What is the consensus on using Barnes/North Fork/GS banded mono metal solids in double rifles? I notice that Barnes offers these in .470 cal now at a very attractive price...

Brett

A consensus...doubtful!

I have a Merkel 470 NE purchased last Feb. I started out playing with the Barnes Banded Solids, North Fork Cup Points, Woodleigh Softs, and Barnes TSX all 500 grain bullets. No experience with GS bullets.

I read here and in articles that some manufacturers of DR will not warrenty their DR when mono-metal bullets are used...I think Chapius is one but not sure.

Before I started I checked with Merkel/GSI and they advised if bullet manufactuer says it is ok, then they are ok with them...sounds sort of like a circle jerk...

Some of what I have read here suggest staying away from mono-metal bullets with vintage DR...if I owned a vintage DR I would probably stay away from mono-metal bullets. Why take the chance! However, if I were to try mono-metals with a vintage DR, I would try the North Forks first.

I been using 110 grains (starting load 108 grains) of H4831sc with the Barnes Banded Solid, North Fork Cup Point, and Woodleigh Soft all shoot POA at 50 yds and out to 100 yards. Velocity range from just over 2100 fps to 2170fps depending on the type of bullet. Lowest with the Woodleigh Softs, then Barnes Banded, highest velocity with the Cup Points. Four shot groupings, at 50 yards, were exceptional for DR, using the H4831sc load.

I been using the North Fork Cup's more than the others...good bullet! I think Mike at North Fork is going to do some pressure testing with his 470 Cup Points and other bullets, at least I hope so, possibly that would give us all a bit more information.

That's my take!

Thanks JJS,

Word is that the bands help reduce pressure. I wonder if anyone has actually measured pressures with banded bullets???

Brett

I haven’t tried them in .470(don't have one, YET) but in .375 and .458 they have the same POI under 200 yards that the TSX version has in bullets of equal weight. I used a 450 gr. Banded Solid in my .450 Marlin to take a nice Wild Boar that weighted just under 300 lbs. Shot was facing me at 190 yards and the bullet went the full length and exited four inches under the tail. Lawdog

The Barnes are not true driving band solids. 500 Grs. is the one to ask, he has done some extensive reloading with them. He actually has an article published, but the link won't pull it up.

Brett:

I have not seen any "published" data on pressure testing banded, grooved, etc bullets.

I did speak with Barnes (you may want to give them a call) they advised using the old Solid loading data with the Banded Solid...If I remember correctly, Barnes noted somewhat less pressure with the Banded Solid vs their Round Nose Solid but not much??? but possibly they have done more testing since I spoke with them...

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
I have not seen any "published" data on pressure testing banded, grooved, etc bullets.

NorthFork is only mono-metal maker (that i know of) working on pressure data for their banded bullets. I believe Mike is putting together some tests for his 470s (with real pressure barrel and measuring equipment.)

Not sure when Mike is getting to this, but do expect to see some "Real" data come available soon.

Thanks guys, I just don't want to pop the rib off my double...

Brett

new_guy:

I made a note of Mike's potential testing in my initial post...Not sure where he is on it...I offered the use of my dies and others items he may need for testing ie bullet, etc for comparison...I look forward to seeing Mike's results.

Brett, what make, model of 470 NE do you have? I should say, A-square does have some pressure data in their reloading manual for 470 NE but specific to their bullet and powder combinations....it may prove somewhat useful to you..

jjs - sorry, i overlooked that. I only know about it b/c I sent him some factory Federal 470s to use for standardizing the tests.

jjs,

It's a William Douglas. Made in late 1980's and imported by Cape Outfitters.

Monometal solids have caused problems even in new doubles. A poster here had the ribs come loose on his Chappis 9.3X92...

Brett

It depends more on the material of the monometal solide than whether grooved, banded or others.

Brass has more tendency to wear barrels than soft copper, which is used by some manufacturers.

Norbert,

Which momometal solids do you recommend for use in a double rifle??

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
What is the consensus on using Barnes/North Fork/GS banded mono metal solids in double rifles? I notice that Barnes offers these in .470 cal now at a very attractive price...

Brett

1. I have used GS Custom and Bridger driving band solids in a double with excellent accuracy and regulation, and low pressure. There are less pressure signs than with a Woodleigh solid.

2. I would not use Barnes banded solids in a double because the Barnes bands are huge and will not give way easily like GS Custom or Bridger, meaning that the barrel will have to flex which is not a good thing in a double.

Also keep in mind that the prejudice against monometal solids should not be extended to true driving band solids (Bridger, GS Custom, North Fork) as true driving band solids are much kinder to a rifle barrel than a Woodleigh solid. Chapuis' blanket prohibition against all monometal solids regardless of design is borne of ignorance.

