I have posted this to in "what to build"but thought more might contribute if it where seperate. I used to e-mail Rodger a little bit and I hope he wont be angry I have posted the design of this round, but with the impending Montana PH it may be a marriage made in heaven.

Where could brass and barrels be had for this ??

PC-I can make a case like that, but would
take much more work than mine.Cost more, and would have BMG primer like mine(which is
good for ignition). And it would have to have longer belt headspace(about .320) with a more radius in the inside corner and
thicker web that would go with it.
Which is better and stronger For safety.
I don't feel safe to build a case that large with a web and headspace belt like 600 OK, or
web like Trex,600NE,460 Wea Family, or Nyati.

A custom run could be made say by Jameson,
but he would want to build it with thicker
bases like he does his 505s and it should
have the longer headspace.

Barrels can be gotten at Pacnor and others..

The 600OK guys are getting their cases to feed
with only .018 difference between belt and
bolt diameter, so you don't need as much
difference as that
case gives with a .800 bolt..Ed

Ed,

thanks for the reply I am ignorant when it comes to technical stuff like this, I thought this round was good because one could use 215m primers....especially in Australia as we can't get bmg primers I don't think.

So this design is flawed Ed ??

Ed,

I reckon we need a .700 case which van fit on this PH Montana action and also work with standard primers for ease etc.

If you have a better design that would fit in the PH action let us know

PC-My cases could have a bushing put in
to use 215 primers.Drill pocket a little bigger and thread in a bushing.And someone like fritz454 with good CNC equipment could do it. But with 600-700 etc, boxer primed cases,
a lot folks reloading those bigger cases are using a little shotgun powder in bottom
of the case to help ignition, as the regular primers aren't strong enough.

Our cases can be cut back to 3inches.I
think in a PH action cases can be 3.25 and still feed, and if port and other mods were made maybe even 3.5 in. My cases are 3.87
to start with.

In your country, I wonder if Bruce
could make a run as he does make make
big cases.Ed.

Ed,
i am going to stick with my original call at 3.25 on your case... i've got two, do you mind if i go ahead and trim those back to 3.25? I'll go ahead and design the single stack for them!!

jeffe

PC,

With the 50 BMG primers perhaps you could approach the importers who bring in Federal, CCI or whatever and get them to include an order of 50 BMG primers as they have the paper work/authority etc to bring in primers.

Mike

Jeff that will be fine.I got one here 3.25
with reduced rim and belt.My present base
on full case is .775, and reduced that to
.765 which I can do easily.Any more takes
more dies and lot a time.The belt was .795
and I reduced that to .780. The rim was .790
and it's reduced to .765. That gives .020
clearance on a .800 bolt.I can send you and John one if you want.I will post picture
later this weekend.

Mike--Your right about trying to get primers in as with big cases it makes ignition a
lot more dependable.Ed.

Ed,
Your ides of making a washer to size down the primer pocket it a good one. I would add a small tube that actually extends into the case a bit so ignition is from about an inch inside the case. I have done this very thing for DOD applications to get better ignition on some of their really large bore things that were getting poor ignition. It solved the problem.
Even added a bit of fast powder to the tube. That way it held in place no matter how much jostling it got in transport. I have not had a report of one failure since the switch.
BTW. Nothing classified here.

I'm going to find a way to do a 700 cal on the MRC PH. It will happen. ED's HE may well be the easiest way to go. I'm going to cad out some dimensions and solid the whole thing. I'll get some stress numbers and see what pressure the thing will take.

I've got to give MRC a call on Monday to get some of their final design specs. Hopefully I've got a .850 bolt to work with. IF it's only .800 it will be a bit trickier to get it to work but it can be done.

The 600OK works perfectly on a CZ 550 and has only .018 walls on the bolt to pick up the round. It looks too thin but in practice it is fine.

Ed could I talk you out of one of your 700HE cases for reference?

I'll post what I come up with but ED may already have the thing designed.

John

Ed,

If I was PC I would first buy the BMG primers in the US and then arrange to have them sent to a primer company in the US that Australian import agents bring in.

