I took my 375 to the range on Saturday. Encountered an oddity though.
• I sighted in a new scope using cheap factory rounds – 270 grains federal blue box I think.
• I set the scope so the bullets were hitting 2 inches high at 100 yards.
• Then I tried a starting load with 350 grain Barnes Banded solids.
I was shocked to see the group sitting 11 inches below the point of aim! This meant that these were shooting 13 inches lower than the factory rounds. I then tried a set using the max load for the 350 grain solid. These hit 7.5 inches below the point of aim, or 9.5 inches lower than the factory rounds.

I decided to try the tipped TSX (250 grain) shells and see what they would do. Without adjusting the scope I shot 6 different groups and they were all grouping between 2 and 4.5 above the Point of aim-very similar to the factory ammo. The variance of 2-4.5 came from the different powder charges I was using. I loaded up sets that varied up and down the recommended powder charge for the bullet.

I need to see what the BC is on the different bullets, as well as get a chrony on them so I can see what is happening. I can’t go to Africa with different loads that are varying a foot at 100 yards!

Was wondering if anyone else had seen results like this when shooting solids.

Sure, and with premium bullets [RHINO, Swift, etc.] of vastly different weight. It is what it is. Find a solid/soft combo that you can live with and get to practicing.

2 cents

Try the 300 gr barnes banded solids. They grouped at the same POI as 270 TSX in my rifle

Good to know. I'll play with some different bullets and see what happens.

I am very happy with the way the TTSX's were performing, so the trick will be to try and find a solid that performs the same. I'll try the 300 grain barnes next.

In my 375 I find the 300 grain swift a frames and woodleigh 300 grains shoot to same point of impact.

in my 416 rem, 400grain swifts and 400 grain barnes solids shoot to same POI.

I use 1 grain of powder less for the solids with no sign of high pressure.

screw all that ...
270 TSX and go hunt .. sight it in for ZERO at 100 ... dead center, and if you are past 150, aim at hair, not air

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
screw all that ...
270 TSX and go hunt .. sight it in for ZERO at 100 ... dead center, and if you are past 150, aim at hair, not air

You will still need a solid for follow-up shots. Fortunately, Barnes used to make a flatnose 270 grain solid. YOu can order them directly from the website.The solid and the TSX should shoot to the same point of aim when shot at the same velocity. This may require a grain or more difference in powder because of different seating depths of bullets. But probably about the same powder.

Only after you 270 grain loads are finished, you can load up some 250 grain loads. If you ever have an 'over 300 yard' shot you can consider slipping the 250 TTSX into the chamber IF you know exactly how it shoots relative to the the 270 grain sight-in. Left/right up/down, anydifference must be known and its trajectory accounted for. Otherwise, stick with the 270 grain. In either case you do not touch the scope settings.

Tanzan,
My igorance may be showing.. for a 375, and for anything *I* would hunt with a 375, a solid is superfluous .. the TSX (or X) will sheer petals in event of hitting anything way too hard to penetrate, and then penetrate .. after seeing X bullets go 7 FEET through an eland, after hitting femur, and coming to rest under the skin in the chest, I can not see any need for a solid in a plains game gun ..

my concete in the matter is that i don't feel the 375 is a big bore, nor would i hunt animals that would require a solid with one.

though many have done so .. to me, big bores start with .4

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Tanzan,
My igorance may be showing.. for a 375, and for anything *I* would hunt with a 375, a solid is superfluous .. the TSX (or X) will sheer petals in event of hitting anything way too hard to penetrate, and then penetrate .. after seeing X bullets go 7 FEET through an eland, after hitting femur, and coming to rest under the skin in the chest, I can not see any need for a solid in a plains game gun ..

my concete in the matter is that i don't feel the 375 is a big bore, nor would i hunt animals that would require a solid with one.

though many have done so .. to me, big bores start with .4

I think that I agree with all of the above.
My first thought on seeing this thread was 'why would someone want a solid with a little 375? It's already small enough. I've never personally owned a 375, any buff and other animals taken with one were with borrowed 375s.
But then I remembered that I like having solids in 338. For potential full-length follow-up shots. So there is a purpose for a 375 solid, too.

