Introduced for big game in big bore calibers.
Norma opted for Woodleigh bullets - the RN profile.
I have already heard of one case of bullet over-expansion in a 500 Jeff.
Who could share with us his experience with this line of ammo on buffalo?
I am sure quite a few PH's have already tried the ammo since it was launched.

Thanks
Warrior

When a bullet over expands and fails, it means that the design envelope of the bullet was exceeded. The drag force on the bullet exceeded the material strength and construction methods used. This is easy to do: Increase the momentum / cross section of the bullet beyond what the bullet construction can stand. There are several ways to do this. Most common are: Increasing the weight of the bullet (it follows that sectional density increases), increasing the speed, or inadequate strength of construction.

quote:

Who could share with us his experience with this line of ammo on buffalo?

You are not paying attention Gerard.



Warrior

This here is a 535 gr Wdl Soft RN bullet, showing over expansion. I believe the latest offering is a 570 grain bullet, and if the jacket walls were not thickened, and the bullet was simply made longer, it stands to reason that it will over expand. Gregor Woods published a couple of years ago in the Man Magnum that Woodleigh did thicken the jackets on the 416 Rigby and 404 Jeff bullets, but not the 500 Jeff bullets.



The Rhino Solid Shank bullet is designed to arrests the expansion by way of its solid rear portion just like the TBBC's. Here is a 570 grain Rhino bullet retrieved from a buffalo shot at 25 yards ata MV of 2,245 fps on the left, on the right we have a 570gr Woodleigh FMJ. The Rhino bullet retaoned 91% of its weight and exapnded to 27.5 mm or 2.1 times original diameter.



Here is another account that made the press:



Warrior

Hi Warrior,

Is it Norma African PH ammunition or Woodleigh bullets in general that worries you?

I shot a buffalo a few years ago with my .404 Jeffery and African PH ammunition - 450 grain Woodleigh roundnose soft. The bull charged unprovoked and I shot him in the chest at a distance of about 6-7 meters. The weight retention was not impressive only 55%, BUT we found the bullet in the liver as it had went through the thick loose chest skin and muscles, smashed the ribs, hit the top of the hearth and penetrated some 1,2 meter of the bulls body length.

I don't know where in the killing the bullet failed, but i would love to have Woodleigh bullet's further strengthed and also have the protected point that Woodleigh make. At the same time during the killing of the buffalo, it was very pleasant to know that the Woodleigh solids I had in the magazine hit at the same point of impact as the softs.

Husky,

Your shot placement was superb - being the top part of the heart.

The PP bullet opens up a bit slower than the RN, and I suspect it would retain more weight.

I just think they have to beef up their jackets and to make them progressively thicker towards the base.

Warrior

funny, from what i've read on it, it's loaded too slow/soft
75% weigth retension is a good basis for a soft

Here is a picture of a Woodleigh 550 grain .458 RN soft point shot from a 458 Lott at 2,150 fps. It was recovered from a buffalo bull after going through the stomach, chest cavity, rib cage, shoulder bone and was found under the skin. It weighs 418 grains or 76% of original weight.



465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Here is a picture of a Woodleigh 550 grain .458 RN soft point shot from a 458 Lott at 2,150 fps. It was recovered from a buffalo bull after going through the stomach, chest cavity, rib cage, shoulder bone and was found under the skin. It weighs 418 grains or 76% of original weight.



465H&H

Thanks for the pic,465.Where any vitals hit? How did the buff react? I just recieved an order of 458, 550gr Woodleighs today.

quote:

I just think they have to beef up their jackets and to make them progressively thicker towards the base.

This is what Woodleigh did a couple of years ago, I would guess 5 or so years ago, to the 404 and 416 bullet to make them more durable. Here is a sectioned view illustrating how they have thickened the jacket walls. The PH range of bullets is heavier in all calibers, and my best guess is that they have not thickened the jackets yet again.



The Ken Stewart bonded bullet is more like the Bill Steigers bullet and has thicker jackets than the Woodleigh, and hence they do not flatten out to the extent that the Woodleigh bullet does. Here is a comparison showing the difference:



Warrior

With the PH-range Norma have opted for a heavier bullets-lower velocity solution. It's in co-operation with hunter/PH Kevin "Doctari" Robertson.
With increased bullet weight and lovered velocity one maintains the foot/pound energy, but increases what Robertson calls the "Impuls"
in all the big-bore loadings Norma have choosen a velocity between 640 and 700 m/s(2050 to 2300 f/s).
In this situation the somewhat soft Woodleigh RN will show good performance, according to Robertson.

