Hi guys,

Just say you are armed with a .416, .458WM, Lott etc.. and you are in elephant country so you are only armed with premium solids.
If you also wanted to hunt a variety of other game such as buff, lion, warthog etc... how effective are solids in a big bore on smaller than elephant sized game?
I'm assuming that they would still kill quite well, but I have zero experience on this.

Thanks guys,

Russ.

I've used solids on plenty of plains game. All they do is punch a hole in the animal and don't expand so the exit hole is the same size as the entrance hole. If shot properly the animal dies quickly. If shot poorly, such as a gut shot, it takes longer to die or is less of a wound due to no expansion. I used my .600 Wilkes on smaller game often with solids.
Cal

Ditto what Cal said. While I've only used a 375, if you don't hit CNS with solids they tend to just whiz right through and expend very little energy in the animal so even a heart or lung shot will often show little effect. At least that was my experience.

Have shot a few pigs with solids, and have been less than impressed on the heart and lung shots. Gets the job done, but not as effectively as softs.

Were any of you using flat point solids? IME flat point solid leave a larger wound channel than round nose solids.

I've shot an ostrich and an oribi using solids, which worked quite well. The solids were specifically taken on a PG hunt for the little guys to minimize damage to the skin.

Have used the Hydros on smaller game with big bore rifles, and they are much more effective than conventional solids.

Despite that, it is really a matter of what you have in the chamber at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Were any of you using flat point solids? IME flat point solid leave a larger wound channel than round nose solids.

+ 1

There is a marked difference in the wounding capacity of the flat-nosed solid over the outdated "traditional" round-nose solid.

+2
Flat nose solids do much more damage than round nose solids. Flat nose solids are great for smaller anomals as they kill well but don't damage hides as bad as expanding bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
+2
Flat nose solids do much more damage than round nose solids. Flat nose solids are great for smaller anomals as they kill well but don't damage hides as bad as expanding bullets.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Many times over, absolutely zero comparison between the amount of tissue destruction between a RN solid and a proper designed FN Solid......... RN drills a tiny hole, no damage except the tissue it comes in direct contact with and often closes up on exit........

Not so with a proper FN Solid, big hole, will not close, lots of trauma inflicted and damage to tissue, and believe me animals hit with them take notice... I have done both and seen tremendous difference in not only tissue destruction, but animal reaction to the hit as well....

M

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Were any of you using flat point solids? IME flat point solid leave a larger wound channel than round nose solids.

+ 1

There is a marked difference in the wounding capacity of the flat-nosed solid over the outdated "traditional" round-nose solid.

OutDated & Traditional RN Solid....... Could not have said it better myself............ HEH........

Using only solids in your big bore will make hunting more exciting-you got to make that first shot really count-more skill required with open sights for sure.I took both my Makuti dream buffs with a Hornady solid-the two most memorable shots I made in my life!-I hope I surpass this one day-maybe on my next hunt-who knows?.

I would have no problem with using a solid on any DG animal if the circumstances showed he need and that's what I had in the gun..You make do..I would not be very happy with solids on a Lion, the rest or the DG would suit me fine with solids.

Killed several Cape Buffalo with woodleigh standard FMJs and quite convincingly too. Even with the light 9.3x62.
Have recovered plenty that would have even been reusable.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Killed several Cape Buffalo with woodleigh standard FMJs and quite convincingly too. Even with the light 9.3x62.
Have recovered plenty that would have even been reusable.

And..... Ozhunter..... I will make a small wager on two points..... If using that Woodleigh Hydro, you would have seen even more convincing trauma, and animal reaction to the hit, and I bet the buffalo would be more convinced as well.... Second, You probably would not have recovered very many of these that could have been reused.......... While I can't say for 100% certain concerning the Hydros because I have not used them in the field, but have tested them here with excellent results, I use those since you are a Woodleigh man...... I can say for 100% sure that this would be the case with the #13 Solids....... In fact, the only one I ever recovered from buffalo was one bull shot in the nose at 4-5 yards, with a 500 gr .500 at 2350 fps, it was found with the nose poking out of the rear end.......

My next comment is not directed to Ozhunter, or any one individual in particular.....