I would add one thought--sheared petals on a TSX will not guarantee penetration like a true solid. Michael's Terminal Performance tests have shown that the sheared bullets pentrate better than the 'X'-mushroom, but considerably less than flat-nose solids. So I would use a TSX, or a TTSX, as a first bullet, and have solids underneath. Even for hartebeest or waterbuck sized game. Your eland example is great, but I would not rely on always getting such penetration from an 'X' bullet. Impala and reedbuck should be doable rear-lengthwise with a TSX, but solids already work, so there is no need to change the formula.

I plan to hunt Buff in Zim in 2012. I have a 450 Dakota for that. However, I am bringing a 375 HH for my second rifle. Should I loose ammo en-route and need to fall back to the 375 HH for Buff, I want loads that I am confident will be effective. Again, this is my backup plan.

I posted the question on this forum as the forum description calls this forum out as being for big bores of 375 caliber or greater. Perhaps I was in error and should have just posted this in the general African forum. My apologies if so.

My questions are not really around SHOULD I use a 375 or not, but rather, has anyone seen the dramatic deltas between POA and POI in different loads. 13 inches seems very extreme to me...

My take aways are:
A. try to pick a solid and an expanding bullet that are closer in weight
B. Experiment with different bullets, powders and charges until I find two that are closer.

I'll report back when I do, many thanks for the insights on this-I was quite taken aback by the huge deltas in POA vs POI!

quote:

Originally posted by Rob H:
I plan to hunt Buff in Zim in 2012. I have a 450 Dakota for that. However, I am bringing a 375 HH for my second rifle. Should I loose ammo en-route and need to fall back to the 375 HH for Buff, I want loads that I am confident will be effective. Again, this is my backup plan.

I posted the question on this forum as the forum description calls this forum out as being for big bores of 375 caliber or greater. Perhaps I was in error and should have just posted this in the general African forum. My apologies if so.

My questions are not really around SHOULD I use a 375 or not, but rather, has anyone seen the dramatic deltas between POA and POI in different loads. 13 inches seems very extreme to me...

My take aways are:
A. try to pick a solid and an expanding bullet that are closer in weight
B. Experiment with different bullets, powders and charges until I find two that are closer.

I'll report back when I do, many thanks for the insights on this-I was quite taken aback by the huge deltas in POA vs POI!

I've shot rifles in the past with 12" differences between different weight bullets. It is a function of barrel harmonics, where the muzzle is at the end of the whipping hose when the bullet exits.

that makes a lot of scence-the most I have heard actually.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob H:
I plan to hunt Buff in Zim in 2012. I have a 450 Dakota for that. However, I am bringing a 375 HH for my second rifle. Should I loose ammo en-route and need to fall back to the 375 HH for Buff, I want loads that I am confident will be effective. Again, this is my backup plan.

I posted the question on this forum as the forum description calls this forum out as being for big bores of 375 caliber or greater. Perhaps I was in error and should have just posted this in the general African forum. My apologies if so.

My questions are not really around SHOULD I use a 375 or not, but rather, has anyone seen the dramatic deltas between POA and POI in different loads. 13 inches seems very extreme to me...

My take aways are:
A. try to pick a solid and an expanding bullet that are closer in weight
B. Experiment with different bullets, powders and charges until I find two that are closer.

I'll report back when I do, many thanks for the insights on this-I was quite taken aback by the huge deltas in POA vs POI!

Use the 300 grain TSX and make the first shot good. My buffalo went about twenty yards. They don't go far with the top of the heart missing.

You DO NOT need solids. You are not hunting Elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob H:
I plan to hunt Buff in Zim in 2012. I have a 450 Dakota for that. However, I am bringing a 375 HH for my second rifle. Should I loose ammo en-route and need to fall back to the 375 HH for Buff, I want loads that I am confident will be effective. Again, this is my backup plan.