Probably take a few phone calls but since the primers are aleady paid for there should be a chance that the US Exporter could include the 50 BMGs that they have on hand and already paid for.

My 378 are feeling smaller by the day

Mike

Mike-perhaps Huntingtons could export primers
over there as they work with an importer
and exporter on west coast.

John-Yes I will get you cases.
Two the full diameter 700HE, and one the
reduced size to use with a .800 bolt
maybe they will make bolt bigger, so
I don't have to make smaller version..
I will post picture
of both sizes together later, for comparison.

I know that if they use good size lugs on larger bolt and I made a third lug out of
bolt handle like my other actions, that it
would be good for a 60k shear rating, which is
80% of the McBros.40-45k psi loads will do fine
and get you 2600 fps plus with 1000gr..Ed.

Ed

I think the main problem is them coming into Australia, ditto for powder and ammo, hence the idea of using one of the importers in Australia that are already set up to do this.

Mike

FWIW the bolt is .806. Any other situation I would not notice .006 but now it actually means something.

Here is pictures of the 3.25 in cases( call
them the 700BNE-Belted Nitro Express) set up to work with .800-.806 bolt, with a full length
700HE for comparison.
1st a 3.25 case with 1000gr Woodleigh,and
second a Woodleigh 1000 gr bullet.
Third a 3.25 case with a 1000gr PA soft
bullet and 4th a 1000 gr PA bullet.
Fifth a 700HE with a 1000gr PA soft bullet
and last six PA 1000 gr bullets.Nice
shape to the PA bullets.

The 3.25 cases shown here are slimmed down and shortened from my 700HE.If MRC will make a
little larger bolt we will only have to shorten the cases.Hope they will.Either way we can
get you the cases. Now about bullets.

I showed Martin Potts PA 1000 gr bullets as
he is set to make them and we want to get
a bunch of orders to pay for his investment.
The big dies are costly and he also got a
hydraulic press to make them and others
that Neal will sell on Brass and Bullets.
These are super quality bonded copper jacketed bullets with a shape similiar to Woodleigh,
but a little less costly, and made here
so customs, shipping, etc, is no problem.
They are better than Woodleighs I think as
he has the top of the copper jacket rounded over the nose a little, to add streamlining to
bullet and more important to make the nose
tough, IE a super strong bonded core soft.
Get him a bunch of orders guys so you have them on hand when you build a 700 of whatever size case---PA Bullets--- 541-267-4506...Ed.

Hey Ed, where are the pics?

Sorry tigger had a typo. Also mention that the 3.25 cases with the bullets as shown are
3.97 in long.So should work with 4 in
mag box on PH action.Ed

That looks pretty doable to me. I'll call Montana Monday and see if another voice from the wilderness can sway them to do a bigger bolt.

Tigger-Also ask them to make barrel thread
bigger to match the extra diameter they added to action.Must have bigger barrel thread for
this size case.I really think if they
make an action to fill the niche between
CZ,Ruger,Mauser,Enfield actions on one hand,
and McBros 50 cal actin on
other hand, they will get their orders
for first run built up
real fast. And sell them as fast as they
can turn them out.We have some actions from
expensive companies filling that size niche,
but most are ugly and you got to mortgage the
farm to get them.These PH actions are nice
and affordable, and can be a real blast with
our cases, if we can get them set up to use
big stuff.Ed.

Done deal!

hells bells, i was only kidding at first about turning a grove in the 700 nitro....

John, lemme know when you are ordering barrels!!


<hmm, now how do i fit THIS in a mauser?>

jeffe

I will wait until the PH actions actually get here to order barrels. I'm not convinced that they ever will, but hopes run high.

