Has anyone tried a semi rimmed version of the 405 Win? Just take the rim down on the 405 to say around .480” and Voila! Bolt friendly lion medicine. 405 WSR (Winchester Semi Rimmed). I did the same thing for the 45-70 on a dummy round reducing the rim to .532” for a nice short action bolt action thumper idea

The .400 Whelen was developed as a sort of rimless .405. It's much easier to form brass for it, no trimming involved. Mine works flawlessly through my 1903 Springfield.

Guess I am just lazy as I went with the .405 WCF as is/was.
Winnie 1895 lever gun and Simson Suhl double rifle.

The 400 Whelen is one of my favorites
There I think there may be a few advantages of a semi rimless 405 over the 400 Whelen.
1 factory ammo with some alteration or single shot unaltered if you can get the extractor to slip over the rim
2 Less potential feeding issues so lower initial cost of conversion.
3 less hassle having a straight case.
4 Cool factor

If you want a single shot .400 Whelen, start with a Ruger No. 1.

I have had no feeding issues with my Springfield.

You do get slightly more case capacity with the .405: 76.06 grains H2O vs. 75.47 grains for the Whelen, but vastly more brass availability for the Whelen.

As for the "cool factor" I would need to consult my grandchildren on that. "Cool" is one of the more popular words in their vocabulary. I would imagine that my grandson would find my .405 caliber double rifle "cool".

The first deer I ever "harvested" was with my newly acquired .400 Whelen, almost 50 years ago.

The idea was to have the same magazine capacity as a regular 06 family of carts

Last time I looked, the .400 Whelen was in the same velocity class as the 450/400 AND my .405 WCF 300 and 400 grain handloads. In fact, one of my 1895 .405 shooter friend has his 400 grain Woodies up to 2157 fps and still climbing heading for 2200 fps.
He and I use VV N133 and he has promised to tell me his 400 grain load when he gets to 2200 fps.

BTW, I understand why some folks prefer certain action types and want a bolt action or single shot. To each his own. I personally like the 4 down and one in the chamber approach when hunting the big nasties.
BTW, Boomstick, what is the magazine capacity of the 30-06 rifles that you reference? I ask because I shoot an old .308 bolt action Model 70 and have never owned a 30-06 of any make.

Headspacing on case mouth or extractor/rimless-rim ?

That gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Should be 5 down and one in the pipe

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Last time I looked, the .400 Whelen was in the same velocity class as the 450/400 AND my .405 WCF 300 and 400 grain handloads. In fact, one of my 1895 .405 shooter friend has his 400 grain Woodies up to 2157 fps and still climbing heading for 2200 fps.
He and I use VV N133 and he has promised to tell me his 400 grain load when he gets to 2200 fps.

BTW, I understand why some folks prefer certain action types and want a bolt action or single shot. To each his own. I personally like the 4 down and one in the chamber approach when hunting the big nasties.
BTW, Boomstick, what is the magazine capacity of the 30-06 rifles that you reference? I ask because I shoot an old .308 bolt action Model 70 and have never owned a 30-06 of any make.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Headspacing on case mouth or extractor/rimless-rim ?

That gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Look at the 220 Swift being a semi rimmed case.
I was thinking that the headspace would be on the rim like a belted case would.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:

Look at the 220 Swift being a semi rimmed case.
I was thinking that the headspace would be on the rim like a belted case would.
/QUOTE]

Remember, the Swift was introduced in 1935 with the Model 54 Winchester rifle. That rifle and the Model 70 which succeeded it, both had cone breeches, like the Springfield, so there was nothing for the rim to engage with. The "semi-rim" was Winchester's description of an elarged rim to allow the cartridge to function with a .30-'06 bolt face. The Swift headspaces on the shoulder.

One of the (unfounded) complaings about the .400 Whelen was that the shoulder was insufficient to headspace on. This would have been true, if the original .30-'06 shoulder dimension had been retained, but the Whelen shoulder is made enough larger than the original shoulder to ensure proper engagement. (.4540" vs. .4410")

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that getting it to headspace on a semi rim would not be an issue if chambered correctly using a standard 405 reamer. Having a 3.34 0AL would make the 405 Win SR not only lion medicine but get into the big boned thick skinned category of carts with 400 grains at 2100+ fps especially with cast bullets.

below 30-06 and 405 Win loaded to the same length giving another .165” useable case capacity.