I posted the question on this forum as the forum description calls this forum out as being for big bores of 375 caliber or greater. Perhaps I was in error and should have just posted this in the general African forum. My apologies if so.

My questions are not really around SHOULD I use a 375 or not, but rather, has anyone seen the dramatic deltas between POA and POI in different loads. 13 inches seems very extreme to me...

My take aways are:
A. try to pick a solid and an expanding bullet that are closer in weight
B. Experiment with different bullets, powders and charges until I find two that are closer.

I'll report back when I do, many thanks for the insights on this-I was quite taken aback by the huge deltas in POA vs POI!

Use the 300 grain TSX and make the first shot good. My buffalo went about twenty yards. They don't go far with the top of the heart missing.

You DO NOT need solids. You are not hunting Elephant.

You DO need solids! Try shooting a big bull hippo on land with softs, even good ones, and see what happens. Not even solids going at 2 500 fps plus penetrates all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:

You DO need solids! Try shooting a big bull hippo on land with softs, even good ones, and see what happens. Not even solids going at 2 500 fps plus penetrates all the way.

i aint gunna PLAN on shooting hippo with a 375, most certainly on land. Come on, guys, don't use a lady's rifle for hippo on land

I agree that a .375 perhaps isn't the ideal weapon for a 2 500 kilogram animal and something that makes a bigger hole might be better. However, I didn't have something bigger at the time and, as I found myself confronted by a big bull hippo no more than 20 metres away in knee-high sugar cane on a dark and overcast night, that's what I used. My choices were:

1. Miss and probably get eaten or at best get run over; or

2. Shoot straight, have a beer whilst the nerves calm down and then go back to camp and brag about it.

As I'm sitting here typing this, the more astute forum members may deduce that I chose the latter course of action!

The 300-grain Woodleigh solid hit the beast in the neck as he was in the process of turning towards the source of the light (i.e. me) and he dropped like a ton of bricks. The bullet didn't exit, though, even though it went through a relatively narrow part of hippo (granted, the spine got in the way). I would definitely NOT try the same stunt with a soft, not even a Barnes,and it's one of those occasions when nothing but a solid would do. If someone knows how to do it, I'll e-mail a photo of the downed hippo and the bullet placement to be posted here to illustrate my sorry little story.

Also, from the handful of buffalo I've shot I reckon that only a solid is proper medicine for those directly going-away or very angled shots on departing buffalo bulls. Again, I wouldn't want to try that with a soft of any sort, at least with the .375.

Someone else may have a different view and that's fine, but I'll stick to solids for some applications. They work in my Girl's Gun!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i aint gunna PLAN on shooting hippo with a 375, most certainly on land. Come on, guys, don't use a lady's rifle for hippo on land

jvw375

No offense on the "girly 375" meant. Just I am not a 375 fan and it has nothing to do with being or not being a good caliber. I don't even own a 375 B&M of my own cartridge line! LOL........

I do agree with you on the solids however! And you did your hippo damn near the same as I did mine, I just was using a 458 Lott is all. Neck shot as well as he was turning to me at 6 yds. I was aiming for the ear hole--HEH HEH HEH..... Same results however!

I have been told by some that I have shot more big bore solids than any man alive or dead! I don't know if that is true or not, but I will say that I am probably the biggest advocate or promoter of using solids than any person alive, and probably dead!

Not just any solid either, a properly designed solid!

I advocate a load out of the old basic buffalo load out for everything I hunt or shoot. Now I don't purposely hunt small animals, like impala or deer. I shoot them, but that is not normally my end game. Obviously little real need on a 100 lb animal for a solid. But, from bear, kudu, elk, moose, buffalo, eland, and all such and in between, I load out a good soft or NonCon up front followed by properly designed solids next.