BTW never mention anything in jest around here it may be taken seriously

John

John-If we can't talk them into making
the PH with a size halfway between
regular and McBros actions, with long mag box,
larger thread, and .850 bolt, could you
setup your machines to CNC some? Copy
and scale up a Ruger.etc. Or make a bigger dia,
thicker Savage 210 action, to use the
Savage bolt,bolt carrier, trigger etc, in,
so you'd only have to make action....Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is pictures of the 3.25 in cases( call
them the 700BNE-Belted Nitro Express) set up to work with .800-.806 bolt, with a full length
700HE for comparison.
1st a 3.25 case with 1000gr Woodleigh,and
second a Woodleigh 1000 gr bullet.
Third a 3.25 case with a 1000gr PA soft
bullet and 4th a 1000 gr PA bullet.
Fifth a 700HE with a 1000gr PA soft bullet
and last six PA 1000 gr bullets.Nice
shape to the PA bullets.

The 3.25 cases shown here are slimmed down and shortened from my 700HE.If MRC will make a
little larger bolt we will only have to shorten the cases.Hope they will.Either way we can
get you the cases. Now about bullets.

I showed Martin Potts PA 1000 gr bullets as
he is set to make them and we want to get
a bunch of orders to pay for his investment.
The big dies are costly and he also got a
hydraulic press to make them and others
that Neal will sell on Brass and Bullets.
These are super quality bonded copper jacketed bullets with a shape similiar to Woodleigh,
but a little less costly, and made here
so customs, shipping, etc, is no problem.
They are better than Woodleighs I think as
he has the top of the copper jacket rounded over the nose a little, to add streamlining to
bullet and more important to make the nose
tough, IE a super strong bonded core soft.
Get him a bunch of orders guys so you have them on hand when you build a 700 of whatever size case---PA Bullets--- 541-267-4506...Ed.

Thanks Ed ..


I still have to get the knock out pin back from Richard Corbins... God i can't believe i left it at his place...

One other thing

The jacket walls are 0.050 Pure Copper

If anyone would like a 0.030 guiled jacket instead of pure copper let me know ..


Once again thanks Ed

Oh gees...

PM, how long is that OAL on the 3.25 case?

i might as well model it in quickload...

oh wow, it might be low enough pressure for a double!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Oh gees...

PM, how long is that OAL on the 3.25 case?

i might as well model it in quickload...

oh wow, it might be low enough pressure for a double!!

jeffe

The 1000 grain bullet i make is 1 1/8th inch long and it looks like Ed has about half the bullet in the case .

so at or under 4"... oh WOW

Jeff at MRC, you reading this?

jeffe

Jeff-Loads in picture is 3.97 in long....
With 3.25 case and Martin's 1000 grainer.
We all just got to keep calling them to make
PH with bigger barrel threads and .850 bolt.Ideal to give an action halfway between
CZ, etc, and McBros, would be .850 bolt- 1.6 diameter action- 1.25 barrel thread, 4.50
mag. But if we can get barrel thread to
about 1.2 and action is already 1.5 inches,it will handle case at the pressure and
velocities that would be loaded, whether case
is my 700 shortened for .850 bolt or shortened and reduced base size for .806 bolt.....Ed.

I've done my part. I reccomend all do the same.

E-mail to MRC:

<I have been on the list for 2 of the up-and-coming PH actions for some time now. How long until thay are shipped?

I am hoping you all choose an .850 bolt diameter and larger than average barrel threads for this wonderful action. In my mind, what is the point of an action this size with a 4.00" magazine length without larger bolt and barrel thread dimensions. I know you will sell a ton of these action once they are released. The market is void of an affordable action of this size.

Thanks for your effort,

Reign Clark>

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
I will wait until the PH actions actually get here to order barrels. I'm not convinced that they ever will, but hopes run high.

Keeping my fingers crossed too. But a guy would not be wise to plan a hunt around a Montana PH action.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so at or under 4"... oh WOW

Jeff at MRC, you reading this?

jeffe

This is close to the size .. close but no cigar as it were.

just wrote jeff@mrc... hope they at least read this thread.

heck, i am certain i'll wind up with a 700 NBE /AR

jeffe

Thanks Jeffeosso, I'll forward this to the old man. Thanks for al the suggestions everyone. I thank you also for bringing this to my attention, as I really don't have alot of time to get on these threads. But I will when I can.