Back here I've tested this idea on moose, and my 9,3x62(and x64) does quite well with the 320gr bullet instead of my usual 286 RN.

M

Norma also offer Swift A frames or Barnes TSX for those who prefer lighter/faster/tougher bullets. And you have a choice of either a heavy for cal woodleigh FMJ or a standard weight Barnes Super solid or Norma Monometal solid.

If you don't like woodleighs or Kevin's 'Heavy for caibre' concept..you can always shoot something else!

That said, the woodleigh is a great 'all round' bullet- soft enough to open properly on leopard and yest tough enough to spine a buffalo from either front or side on. and yes, I do think the Woodleighs could do with a stronger base, but...in reality the only 'failures' I have seen from woodleighs (.375 300grn ) were south bound shots fired at a North bound buffalo...which is precisely why many PH's load a soft on top and then solids in the rest of the mag...for such shots any bullet that expands enogh to be a good bullet for a 'regular' shot is going to have too little penetration...

Also, I have used Ken Stuarts soft nosed bullets for over ten years now in my 9,3 (and .404 - but I never shot anything with that rifle). They are great bullets...but typically exhibit much less accuracy than the woodleighs and each batch I have bought have been slightly different...cannelure in a different place, overall length not quite the same...not really an issue for a handloader but an impossible situation for a factory. I do know Norma tried the Rhino bullets before the Woodleighs for the PH line and were forced away because of exactly the same problems...

I like the heavy for caliber concept. But have avoided the new Norma ammo for doubles. How can they shoot properly in doubles not regulated for them? Has anyone tried them in their double? Accuracy? Point of aim?

Now Warrior can have a go at ridiculing Ganyana as well. This is what he does when logic fails him and he has to deal with contrary opinion.

Gerard,

You are jumping to conclusions again as usual.
I do not have to ridicule Ganyana, you are trying to do it to me.

Sorry, your technique of projection is not working.
It is clear to see how devious you are.

Every man is entitled to his opinion, and it is being shared here.
The invitation is clear ... people have to write in with their experiences.
Clearly you have none.

Most all the above postings stem from what other people expressed - not me.
So your feeble attempt above is rejected with disgust.

Warrior

Ganyana,

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Please ignore the paranoia of Gerard.
He has no contribution to make here.

Much appreciated.
Warrior

Here is a wetpack test done by Mike - comparing the new Hdy Soft (DGX) with the Wdl bullet.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...961027231#4961027231

Here is a 350 gr Wdl Soft on buffalo:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=230102247#230102247

Michael458 has given us this report - both on buffalo and showing a picture here retrieved from a wetpack.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...841046131#9841046131

Warrior

quote:

some weidos would equate this to driving a Ferrari,
Perhaps we should start a thread of Ferraris vs Maserati vs Porch vs whatever

Only a weido would call it a Porch. What kind of person does not know the difference between part of a house and a sportscar? My experience is that, those who do this, seriously lack attention to detail. As for who owns, who drives and who races what, there is such a thread, you have no idea and continue to look the fool, especially when you go into a frenzy of posting.

Apart from anecdotal hearsay and GoogleFu, how much experience do you have hunting cape buffalo?

Gerard,

I am not interested in your car stories, this thread is about Woodleigh bullets, and the invatation is for those that have experience ..... here is the invitation:

"Who could share with us his experience with this line of ammo on buffalo?"

You are not paying attention Gerard ... for the second time.

What part of the invitation do you not understand?

Paranoid again.



Warrior

There you two idiots go again ruining things for the rest of us.

STOP the childishness damn it

SSR

Cross L,

If you inspect the thread carefully, you will notice that I am sharing information from various angles and sources that I am bringing together in the form of a thread, and also that I have asked for people with experience on buffalo.

You will also notice that Gerard does not bring anything to the table, but bickering and pettiness to styfle the discussion, whilst he has the OPTION to contribute to the topic at hand, but no, he has to introduce CONFLICT by saying ....

"Now Warrior can have a go at ridiculing Ganyana as well"

You see ... HE has started the WAR in his MIND, but project it on to me, as if I will start the war with Ganyana. This is the psychic of of blame avoidance and projecting it on to others, you understand? This is how he stirs shit.

All Gerard has on his mind is to attack.

Warrior

Back to the topic, here is another account on live game:

Woodleigh 525gn RN SN bullets shot from a 505 Gibbs and recovered from pigs.
Both were angling shots which were stopped by the fighting shield on the far side of the pig.
MV was 2500 fps and the shots were between 30 and 50 yards.
Bullets retained 73% and 83% of their original weight, and both expanded to about 1.25 inches or 32 mm.
The bullets caused severe internal damage.



