Which sort of raises a related question, what percentage of hunters contemplating using flat nose solids on a hunt ultimately abandon that plan because of feeding issues? My guess, more than folks might suspect.

Boy am I glad I don't reload. Been reading this thread just for academic exercise. I just grab my cheap Winchester and off the shelf ammo and go hunting. I let the rifle tell me what it likes and I make sure it feeds and off I go. I have come to the conclusion that I could hunt CB and of course Ele (taken 2) with just solids (and have). I have taken 4 CB with solids and 3 with softs, I couldn't find much difference in results. Some of my rifles shoot RN better than FN so that is what I shoot. I don't invest in tortured thinking. 10 safaris, no problems with ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Which sort of raises a related question, what percentage of hunters contemplating using flat nose solids on a hunt ultimately abandon that plan because of feeding issues? My guess, more than folks might suspect.

Or instead of abandoning the plan, fix the problem.

Call me strange, but when I encounter a problem that I can solve, I fix it rather than going and doing something else .

Edit: BTW, I notice now we are debating reliability of feeding rather than effectiveness of the bullets. Does that mean you agree that FN bullets are more effective than RN bullets in solids?

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Which sort of raises a related question, what percentage of hunters contemplating using flat nose solids on a hunt ultimately abandon that plan because of feeding issues? My guess, more than folks might suspect.

Or instead of abandoning the plan, fix the problem.

Call me strange, but when I encounter a problem that I can solve, I fix it rather than going and doing something else .

Right you are. And generally there is more than one way to solve a problem. For example, switching to bullets that feed and work just fine like they have for decades.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
...
Right you are. And generally there is more than one way to solve a problem. For example, switching to bullets that feed and work just fine like they have for decades.

Circular argument again. Your original point was to compare failures of RN bullets in the field vs failures of FN rounds feeding in the field.

My point is that failure of FN rounds feeding in the field is a non-issue as that can be resolved (if it exists for a particular rifle/bullet combination), prior to going to the field.

So, then the point becomes effectiveness of RN solids vs FN solids as all other issues are just straw man arguments.

Given that, all tests (lab or field) show that FN solids are indeed more effective.

Now, no one is holding a gun to your head to use FN solids. Heck, Cordite worked for decades as well, you can go full retro if you wish .

quote:

I just grab my cheap Winchester and off the shelf ammo and go hunting.

The 42 big bore bolt guns from .416 to .500 caliber I mentioned earlier in this thread are Winchester M70s
and every one of the feed and function flawlessly with North Fork and CEB #13s.........

RN VS FN
I dont see much of a difference here.A good video in that we actually see the bullets going through the medium.

quote:

Michael, what would you guess, if we looked at the issue from a percentage basis, realizing that round nose solids have been around a lot longer than flat nose solids, which of the two bullets would have the higher percentage failure rate in the field comparing failure/difficulty to penetrate versus failure/difficulty to feed?

Loaded question........

RN Solids do, they have, and the Potential is always there for them to fail in the field..... Not a high percentage of course, but so much so, that I personally have had it happen, and I won't do that again. Nor will the individuals mentioned above ever go to the field with a RN again, as they had and experienced a failure... 1 Failure per person is plenty enough, regardless of the percentages, and this is something within anyones control.......

There are plenty of cheap rifles around that won't feed many things........... So those percentages are high of course......

quote:

My point is that failure of FN rounds feeding in the field is a non-issue as that can be resolved (if it exists for a particular rifle/bullet combination), prior to going to the field.

I concur with Tanks, this is something sorted out BEFORE GOING TO THE FIELD, and if one chooses not to do so, then they have made a poor choice. If they chose to solve their problems with an inferior design bullet, then they have made the wrong choice and taken the easy way out. At some point, this can very well come back to bite them literally as the rifle is not feeding properly to begin with, either a design flaw in the rifle, magazine, feed ramp, or spring, and if this happens with a FN , then what is to say it cannot happen with a RN at some point? Fix the damned rifle....... End of Story..........

This is a point I will not Compromise with my rifles. If I had a rifle that will not feed either North Fork or #13 Solids, then these are the possibilities, I can send that rifle to Brian at SSK, or ones preferred gunsmith, or I can keep that rifle here as a TEST RIFLE TO NEVER GO to the field, or I would throw that POS in the trash.... There are no other choices that I would make. I will not Compromise field performance for the sake of taking the easy cheap way out..... End of Story.......