Those that are of a certain mindset, where their vision is clouded by "Tradition" "Nostalgia" or "My Great Grandpa used these RN bullets for the last hundred years and never had a problem", these peoples minds are so clouded by these things that any thoughts, or any words otherwise is frankly a waste of time, as they cannot get past either tradition or Nostalgia, or the fact they have been used successfully in the past. To them, there is no reason to even attempt to do better, to search for a better mouse trap, and to say there might be a better mousetrap is the equivalent to blasphemy........ HEH....... And we all know I have been a "SINNER"....... LOL.......... While I can understand Tradition and Nostalgia when it comes to using certain firearms in the field, I will never understand it when it comes to bullets.............. Nor do I wish to understand it...... What exceeds my understanding, is my lack of giving a hoot in this particular area........ Me? I am going to continue to SIN, it is far more successful............

M

No doubt about it, flat nose bullets kill animals at least two times as dead as round nose bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
No doubt about it, flat nose bullets kill animals at least two times as dead as round nose bullets.

Oh Wow.... You missed your true calling, with that wit, you should have been a comedian........

Or, could be you are just short a few quarters?

Buzz tells a story about a hunter that was hunting sable with Rex Hoets. Rex got the hunter on the sticks and before the hunter could shoot, the sable dropped dead. I am certain that the "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say is that the hunter was shooting one of the modern monometal flat nose bullets. The mere prospect of being shot with that bullet was enough to kill the sable. What more can you ask for from a bullet in terms of performance?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Were any of you using flat point solids? IME flat point solid leave a larger wound channel than round nose solids.

+1

While a lot have said due to premium expanding bullets...solids are becoming obsolete...I am jus the opposite. With .458 bore or larger and flat point solids...softs are "almost" not needed.

quote:

I am jus the opposite. With .458 bore or larger and flat point solids...softs are "almost" not needed.

Forever true, I could not agree more...... These solids are the insurance policy when your shot from a soft, or trauma inflicting bullet goes wrong.......... If you question the trauma that can be inflicted, or brush busting ability, see below.........

In Zimbabwe in June this year I hit a buffalo with a 410 gr .500 caliber Raptor at 2500 fps on the shoulder, massive trauma, so much so the buffalo could not run, but could only turn around 180 degrees and was on its way down. Well, I am not one to wait and see what happens, before the buff could go down I had sent a matching 450 #13 Solid down range into what I thought was a clear shot into the opposite shoulder, what I did not see was this 8 inch diameter tree in front of that shoulder! Now how in the world one cannot see a 8 inch tree I cannot tell you, I don't know? But I did not, all I saw was buffalo shoulder and turned it loose! I did not even realize I hit the tree until my son Mark David pointed it out, or at least I think it was Mark David, I was in the heat of battle!

That .500 450 #13 Solid hit this tree nearly dead center, it passed dead straight through the tree, hit that buff on its right shoulder, and exited dead straight the left shoulder and may still be going.......... What I want you to pay attention to, is how hard it hit that tree, which was so hard it knocked the bark completely off the tree..... Try that with your RN Solids and see what you get? Or perhaps your favorite Soft?

I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding. Handgun hunters learned long ago that the flat-nosed profiles offer deeper straight-line penetration over round nosed designs, and as an added bonus, they cause a lot of tissue damage over their round nosed counterparts.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding. Handgun hunters learned long ago that the flat-nosed profiles offer deeper straight-line penetration over round nosed designs, and as an added bonus, they cause a lot of tissue damage over their round nosed counterparts.

A round nose solid delivers more energy in a shorter span of time and distance than a FN solid.

That is a useful trait in some circumstances where penetration requirements are within the limits of RN penetration in that game.

For example, from my rifle a RN solid on a frontal in an elephant head delivers an average of about 36" of penetration. A FN solid delivers about twice that, maybe more - they penetrate so far that finding them can be difficult, passing through the neck and into the body if the angle permits it. Both start with the same energy, both end with the same energy. The RN dumped all of it's energy into 36", all of it in the head or just beyond the head in the neck, the FN delivered less than half of its energy in the same distance and time. If the shot is true and the elephant is brained there is no difference, but if the shot was off its mark the knock down or impact effect of the RN is observably greater in my experience.