For a bolt action, the 400 Whelen is the no brainer, zero drama, choice. Brass, actions, bullets, and dies, are all off the shelf, readily available.
And ballistics equaling the 450-400 Nitro (of course at twice the pressure).
This is the most common barrel I fit, for a couple of years now.

What is the cost to get a 400 Whelen to feed reliably? From what I remember, it takes some work to convert a 06 based cart.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Remember, the Swift was introduced in 1935 with the Model 54 Winchester rifle. That rifle and the Model 70 which succeeded it, both had cone breeches, like the Springfield, so there was nothing for the rim to engage with. The "semi-rim" was Winchester's description of an enlarged rim to allow the cartridge to function with a .30-'06 bolt face. The Swift headspaces on the shoulder.

Thanks for that, xausa.
Having pretty much ignored the .220 Swift from my beginnings, I was ignorant of that fact of using a semi-rim to fit a .30-06 bolt face.
The conventional wisdom was that the +4000-fps .220 Swift was a barrel burner.
Not so.
It just copper fouls badly.
The oldtimers had no bore scopes nor the super-duper copper cleaners we have now.
Most of the "shot out" .220 Swift barrels would have been returned to accuracy by a good cleaning.
So says Bryce M. Towsley in the HODGDON'S 2012 ANNUAL MANUAL,
introducing "Copper Fouling Eraser" CFE-223 powder.

It turns out that the .204 Ruger
32-gr @ 4225 fps,
24-gr @ 4400 fps,
even faster than the Swift,
used Hodgdon CFE-223 powder, loaded by Hornady,
released as component powder to the public by Hodgdon in 2012.
The .204 Ruger was clean and fast and not a horrible barrel burner.
It was a success because of CFE-223 powder.

The original drawing by Townsend Whelen showed a .409-caliber bullet and proper shoulder.
So that would have made an even better shoulder than the current .411-caliber .400 Whelen, by .001" at each side.

I lengthened the throat a wee bit on one of mine, and load the .400 Whelen in a 3.6"-boxed Winchester M70.
Just unblock the back of a .270 WCF box, shorten the fixed ejector blade to .375 H&H fit,
voila, ejects a 3.54" COL .400 Whelen with no cutting on the action needed.
An extra 0.2" of .411" bullet projection gives you 6.71 grains of extra water capacity.
Worth the trouble ?

Rip
I had a fellow with a ruger 220 swift ask me if I would get it re-barreled for him as it had stopped shooting well after 10 years of prairie dogs and coyotes. I took it home and looked down the bore with a light and it looked like a copper pipe.
I cleaned on it for a week. Gave it back to him advising seating his bullets out a bit more and clean copper more frequently. He was very grateful as it restored his shooter. Cfe 223 has some interesting pressure curve results. Glad to see people testing it out. Speer has some data in a 35 whelen that is hard to believe.

Fury01,
Thanks for the anecdote backing up the likely undeniable truth about the .220 Swift: It got a bad rap on its rep for the wrong reason.
It just needed better cleaning of copper fouling for longer accuracy life of barrel.

And your tip on the CFE loads for the .35 Whelen has lead me to some more .458 TRUMP starting load data, in SPEER HANDLOADING MANUAL #15.
Back to THE MISSION.
.458 TRUMP
Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Back to the 400 Whelen; I build a lot of them. I have no idea what the original Whelen was, nor what a "proper" shoulder is.
I only use the G&H version which uses a .458 shoulder. I use only .410 groove diameter barrels; you can shoot common .410 or .411 bullets in them. Correct dies from CH4D.
On a modern action, no alteration is required as long as it was a 30-06 length case to start with. On a pre 64, or a Mauser you have to mill out the feed rails up front a bit. Nothing very hard to do. Because they were made to fit 30 cals and 8mm. And 7.65.