Now why in the world would one have solids backing up an excellent premium soft like a Swift, North Fork, Barnes TSX, or an excellent NonCon from CEB on animals like moose, or elk, or maybe even bear and eland? Who ever heard of such?

One day, if you hunt enough and spend enough time in the bush, you will make a bad first shot! Sooner or later no matter what you do, it's coming! What happens next? Nine of ten times, you are looking up the south end of a north bound critter! On some of these critters, it is a long way from South To North! While many times a good premium, and especially a superior NonCon may be able to make that journey on it's own, a proper designed solid CAN make that Journey with EASE. And a good designed Flat Nose Solid can crunch through bone, hit hard up front, and keep driving forward and do lot's of damage along the way! While solids are mostly considered for large thick skinned Dangerous Game, buffalo, elephant, hippo---with softer skinned animals think of them as more of an "Insurance Policy" than anything else!

One of the big problems with Us Americans, is that we Covet the all and wonderful "1 Shot Kill"! Those that have not been properly trained in such matters often Shoot, then watch and see what happens! Much wonderful game has been lost forever pulling such stunts! One never shoots and waits to see what happens. One shoots, then shoots again and again until one of three things happens, 1. You cannot shoot again because of no available shot. 2. You cannot shoot again because you have NO MORE AMMO! HEH... 3. Problem is solved, and then go ahead and shoot 1 More time anyway! Never stop shooting until You cannot shoot again, or the problem is 100% resolved. If it moves and you have a shot--Shoot!

A good solid just might save the day and keep you from loosing that all important animal. It was good enough to shoot the first time, follow up with a good solid to finish the deed!

Now let's say you might be out shooting plains game in "Dangerous Game Territory" with a "Minor" caliber rifle! Maybe 338, 358, 9.3 or 375? Well, you might only be hunting an impala, but what if that hippo, or buffalo, or even a damned elephant starts to be an issue? Going to solve that problem with your 250 gr Hornady Interlock in that 338? I don't think so! Might pay to have worked with a few GOOD solids before leaving home on that trip! Who knows, might save your bacon?

Of course, nothing better than a soft or NonCon up front for buffalo, followed by solids until the problem is solved. For elephant and hippo, Solids all the way, start to finish.

I can think of about a MILLION good reasons to have a proper solid along on a hunt, I can't think of any reason at all not to have them!

Michael

Michael,

No offense taken, mate!

I completely, 100% agree with you on the solid issue. My first buffalo, a big-bodied bull, took a 300-grain Swift A-Frame through the top of the heart and both lungs, with the bullet breaking a shoulder on the way in. He showed no - as in zip, nada, zero - reaction upon taking the hit and I thought for a moment I'd missed. I shot him twice more with 300-grain solids as he was running after the herd. Both connected and punched straight through, making some nice holes through the lungs on the way. Eventually, another 100 metres further on, his legs started to wobble and he finally went down, bellowing. Would a .404 or .458 have ended hostillities a bit sooner? Probably, but I used what I had, so .375 it was.

A perfect first shot is of course always nice. My second buffalo took a 300-grain Swift in exactly the same spot as the bull mentioned above from about 100 metres away. The beast took five steps, collapsed, bellowed and went to its reward. The rest of my magazine was filled with solids though, and had the buff tried to make for the thick mopane I would have drained the magazine into the beast as fast as I could. I believe in that kind of thing for the stuff that can hit back.

As I'm born and bred South African, I've never hunted in North America, but I do make a habit of throwing a few solids into my bag every time I go out hunting with my .318 or .375. They shoot through potentially wounded and expensive-to-pay-for wildebeest, kudu and eland from back to front (yep, in that order), they don't make a mess of impala and springbok and they don't blow holes in animals from short range whenever a coup de grace is required. In short, solids have their place and I'll keep using them for the forseeable future.

Again, I respect different views but my own experience has been that solids definitely have a place in the big scheme of things.