No Compromise........... I do in fact have a big Ruger in 510 Wells...... Damned thing WILL not feed anything but a 40% meplat bullet, which is more useless than a RN........ It weighs 12 lbs, I keep it for a .510 caliber test gun, and that is its only mission in life, nothing more. Too heavy to take to the field, and would never consider it to begin with, so its life is dedicated to test work only......... One of the 3 Choices I mentioned above.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
The ignorance shown by MJines, JPK and shootaway is staggering, given the length of time they have been on AR.

by definition, Ignorance is correctable, stupid is not.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
The ignorance shown by MJines, JPK and shootaway is staggering, given the length of time they have been on AR.

by definition, Ignorance is correctable, stupid is not.

Then shootaway is in trouble--

michael 458
If you are so sure that your bullets will both feed and shoot accurately in my .375 WBY send me a dozen or so for testing.
If not I'll stay with Mike Jines and Duane's advice and stick to RN bullets.
Mike has killed over 30 elephants and Duane knows more about the feeding of DG Mauser rifles than most any man alive.Their advice should not only be noted,but heeded!!
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed.
Put your money where your mouth is.
David L Wesbrook

The thing that is good about FN solids is that if they pass through and miss the brain,there is a chance they can cause damage to the rest of the ele while penetrating the extra distance.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
...
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed...

I fail to see how his advice could get someone killed. Do you mean that someone will reload FN bullets for his gun, and go on to shoot DG game somewhere in the world without ever testing reliability and functionality?

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
michael 458
If you are so sure that your bullets will both feed and shoot accurately in my .375 WBY send me a dozen or so for testing.
If not I'll stay with Mike Jines and Duane's advice and stick to RN bullets.
Mike has killed over 30 elephants and Duane knows more about the feeding of DG Mauser rifles than most any man alive.Their advice should not only be noted,but heeded!!
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed.
Put your money where your mouth is.
David L Wesbrook

Dave, How can you swear off a design with one rifle with the parameters of feeding, maybe your rifle needs tweaking?

It interesting that so many bitch and complain about feeding, as it has been said it is "Your" responsibility to make sure you rifle is squared away prior to going to the field. If your rifle doesn't feed then get the issue addressed, send it to a competent smith, but to give up a terminal advantage is remarkably stupid.

Energy transfer to the brain on a missed brain shot is really important IMO.The good thing about RN solids is that they seem to be the ones that will transfer the energy most.A good point also is that JPK and Jines have shot many ele and if they had any doubts or seen anything that would make them feel uncomfortable about hunting eles with RN solids,I think they would have spoken out.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
michael 458
If you are so sure that your bullets will both feed and shoot accurately in my .375 WBY send me a dozen or so for testing.
If not I'll stay with Mike Jines and Duane's advice and stick to RN bullets.
Mike has killed over 30 elephants and Duane knows more about the feeding of DG Mauser rifles than most any man alive.Their advice should not only be noted,but heeded!!
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed.
Put your money where your mouth is.
David L Wesbrook

and only an idiot would take an untested rifle to field.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
This thread? Anecdotal bullshit, product pimping, bragging and insults... surprise, surprise! ....over and out!

Excuse me?

Tanks
That is exactly what I am suggesting.Just how many times do you have to cycle an action to be sure that it will feed 100% of the time?

Seasons
I think that I know just a tad bit more about rifles than you do.

You could look at the whole ele head as a giant water jug.Do you want an easy pass through on a missed brain shot?

maxenergy
Lots of idiots out there

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
michael 458
If you are so sure that your bullets will both feed and shoot accurately in my .375 WBY send me a dozen or so for testing.
If not I'll stay with Mike Jines and Duane's advice and stick to RN bullets.
Mike has killed over 30 elephants and Duane knows more about the feeding of DG Mauser rifles than most any man alive.Their advice should not only be noted,but heeded!!
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed.
Put your money where your mouth is.
David L Wesbrook

First of all, they are not my bullets, they are made by North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullets. Second, I don't have any .375 caliber bullets here to send you?

jines experience is not in question, nor is Duane Wiebes gunsmithing, but the question is terminal performance of bullets, and a gunsmith is not qualified in that area anymore than I am qualified to work on his rifles....... I have only shot 8 elephants and some 100 plus buffalo, and a couple hundred or so of various other animals, so I reckon I don't have the experience some might have in one area or another........ and neither here nor there. And neither of the mentioned have any experience at all doing any sort of test work concerning terminal performance, which naturally will be determined by those as meaning nothing anyway............ so that tidbit does not hold water with me.....

quote:

Your blanket advice could get some one killed.