I have killed five buff with solids and a bunch of smaller game. The buff, if shot well, die very quickly. The smaller game often takes longer to die than a buff. In the field I haven't noticed a difference in the time it takes to die for game shot with FN or RN solids, but the FN solids definitely do more damage, at least until the RN tumbles, which I believe they do most of the time toward the end of their penetration, if they don't exit.

As Ray Atkinson advocates, a cup nose solid like the Northfork cup nose is probably the ideal compromise, and in a big bore all but makes a soft point obsolete. They appear to have adequate penetration for even elephants too. I shot one into the brain of an already dead tuskless cow from the front. It penetrated plenty enough for any brain shot and more than the average of a RN, but I've only tried that one.

JPK

oh lord, energy dump again

do you still believe in leprechauns?

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
oh lord, energy dump again

do you still believe in leprechauns?

So, how many elephants have you shot?

What was the observed effect of RN vs. FN solids?

JPK

Two identical cars are driving 60 mph, one car stops over a distance of 100 feet, the other car stops over a distance of 200 feet. Which car reduced its momentum over the shorter distance? Where did that energy go?

I actually wonder if those bullet pioneers that started experimenting with flat nose bullets many years ago actually believed that it would increase penetration. Or did they believe that the flat meplat would actually have a greater shock impact and would expend more of its energy in a shorter distance.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
oh lord, energy dump again

do you still believe in leprechauns?

So, how many elephants have you shot?

What was the observed effect of RN vs. FN solids?

JPK

How many animals you shot?

Discussion has nothing to do with Elephants...... Elephants in particular have not been mentioned...... Animals in general........ and mostly actual trauma inflicted by flat nose
solids vs RN, buffalo and effects have been mentioned, along with many other things, this is not an ELEPHANT thread alone...

But since you always tend to run this direction. 8 as I recall, and I have seen a remarkable difference in the way elephants react to taking a big FLAT NOSE solid vs a round nose anything....... No doubt, FN hits harder, and elephant take far more notice of the hit than a round nose......... Now the only two elephant I have shot in the head were drop dead in the spot brain shots on the first round....... One RN and One FN....... The rest heart shots, which there is absolutely no comparison between FN and RN on heart shots, the FN wins out miles and miles and mile ahead of a RN........ If the round nose dumps so much energy as you say in the head, why do so many of them run off after a head shot with RN solids? Just curious.... Looks like all that huge energy dump would just knock 'em "FLAT", that is of course if it was actual..........

Michael

how did this turn into an elephant hunting thread? no elephants for me, however, my experiences are still relevant to this discussion. how pray tell did you determine that your round nosed solids deposited more energy into said pachyderms? by penetrating poorly compared to flat nosed solids? how does that compute?

Michael,

You know as well as I do that Whitworth's post brought elephants into the picture since a FN is not the end all be all of solid bullets, and has some attributes that can be detrimental in some circumstances while RN's have some often detrimental characteristics that can be used to advantage I some situations. Brain shots on elephants being the most obvious example.

I response to you question regarding why don't elephants drop to missed brain shots taken with a RN, my answer is that most do drop. Most that I have missed the brain shot on when using a RN have dropped, a couple out cold needing only an insurance shot, some only momentarily. Those that haven't dropped or fallen have at least stumbled, giving time for a second shot, usually a heart/lung shot with a FN.

In answer to the remainder of your questions, here, from my first post on this thread:

"I have killed five buff with solids and a bunch of smaller game. The buff, if shot well, die very quickly. The smaller game often takes longer to die than a buff. In the field I haven't noticed a difference in the time it takes to die for game shot with FN or RN solids, but the FN solids definitely do more damage, at least until the RN tumbles, which I believe they do most of the time toward the end of their penetration, if they don't exit.

As Ray Atkinson advocates, a cup nose solid like the Northfork cup nose is probably the ideal compromise, and in a big bore all but makes a soft point obsolete. They appear to have adequate penetration for even elephants too. I shot one into the brain of an already dead tuskless cow from the front. It penetrated plenty enough for any brain shot and more than the average of a RN, but I've only tried that one."