Warrior

Tommyhawk..the Norma stuff for doubles is standard weights, not heavy for cal for precisely the reason you mentioned. They used to offer 450grn in the 500/416 and 350grn in the .375FL but have come down to standard weight offerings. From Norma for my .375 FL I have woodleigh 300grn solids, 300grn Swift A frames and 300grn Oryx...I think that covers all situations nicely...and I can fire two rounds of each bullet type at 100m and have all 6 land in a 4" group...I can live with that

The current DG offerings from Norma for doubles are

9,3x74R - 286grn Swift A frame, 286grn Oryx (sadly no solid yet but I hear a rumour)
.375 FL - Woodleigh 300grn Solid, Woodleigh 300grn PP, 300grn Oryx (and swifts can be ordered)

500/416 410grn Woodleigh PP soft and solid
.470 NE 500grn Woodleigh soft and solid
.500 NE 570grn Woodleigh soft and solid

Having worked up loads for friends for their doubles I am well aware of just how difficult it is sometimes to get the softs and solids to shoot to the same point of aim. Rifles like the Krieghoff which have the barrels very close together and ones that have them almost parralell like the Blaser S2 (Yuk) are much more tollerant than many of the rifles built on larger actions with barrels tapered towards each other at the muzzle (like many old English doubles)...once you find the right load...happy days...finding the right load though.... And, it is a simple fact that the woodleighs are the easiest that I have used to get softs and solids to shoot together from a double rifle. And yes, they may be a little soft...but if you are going to shoot a buff up the arse, use the solid in the left barrel and keep the soft in the right for more usual angles.

quote:

What kind of person does not know the difference between part of a house and a sportscar?

Sorry Chris but that was actually quite funny.

I have used woodleighs 300grain .333cal bullets on african game. Work they do allright, but the bullets we recovered were shatted.

I could only wish for a little thicker jacket.

Right now Woodleigh is the only manufacture of .333Jeffery bullets .

quote:

Woodleigh is the only manufacture of .333Jeffery bullets

We can change that, Jens ...

Jens,
GSC has had one available since 2009. Contact our distributor in Denmark.

Cross L,
Warrior asked in his opening post: "I have already heard of one case of bullet over-expansion in a 500 Jeff."

I replied with a technical answer based on my experience as a designer and manufacturer and based on many trials done for me, by professional hunters, on cape buffalo: "When a bullet over expands and fails, it means....."

Warrior then insulted with a picture and: "You are not paying attention Gerard."
He then posts: "The Rhino Solid Shank bullet is designed to arrests the expansion by...." and "The Ken Stewart bonded bullet is more like...."

He is contradicted by Ganyana and I pointed out the fact by posting: "Now Warrior can have a go at ridiculing Ganyana as well. This is what he does when logic fails him and he has to deal with contrary opinion."

Warrior replies with: "You are jumping to conclusions again as usual." "It is clear to see how devious you are." "people have to write in with their experiences. Clearly you have none." "So your feeble attempt above is rejected with disgust." "Please ignore the paranoia of Gerard. He has no contribution to make here."

I replied: "Apart from anecdotal hearsay and GoogleFu, how much experience do you have hunting cape buffalo?"

For that you call me an idiot. Warrior invites input on his topic and, for three days my reply and his ridicule is the only reaction. Do you regard my first input as irrelevant or off topic? Do you see through Warrior's lie that I have not contributed on topic before he attacked and insulted me. If you do, you are blind and have no comprehension. Have a good look at who is spoiling the forum for whom and keep your insulting comments to the appropriate place. You are the one who should grow up and learn to read.

quote:

"Who could share with us his experience with this line of ammo on buffalo?"

You are not paying attention Gerard ... for the second time.

What part of the invitation do you not understand?

Gerard,

Your bullet manufacturing experience of mono-metal bullets does not give you EXPERIENCE with WOODLEIGH bullets shooting BUFFALO. Now read slowly and concentrate .... it is shooting bullets at buffalo, not making them in a factory .... it is a Woodleigh Soft bullet in addition. Then I expect you to provide photos to illustrate your point.

Let go, you have nothing !!!

Please don't put another spin on it, it is not helping.



Warrior

quote:

Your bullet manufacturing experience of mono-metal bullets does not give you EXPERIENCE with WOODLEIGH bullets shooting BUFFALO.