I would imagine whatever chances there were of these actions becoming a reality will have been greatly reduced by CZ USA putting out the 505 Gibbs.

Mike

Mike,
i don't think the CZ offering will change the MRC product, as the 505 gibbs is "just" a modified 550 ....

come on MRC

jeffe

Jeffe,

I was thinking more along the lines that CZ USA is providing a real big banger, ready to go at only $1850. Plus AHR is doing 600 OK and the market that exists for bigger than 505 or 600 OK must be real thin on the ground.

Perhaps the key is that if say 300 people have ordered but it needs 400 to be viable then the existing 300 increase their contribution.

Let me elaborate on what I am getting at. The market for 35 Whelen and 338/06 is probably bigger than 375 but 375 has plenty of rifles and ammo because it is more costly and the 375 market will bear these increased costs but the 338/06 and 35 Whelen market will only bear 270 or 30/06 type pricing.

Bullets are the same, The market for 416 etc is small but the market will bear the very high prices which in turn allow the bullet maker to make such bullets in low volumes

In other words the Montan action is probably priced to low for a market that is so small.

Take 30/378 cases/ammo through to 460. The market must be very small but it is a market that will pay the exorbitant prices and those exorbitant prices make a low volume seller viable.

Perhaps with the number of orders taken and the number required the difference might not require much extra form existing orderers

Mike

Interesting.....guess we'll have to raise the prices.....nope still going at $525.00 until we start production, and we will start production. Can't say when because I don't know, but we will. Jeffeosso, I forwarded you email to him and he said that was interesting and would have the engineer look at it to see how much that would change design. So we'll see.

I think there are more closet big bore fanatics than you may guess. This is certainly not the only board and we have quite a few. (Still is the best one IMO). Having made bullets I get all kinds of requests that quite frankly I would never have dreamed up and that is saying something.

I really think there is a market that can include us nuts AND still service the normal big bore enthusiasts. Increase the bolt to .850, change the receiver threads to 1.187-1.25 inch, make the OD of the receiver 1.600, and get a magazine box that has 4.025 inside length.

Better yet include an option of a single stack magazine. This would cost extra at the customer's discretion. Hell I would even offer to design and fabricate it for MRC. Not going to do it for free but they could add on a fair mark up and pass it on. Jeff give me a call (406) 388-6666 if you're or the powers that be are interested.

The opportunity here is to keep the fans that want a 505 but at the same time build a platform on which nuts like me and a few others can really go wild on. BTW any increase in weigh only reduces the number of recoil tubes that need to be installed. Anyone shooting any of these cases that will fit the PH action will NEED weight so a bigger bolt and over all length or diameter is not going to be a concern.

I do really hope that someone listens to what is being said here. You would be the only guys on the block with an affordable platform to go form a 458 Lott to 700 Crazy mag.

John

OK, had to skip read part of it due to time restriction, but am I reading that there is a possibility of a single stack bolt action half way between standard Mag and McBros "big 50"? With a bolt face that could take .50 BMG rim size, but OAL of about 4" ....?

If that is the case, keep me in the loop, because I have some stuff that would fit that niche and then some ... now where did I put those drawings and simulations of the 458-50 Spotter AI? With the right bullet (need a 600 gr Match King in 458 ...) this would be the Big Bore Bench Rest ne plus ultra

Then there are some little DoD items ...

John,

You are definitely right about markets for odd things being bigger than appears.

I often go to the Australian importer for Hornady and often a new shipment will have arrived. You see boxes and boxes of bullets like the 348 Winchester bullets. One thing I often wonder is if Hornady realises that all the boxes of 375 220 grain flat points are going to 375 H&Hs or do they think Australia id full of 375 M94 Big Bores.

What might help the big Montana action along is if someone makes up some sort of 700 on one. Do any of the actions actually exist or are still drawing board stuff.

Are enquiries you get for big strange bullets from people who own such a gun or just toying with an idea and of course bullets are one part of the equation that needs to be there.

Mike

John,
i like Mike's idea... wrestle you for the first one!!!

jeffe