??????...........

I recommend using a bullet that has absolute known qualities for driving straight, hitting hard, and penetrating deep and is without question more reliable for all purposes in the field.

I recommend that if ones rifle does not work with these bullets, that one has a qualified gunsmith to make whatever changes are needed, so that the rifle does feed and function with said bullets. By doing so, this also makes the rifle more reliable for feeding ALL BULLETS.........

These recommendations and advice could get someone killed????? Just H-T-F do you figure that?

quote:

Put your money where your mouth is.

W-T-F is that???????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
maxenergy
Lots of idiots out there

indeed

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:

Seasons
I think that I know just a tad bit more about rifles than you do.

thats awfully presumptive, don't you think?

maxenergy

Presumptive? Not at all. I've built rifles for 38 years. How about you?

And those rifles you build are not capable of feeding FN solids? Do you warn your clients to the effect that they should only use round nose bullets, and they should compromise on terminal performance?

Of course, then they might seek a gun builder that can build a rifle that functions with all bullets rather than a subset of available bullets in the market place.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
maxenergy

Presumptive? Not at all. I've built rifles for 38 years. How about you?

oh, so this is about me now? again, presumptive. you don't know season's background any more than I but I wouldn't assume anything. however, you seem to have some trouble making flat nosed bullets feed. so what conclusions can i draw from that?

Tanks
RN solids have killed DG for over a century.

This thread reminds me of a side show carney and his shills(sp) pimping a product.
I'm out of here.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
Tanks
RN solids have killed DG for over a century.

This thread reminds me of a side show carney and his shills(sp) pimping a product.
I'm out of here.

And now we have improved solids that leave larger wound channels and penetrate deeper and straighter. Model Ts got people around, but not as efficiently as modern cars do, the same with round nose solids.

Dave,
I don't think anyone is pimping a product as no one has any financial gains.

Also, no one is asking you to stop building guns that only feed RN bullets. I am sure you have many happy customers that are content.

For me, I just would go elsewhere for my needs, and recommend another gunsmith to my friends. Wait, I already went somewhere else for the four of my guns that got completed this year.

Good thing is that there are many diverse choices for everyone. No one is forcing anyone else to use FN bullets and/or use a gunsmith that can accommodate their bullet choices.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Energy transfer to the brain on a missed brain shot is really important IMO.The good thing about RN solids is that they seem to be the ones that will transfer the energy most.A good point also is that JPK and Jines have shot many ele and if they had any doubts or seen anything that would make them feel uncomfortable about hunting eles with RN solids,I think they would have spoken out.

If you have a clue about the science of a bullet strike which is an inelastic collision you would know that their is a very small amount of energy transferred in an inelastic collision.
This diagram shows exactly what happens in an inelastic collision

I am allergic to such diagrams.I only go by the laws of common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am allergic to such diagrams.I only go by the laws of common sense.

Apparently you don't, because the laws of common sense accepts the laws of science.

Where this thread went south in my opinion, like so many similar threads, is where the most vocal of the flat nose bullet fraternity started to preach that anyone choosing to us a round nose solid has been blinded by tradition, is myopically focused on nostalgia, is trying to recapture the memories of their grandfather, cannot grasp the concept of fuel injection, longs for the days of the Model T -- or to use the term one person was able to find on the internet, are simply Luddites in denial of progress and technology. Any comments to the contrary offered by folks that actually have experience with round nose solids, including I might add some of the country's premier gun makers, were dismissed as the further rantings of lunatics. Efforts to try to point out the relative advantages and disadvantages of both bullet styles were met with more vitriol. Whether the flat nose bullet fraternity wants to admit it or not, those bullets are not necessarily the be all to end all and others that choose to focus on, for example, ease of feeding over penetration, are making an informed decision that does not define them as someone living in the dark ages of reloading and modern shooting. Guess what, people hunt with round nose solids every day, and have for decades, do so at the recommendation of their PHs and they fill their tags just like the folks hunting with flat nose solids. It may come to a shock to some, but because they happen to feel strongly one way does not mean that anyone that happens to feel differently is lost in the 1950's or is hopelessly obtuse.

quote:

Any comments to the contrary offered by folks that actually have experience with round nose solids,

Sorry, but I have plenty of experience with RN Solids........ So don't give me that.........