Neither does you anecdotal hearsay and your GoogleFu.

quote:

Now read slowly and concentrate .... it is shooting bullets at buffalo

Of which I have received much feedback from professional tests with a variety of products we asked for. Considerably more than what you will do in your lifetime.

quote:

not making them in a factory

Which I have been doing for the last 20 years and which includes design and comparative testing of most other makes in the field and on the range.

quote:

.... it is a Woodleigh Soft bullet in addition. Then I expect you to provide photos to illustrate your point.

So, do you think we do not know what competitive products are about? Do you think we sit here in isolation and take no note of what others are doing? I am not the pissant amateur, wannabe ballistic expert that you are. Right now I have 10 different products from six different manufacturers on my loading bench that have been evaluated recently.

quote:

Let go, you have nothing !!!

You figure Google is everything? You are mistaken and your cons are showing. You should try to learn something sometime.

Apart from anecdotal hearsay and GoogleFu, how much experience do you have hunting cape buffalo?[/QUOTE]

So, Lance Corporeal Warrior, aside from your undeniable talent (from amongst very few others, apparently) for ridiculing others, just how much experience do YOU reaaly have with buffalo?

I cannot figure out if you are worrying about the ammo in question or merely trying to stir up a shit storm.

STOP the personal attacks - most people who post on this site is beyond that and they don't contribute a thing to the common good. Your personal vendetta with one or two other members is getting tired as well.

Been paying attention to all the questions thrown in your direction, have you, sunshine?

Gerard,

If you cannot post anything about Woodleigh bullets, and you have had ample time by now, it just simply proves that you have nothing to add of value. With all your so-called research, we still have nothing on Woodleigh bullets from you. So please stop your big-talk and the all the other rubbish that you spew.

This was the invatation Gerard ... "Who could share with us his experience with this line of ammo on buffalo?" It is clear you have nothing to share. That is the long and the short of it.



Warrior

500N,

Thanks for your reasoned posting - it is an ode to SD !!!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...201095351#6201095351

Warrior

Ganyana,
Thanks for the info. I looked them over at SCI when they came out. Read through their brochure and threw it out. Glad they went back to standard bullet weights in double rifle calibers. In general Norma makes good stuff

375 H&H with 350 data from woodleigh

However, for your interest, here are some loads we worked up during testing of the 350 grain SN RN and PP.

350gr RN -

68 grains H4350 Federal 215 primer 2300 fps
" " 70 grains " " " " 2345 fps
" " 72 grains " " " " 2363 fps
" " 74 grains " " " " 2375 fps

350 grain PP -

72 grains H4350 Federal 215 primer 2380 fps
" " " 73 grains " " " " 2250 fps

H414 is similar burning rate to H4350, so your 70 grains load should give about 2345 fps.

Regards,
Geoff McDonald.
WOODLEIGH BULLETS

.375 350gr RN at 2370 f/s sounds like good medicine

m

Warrior dictates:

quote:

If you cannot post anything about Woodleigh bullets, and you have had ample time by now, it just simply proves that you have nothing to add of value.

Jeffeosso, Shootaway, Tommyhawk, Cross L, Macifej and jvw375, your posts are irrelevant to the topic. It beats me why Warrior insists that only my post is irrelevant and not yours, but take heed, you may be ridiculed at some point for transgressing the paramaters set by Warrior:
1. Only pro SD post are allowed here.
2. You have to agree that Woodleigh is way too soft.
3. You have to agree that Rhino and Stewart bullets are just the ticket. Watch it Ganyana, you are on thin ice.
4. Don't ask Warrior questions that cannot be Googled. They will not be answered because he does not know.

Gerard,

Pathetic post !!!
Praat jy met my?



Warrior

Some more photos of Woodleigh's retrieved:

a) On the left - ex wetpack @ 2,350 fps MV at 50 yds.

For a .458 bullet (11.63 mm) to expand to 1.5" or 38.1 mm amounts to 3.3 times original diameter

b) On the right - ex game @ 2,450 MV fps at 130/140 yds.

The bullets coming out of game look almost like a thimble with their insides out.
Given the distance of some 130 to 140 yards, when the velocity at range has reduced,
we are still getting over expansion on kudu and impala, and it begs the question how
it would stand up against buffalo where deeper penetration is required.

My humble opinion is that any expansion over 2.5 times would start to impair deep penetration.
Perhaps even 2.6 times can go, but 3.3 times would become a serious limitation even on side-on shots.

But let us hear from the buffalo hunters - is the bullet too soft or not?



Warrior

quote:

2. You have to agree that Woodleigh is way too soft.