 79.5 gr H4350, Norma brass, CCI #250; 2,200 fps

380 gr NF SP, 3.585", 82 gr H4350; 2,315 fps

Same POI at 50 yards. The 380 gr hits 1" high at 100 yards and still manages -4.5" at 200. The solid is -7 at 200 yards. 2" high at 100 for the 380 would get it out to 300 easy.


The solid did the job on an elephant. Solid on a bushbuck and SPs on a hartebeest and sable.

Need to try some solids on some hogs

A gunsmith friend of mine saw several "opened" '98 actions that had come apart. He said the problem was always the same: The bottom lug had insufficient support from the now-thinned action, allowing the bottom lug to move back, then one of the two locking lugs on the top of the bolt (the two that are split by the ejector) would give-way, leaving the other to hold the force of the pressure. The symptom was a cracking in one side of the top lug, but the reason was the increased space allowed by the reduced strength in the bottom lug.

Ray B,

the operative word is "properly". Harry Selby had a standard length 98 Mauser opened up and modified to take the 416 Rigby cartridge. The answer, as with all gunsmithing modifications is competence.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Yours definitely has more case capacity than my BeLL.
There was lots of "crunching" as I seated the bullet.

Thanks for the exchange of information. Hope all is well over on your side of the pond!

All good and agree the more info we exchange the more we learn. Our side of the pond would be much better if we had some big beasties to use our big bores on. Oz is getting almost expensive as Africa for a buffalo and then doesn't have the range of PG to go after on the same hunt as you can in Africa. It's getting harder as age catches up to get into our Alps on our prized chamois and tahr.
Life's hard at times

Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here. You're right, the operative word is properly. My friend had the same adversity of doctors that see people only when they are sick, policemen that only see people in response to broken laws. He saw only the broken actions since the ones done properly were still out in the hunting fields. the problem is that the shooter didn't know that his action wasn't properly done until he pressed the trigger and it failed.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ray B,

the operative word is "properly". Harry Selby had a standard length 98 Mauser opened up and modified to take the 416 Rigby cartridge. The answer, as with all gunsmithing modifications is competence.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ray B,

the operative word is "properly". Harry Selby had a standard length 98 Mauser opened up and modified to take the 416 Rigby cartridge. The answer, as with all gunsmithing modifications is competence.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Rich

Harry Selby bought that rifle off the shelf. He did not have anyone do anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ray B,

the operative word is "properly". Harry Selby had a standard length 98 Mauser opened up and modified to take the 416 Rigby cartridge. The answer, as with all gunsmithing modifications is competence.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Rich

Harry Selby bought that rifle off the shelf. He did not have anyone do anything.

So true as the quote below from Harry himself bears out. Without actually seeing Harry's 416 Standard M98 Mauser no-one knows how well the opening out modification was done. What we do know from Harry's own words is that the rifle performed to perfection over many years without any issues.

Harry Selby from Kwaheri Safari:
"I carried my treasured .416 Rigby, which I had acquired almost by accident. Toward the end of a safari back in 1949 in Northern Tanganyika with Donald Ker and Chris Aschan, my fine Rigby double .470 had been accidentally damaged beyond repair. I needed another heavy rifle in a hurry for my next safari and naturally looked for another double, preferably another .470. But the only rifle I could find was a .416 Rigby, which someone had ordered but abandoned at Shaw & Hunter, a Nairobi gun shop. The rifle was built on a standard Mauser action, of which I was skeptical. It fed rounds perfectly, however, when I cycled cartridges through the action rapidly.

Given our time constraints, I had no option. I bought the .416 Rigby as a stopgap, with the intention of replacing it with another double .470 as soon as possible. I never did, and I might add here that through many years and many hundreds of rounds fired through it, that standard Mauser action never gave the slightest hint of trouble. I knew the .416 Rigby rifle and cartridge by reputation, but nothing prepared me for the performance, which became apparent as soon as I began using it. The striking “knockdown” power, the incredible penetration with Rigby’s excellent solids and the flat trajectory all combined to make this, in my opinion, the perfect professional hunter’s rifle. When I
shouldered the rifle, it seemed to become an extension of my arm. There was no way I would have replaced it with another double".

From someone so qualified this is a mighty big commendation of both the cartridge and the rifle.