The problem with this thread going south, is those same VERY VOCAL Woodleigh Cult members start the preach the same old bullshit, and any one to the contrary of their thoughts is accused of all sorts of things....... bullet pimping, and what have you..... What you accuse the so called "FLAT NOSE FRATERNITY" of, in all reality those of you are in fact the party on the attack....... Do not think for a second that I did not catch all the snide smartass remarks you personally have made in the last year or so, remember the one concerning the strain gages? I do...... How about those "NEATO" little plastic tips, on this thread, and what that had to do with solids I do not know? So before you point that finger big boy, take a look in the mirror first............

Michael

quote:

country's premier gun makers

And further, if a premier gun maker charging whatever they charge, $10'000 + for a bolt action rifle, and it won't feed cartridges that a box stock $1200 Winchester M70 in 458 Winchester will feed, then I'd say the premier gun maker needs to go back to Dangerous Game Rifle building school..........

In addition, if their attitudes match what I have seen here on this thread, then they should stick to building rifles for rats................

I did not see having an issue with Duane, but it seems that this is a possibility according to his last post, but not 100% sure of that just yet........... This other chap.... well not sure what he is on about.........

Thanks jines for bringing those guys on..... gives some insight......

Michael

There are just times that you cannot drag people out of the 19th century--even though we are in the 21st-------

If they want to drive horse and buggys and fly in bi-planes--well thats their choice.

BTW n Mausers are over rated--the last 4 rifles I have seen fail on a hunt were all Mausers.The cone breach on a m-70 is a huge improvement.

Michael, the lady doth protesth too much, methinks . . . to stick with Shakespeare. Once again you try to carry the point by simply shouting the loudest. At least you are becoming less verbose in doing so.

I have to say though, when it gets to the point that you start denigrating folks like Duane and Dave and their work, frankly that is a bit pathetic.

quote:

I have to say though, when it gets to the point that you start denigrating folks like Duane and Dave and their work, frankly that is a bit pathetic.

I will say it again, and I will say it to their face, whoever it is, if any gunsmith charging $10'000+ for a bolt action rifle that will not feed the same ammo that a BOX STOCK WINCHESTER M70 will feed straight out of the box for $1200 needs to go back to school and learn how......... That is not at all denigrating..... just the plain truth.......

Michael

Geez, a guy hits the rack, goes to church the next morning, stops for lunch, and then sees that the ‘natives’ have toed the line and started chunked spears at each other since he timed out…

Anyway, sorry for consolidating this into a single post but it’s somewhat easier that way…

quote:

The ignorance shown by MJines, JPK and shootaway is staggering, given the length of time they have been on AR.

Gerard,
No need to make it bluntly personal. Some guys like ‘Break My Wallet’ vehicles while others prefer ‘Fix Or Repair Daily’ vehicles, neither is necessary ignorant but both will spend money to keep on driving…

quote:

Reliable feeding is "of very little to no consequence"? The discussion of penetration probably seems a bit irrelevant to the poor fellow standing there with a rifle that failed to properly feed on a follow up shot. But I digress, unlike the occasional story of a round nose bullet that failed, there has never been the similar occasional story of a flat nose bullet that failed to properly feed.