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by maxenergy:
how did this turn into an elephant hunting thread? no elephants for me, however, my experiences are still relevant to this discussion. how pray tell did you determine that your round nosed solids deposited more energy into said pachyderms? by penetrating poorly compared to flat nosed solids? how does that compute?

It didn't, it is a thread about solid bullets.

Your experience is certainly relevant to a portion of the discussion, but not to responding to this over broad and inaccurate commentary from Whitworth: "I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding. Handgun hunters learned long ago that the flat-nosed profiles offer deeper straight-line penetration over round nosed designs, and as an added bonus, they cause a lot of tissue damage over their round nosed counterparts."

You need to reread my posts and then MJines most recent post to answer your last three Q's.

JPK

I didn't make this an elephant hunting thread.

Inaccurate? How? Can you show me in any test medium that a round nose solid will out-penetrate a good flat-nosed solid? Where a round nosed solid will track straighter than a flat-nosed solid? Deeper? Make a larger wound channel? The answer to all of the above is that it will not. I get that y'all like to stick with what you have been successful with -- why fix what isn't broken, right? However, to deny that these flat-nosed designs don't work better is rather disingenuous to me. Why is it that so many bullet manufacturers are moving in the direction of flat nosed profiles? Is it because they don't work better than round nosed profiles? Or that they want to spend the money retooling in this booming economy (sarcasm)?

How do you think we get such out-of-proportion penetration out of handguns that are so ballistically challenged (at least on paper)? First clue is that we NEVER, EVER, use round-nosed profiles.

Those brass solids and copper solids have a hard time stableizing in big bores compared to jacketed solids.I would shoot the brass solid at 100yds and check if it groups and its POI is OK and not extremely low before I take a chance on them.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Those brass solids and copper solids have a hard time stableizing in big bores compared to jacketed solids.I would shoot the brass solid at 100yds and check if it groups and its POI is OK and not extremely low before I take a chance on them.

Huh??

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I didn't make this an elephant hunting thread.

Inaccurate? How? Can you show me in any test medium that a round nose solid will out-penetrate a good flat-nosed solid? Where a round nosed solid will track straighter than a flat-nosed solid? Deeper? Make a larger wound channel? The answer to all of the above is that it will not. I get that y'all like to stick with what you have been successful with -- why fix what isn't broken, right? However, to deny that these flat-nosed designs don't work better is rather disingenuous to me. Why is it that so many bullet manufacturers are moving in the direction of flat nosed profiles? Is it because they don't work better than round nosed profiles? Or that they want to spend the money retooling in this booming economy (sarcasm)?

How do you think we get such out-of-proportion penetration out of handguns that are so ballistically challenged (at least on paper)? First clue is that we NEVER, EVER, use round-nosed profiles.

Whitworth,

Here is the relevant and inaccurate portion of your quote:
"I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding."


Penetration isn't everything in a solid, though in most circumstances it is the single most important attribute.

There are a handful of circumstances where the usually negative characteristics or RN solids are advantages and the usually positive attributes of a FN are disadvantages.

Two that immediately come to mind are brain shots on elephants for the reason previously given and shooting buff or elephants in a herd. A good FN will pass lengthwise though a buff or broadside through and elephant.

Bullet makers sell bullets to the people who buy them. How many of those have killed enough elephants or buffalo to even begin to have enough real world experience to have a clue on what works best in what situation. Moreover, it cost more to make a good RN solid. Take Hornaday's failures when they changed their RN as an example. Or the miserable failure of the RN Barnes mono solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding. Handgun hunters learned long ago that the flat-nosed profiles offer deeper straight-line penetration over round nosed designs, and as an added bonus, they cause a lot of tissue damage over their round nosed counterparts.

No reference to elephants, that I can see.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Those brass solids and copper solids have a hard time stableizing in big bores compared to jacketed solids.I would shoot the brass solid at 100yds and check if it groups and its POI is OK and not extremely low before I take a chance on them.

Huh??

Remarkably, Shootaway is correct. A first for everything, eh?