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
As I'm born and bred South African, I've never hunted in North America, but I do make a habit of throwing a few solids into my bag every time I go out hunting with my .318 or .375. They shoot through potentially wounded and expensive-to-pay-for wildebeest, kudu and eland from back to front (yep, in that order), they don't make a mess of impala and springbok and they don't blow holes in animals from short range whenever a coup de grace is required. In short, solids have their place and I'll keep using them for the forseeable future.

Again, I respect different views but my own experience has been that solids definitely have a place in the big scheme of things.

JVW375

Very Excellent! Hey, all Buffalo are not created equal, eh? And thanks for not holding my disdain for 375 against me, I have the same feelings about 7mm as well! Just a thing. One day I will go into it more in depth! HEH.......

Well, a man after my own heart when it comes to using solids I see. I think you understand very well, and have been in fact practicing what I have been preaching, long before you heard of me! Job well done! Now let me show you a photo of a perfect solid!





Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
screw all that ...
270 TSX and go hunt .. sight it in for ZERO at 100 ... dead center, and if you are past 150, aim at hair, not air

Yeah. You won't need solids for a .375 unless you're hunting the little antelopes, hippo or elephant.

I'd load a 300 A Frame, however.

I suppose I am of the mind that if you can get a soft/solid combo to work great it wont hurt a thing. The way I look at it is if you are prepared for everything you wont be lacking anything.

I am finding the 375 HH to be a very peculiar cartridge. I am getting wildly different results with different loads. I went to the range on Saturday and this time I brought a chrony with me.

As you will recall, two weekends ago, at 100 yards, both Factory Load Federal Blue box (270 grain SP) and my hand loaded 250 grain Tipped TSX’s were hitting about 3 to 4 inches above POA. But the hand loaded 350 grain Barnes Banded Solids were shooting about 11 inches below the POA.



This time, I again shot two different loads, also at 100 yards. The same Tipped TSX’s, and some Factory loads that were Federal Premium Nosler Partitions in 300 Grain. My tipped TSX’s were averaging about 2850 FPS. The Factory loaded Noslers were averaging 2430.



The hand loads gave me pretty good groups-around an inch or so-and were hitting 3.5ish inches above POA. The factory noslers on the other hand, were not grouping well at all with groups of around 2-3+ inches, and were hitting around 10 inches low!



So again, I am seeing variances of 12 to 14 inches between differing loads (20% increase in Bullet weight, and 420 FPS delta in velocity)! I find this fascinating and have not seen this with any other calibers I have shot.

not sure why that one photo is upside down... just stand on your head to read it.

there, fixed it.

For Rob H

It's probably not the cartridge but the rifle and the particular barrel vibrations and harmonics at the speeds of the particular loads.

I visited a person once and was hunting with a borrowed 30-06. He claimed that his various assorted ammo all shot the same and that the scope was sight-in. I asked to be 'humored' and to sight it in anyway. I purposefully shot a light looking pointed tip and a roundnose that looked like an old 220 grain soft. They were 10-12" apart vertically on the tree 100 paces away. My friend just shrugged his shoulders and said that I should be careful when shooting. I asked for more bullets. I shot a second "220" and it put a hole right next to the other 220. I explained that the wide spread was not the shooter but the different bullets. We then tested the different rounds and I settled for a different pointy-type at 2" high, and finding that the 220's would print 4" below aim with that sight-in.

We came up on some guinea fowl that flew into the forest. "Did my friend mind if I shot one with the 30-06?" "Be my guest." I walked up to a tree rest, the birds were just walking into the bush about 100 yards across an opening. Using a 220, I put the scope on the head level of the last bird walking straight away. The bullet took out the gullet and left a tasty pair of breast meat for the camp.

I have had an 8 inch delta in a 300 WM between a 180 and 220 grain Nosler Partition and I found that extreme. Glad to see it's not me!

On the positive side, figuring this out gives me a project to keep my mind off my late 2012 trip to Africa! Well, as much as it is possible to keep my mind off the trip that is.