Mike,
I’ve just started watching hunting programs on cable again and what do I see this week – First hunter fired his first shot and then struggling for more time than it’d take for a competent hunter to empty his rifle and start reloading to finally get the second round chambered. The second hunter stove-piped the second round and never did chamber another round to fire at the escaping game animal. Killing shots were finally fired into both animals after lengthy tracking… And both hunters were using factory rifles with factory loaded ammunition using expanding bullets. Crap happens but it seems to happen more often to the unprepared hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
michael 458
If you are so sure that your bullets will both feed and shoot accurately in my .375 WBY send me a dozen or so for testing.
If not I'll stay with Mike Jines and Duane's advice and stick to RN bullets.
Mike has killed over 30 elephants and Duane knows more about the feeding of DG Mauser rifles than most any man alive.Their advice should not only be noted,but heeded!!
BTW I seldem shoot factory rifles but many people do.Your blanket advice could get some one killed.
Put your money where your mouth is.
David L Wesbrook

Dave,
I’m not Michael but have a deal to make with you.
I’ll order a sample box (20 count box) of NF FPS .375 caliber bullets for you – your choice of 300gr or 350gr and send them directly to you – just PM me with a street address for delivery.
But here’s the deal…
If they feed properly, just do some target testing.
I’ve seen your metal work so if for some reason these bullets don’t feed in your .375 Weatherby based M98 Mauser rifle then I only require that you determine what modification would be necessary to your action to make them feed properly. You do not have to make the modification.
Regardless of which situation you encounter – post your results in this thread on this forum.
Nothing more is required on your part…

Me, I’m only out the cost of a sample box of NF bullets, nothing more, nothing less.

Before you think I’m setting you up – here’s a background story for you…
A few years ago Duane was unable to accommodate metalwork that I desired so he put me in touch with Steve Button.

Steve undertook the work and while we were on the telephone one day, discussing another barrel delivery delay, he informed me of what he did (while we were on the phone).

Steve had a commercial FN M98 Mauser action (factory delivered in .375 H&H) in his padded vice and was completing the rail work (had not touched the ramp) to assure proper feeding from both rails of Norma factory loaded 404 Jeffery cartridges from the Wiebe 4MJ bottom metal (401 Jeffery specific standard depth 4-down one-piece magazine bottom metal).

During our conversation Steve pulled my dummy .423/338 Lapua Magnum and .500/338 Lapua Magnum wildcat cartridges each caliber having a sampling of spitzer, semi-spitzer, and FN solid and HP monometal bullets – filled the magazine with each caliber individually and cycled them through the magazine; full magazine of spitzer, full magazine of semi-spitzer, and a full magazine of FN monometal bullets. I found out what he did when Steve informed me “these feed like a hot knife through butter” (obviously cleaned up for the internet). Anyway from our discussion the .423 caliber held 3-down and feed each type or a combination of all types from the magazine without issue. The .500 caliber only held two down because the case is ‘blown out’ to accommodate the bullet diameter but fed from both rails without issue. (It holds 3-down with the magazine appropriately machines to accommodate the cartridge shoulder diameter.)

So we have a .375 H&H factory chambered FN commercial M98 action with very minor rail work to properly feed commercial Norma’ 404 Jeffery ammunition from both rails from the Wiebe 4MJ bottom metal.

Here are my two FN commercial M98 Mauser based rifles – I apologize for the photography (that’s not my strong suit) – and as noted they’re not ‘completed’ as yet:

quote:

I haven’t weighed it yet – both have 21.5” barrels with 3-groove 1:9” twist.

quote:

Here’s a full-length shot but photo buggers the look as the rifles are only 1” difference in overall length:


Closer look in the action area:


Yep, 3-position left hand safeties by Satterlee:

And the Weibe 4MJ magazine works perfectly ---

quote:

Top view of the .500 caliber rifle with three 12.7x68 Magnum cartridges in the magazine:


Top view of the .500 caliber rifle thumbing 4th round into the magazine:


Top view of the .500 caliber rifle with bolt picking up 4th round for chambering:

As can be seen, there is glass work needed to better fit the barreled actions to the stocks in both rifles. Metalwork finish also needed. Currently I’m still noodling over the metalwork finish (leaning towards Cerakote) and what finish (paint scheme) I’ll have applied to the synthetic stocks.

Yes I am ‘pimping’ my metalwork somewhat as I believe Steve’s work was more than I’m envisioned.

Each rifle holds 3-down of my Lapua Magnum wildcats with sufficient space to thumb a 4th cartridge into the magazine so that its picked up by the extractor when cycling the bolt forward.

Do they feed properly? Well I shucked empties all over the garage floor the other day without a feeding hitch – this with scratched case dummies not actual loaded ammunition. So any feeding issues I’d see in the field would be caused by me, not the feeding ability of the rifles…

Anyway Dave, I hope you’ll accept my offer.