You probably know some older big bores have very slow twist rates that make shooting relatively heavy monos questionable, and the cartridge [edit to add: or rifle] may not allow loading it to velocities that would make a reasonably heavy mono solid work.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding. Handgun hunters learned long ago that the flat-nosed profiles offer deeper straight-line penetration over round nosed designs, and as an added bonus, they cause a lot of tissue damage over their round nosed counterparts.

quote:

You know as well as I do that Whitworth's post brought elephants into the picture since a FN is not the end all be all of solid bullets, and has some attributes that can be detrimental in some circumstances while RN's have some often detrimental characteristics that can be used to advantage I some situations. Brain shots on elephants being the most obvious example.

JPK..... No man, sorry, I cannot see any reference in Whitworths post that would have any relevance to elephant in the least... Appears to be a "General Purpose" statement concerning the effectiveness of a FN vs RN overall. And, I cannot agree at all with how the detrimental characteristics of a RN can be any advantage at all in any situation, whether in general, or in elephant or elephant heads... Brain shots on elephants OBVIOUS? No thanks, can't buy any of that today.........

quote:

I have killed five buff with solids and a bunch of smaller game.

First buffalo I shot with a FN Solid was in Tanzania in 2005.... I had run RN Barnes through buffalo in the past and saw Zero effect, drill a hole, and no animal reactions....... In 2005 I shot 3 buffalo with the then new FN Barnes, with extreme effect, in all three cases the second shot hit them hard and decisive, with notable difference from anything I had seen in the past. This continues to this day with the #13 Solids, and the newer nose profile of the North Fork Solids...... I shot 31 buffalo in Australia alone last year, and used a lot of solids and there is an EXTREME difference in the two, so much so, there is zero comparison in that area...

Concerning Hand Gun Hunters, they have been ahead of rifleman for 50+ years in their bullet tech....since the days of the grand old master, Elmer and his Keith Style FN handgun bullets....... Why? Because they HAD TO BE AHEAD, since handguns in the ballistic comparisons to rifles are extremely challenged...... So they had to find a way for the handgun to be MORE EFFECTIVE, and they did. Rifleman have been ignorant for so long because of the "Ballistic advantage", "Tradition", "Nostalgia" and "Grandpa Moses" that we have lagged far behind in solid bullet tech until the last 10 years or so.... It will take many many years for hear say, tradition, and nostalgia to give way, but rest assured, it will...... and its going faster by the day, by every season that passes, and by every individual that is not clouded by other distractions........ Thank You HandGun Hunters, we are coming along, just a bit slow to the starting line............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
No reference to elephants, that I can see.

Here, let me spell it out for you...

Whitworth's relevant and inaccurate comment: "I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding."

No, FN solids do not beat RN solids on every front, and one use where a RN solid is a better choice is for a brain shot at an elephant.

There are other circumstances where a RN is better as well. Read my second to last post before this one.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Those brass solids and copper solids have a hard time stableizing in big bores compared to jacketed solids.I would shoot the brass solid at 100yds and check if it groups and its POI is OK and not extremely low before I take a chance on them.

I'll let others answer the 100 yard question. However, couple of weeks ago when shooting the brass solids at 50 yards I saw no issues whatsoever (I think .500 and .416 qualify as big bore). Basically three shots in one hole.

I also do not foresee shooting an animal requiring a solid (elephant, buffalo etc.) at a range longer than 50 yards, preferably much closer. If the shot is 100+ yards I'll get closer or pass.

Also, with no magnification at 100 yards one might confuse a cow with a bull so best to get closer.

Michael,

Stop playing stupid, you can read as well as I can.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
No reference to elephants, that I can see.

Here, let me spell it out for you...

Whitworth's relevant and inaccurate comment: "I can't understand the reluctance to accept the fact that flat-nose beats round nose on every front save for feeding."

No, FN solids do not beat RN solids on every front, and one use where a RN solid is a better choice is for a brain shot at an elephant.

There are other circumstances where a RN is better as well. Read my second to last post before this one.

JPK

If the reluctance isn't nostalgia then what is it?

We have almost 300 pages in the terminal performance thread proving where round noses fail, terminal unstable and leave a piss poor wound channel, seems pretty simple to me.

Oh and my favorite, rifles won't feed a flat nose,well then you need a better gunsmith.

I just got a report back about some buffalo taken with some Hornady round noses, and the results were described to me as a premature ejaculations version of the CEB solid