The Chapuis ban is like all too much legislation, in that too much is caught in the net.

I wonder how Chapuis feel about Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solids? Not monometal, but they do have quite a thick bronze "jacket." Anyone know?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Norbert,

Which momometal solids do you recommend for use in a double rifle??

Brett

All bullets from really soft copper. Brass (Barnes, Dzombo) of unknown composition, I would be cautious. Brass additional may show abrasive properties.

Norbert

What do you mean by "really soft" copper? Copper comes in grades of hardness; 1/4 hard, 1/2 hard, full hard, spring hard, super spring hard, etc. If a solid is any softer than full hard, there is no hope that it would supply the performance that a solid is purchased to do in the first place. Yes, copper is 'softer" than the brasses or bronzes in the same condition but a solid with any grade of anneal wouldn't be worth squat. Been there, done that.

Mike,

Thanks for posting here!! Would you recommend the use of your banded solids in double rifles?

Will you have some .475in diameter flat point banded solids in available sometime soon?

Have you done pressure tests comparing banded to non-banded monometal solids???

Best regards;
Brett

Oh boy, I never have learned to keep my mouth shut

Yes, I hope to have some of everything, in the solids, available by Dallas. That is what I am working on now.

Yes, I will be doing pressure tests for load and comparison purposes. I have not received the 470 barrel yet but I'm proceeding with other calibers that I do have barrels for. I don't expect any large differences between calibers.

Are they safe in ALL doubles. That I do not know....and may never know. There are just too many varibles, especially with the older guns. If you are looking for a guarantee, I don't think you will get one from any manufacturer.

Bullets with accomodations for displacing material will certainly be better than those without, and the extent of the success of the design will vary in degrees, as the design varies.

There is more to the double/mono controversy than just pressure. I would think it has more to do with how the bullet yields to the barrel or, more to the point (and heaven forbid), how the barrel yields to the bullet.

Those of you that have followed my slow progress know of my intention of constructing a method of gauging the radial stresses imparted to a barrel due to bullet passage. I have not had chance to manufacture such a device but the drawings are ready and just waiting for time and opportunity (scarce comodities). Hopefully I can do that with the 470.

Mike

NFMike,
Here is a half hard copper drive band solid that was recovered from the earth after fully penetrating a downed elephant. Unfired bullet is next to it. Making a solid from any material harder than this, will only give more wear on the barrel.



Edited to add:
Hi there Mike, didn't realise you are Mike of North Fork fame. Good to see you here.

Mike,

Howdy & Merry Christmas, glad to see you posting!

Bret & other folks,

A carping note on terminology. The North Fork and the Barnes TSX are grooved bullets. I have some GS in the Pattern Room (i.e. the garage), but I am too lazy to go find them just now. Don't know about the Bridger.

A driving band is larger in diameter than the body of the bullet. Some name them "bourillet", especially on artillery shells.

jim

Only in the soft points Jim, not the solids.

Mike,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The groves (sorry Jim) make sense to me in that they will probably yield to the barrel and therefore reduce stress on the barrel as compared to a non-groved monometal solid (or perhaps even a lead bullet). It would be great to see some experimental results, however as the proof is always in the pudding so to say.

Did you see the article a few months ago in the DGJ where Sherman Bell put strain gauges on the breach area AND IN THE AREA OF THE FOREND of a "test barrel" he made out of a mauser .450? He was trying to determin differences in the pressure curve at the breach and in the area near the forend between black, nitro and mixed loads. Really good stuff, it would be great to do that with groved vs. non-groved monos and lead core standard bullets.

I for one would pitch in a few bucks for such work...

All the best;
Brett

Brett

No I did not see that. If you can get me a volume and issue number, I'll order one.

Glad to see the test done. One less I have to do.

I agree that tests to determine the reaction of different styles will tell us much but we have to be careful to not muddy the waters with the procedure. IMO, the hoop stress test needs to be seperate and in addition to any pressure tests. In a strain gage system, you are measuring the movement of the barrel due to internal stresses. The barrel isn't going to know and the system is not going to tell you exactly what caused those stresses. We have to keep the stress of the powder gases and the stresses of bullet passage distinct from one another, to get the full story.

If you wish to contribute to the tests, the best way is to send some samples of bullets you wish tested. If you or anyone else wished to do so, contact me off line so that there are no duplications.

Mike,

I will look up the article when I get home. If you don't have them I would like to send you Wodleagh soft and solid and Trophy Bonded bullets. Please PM me with delivery infomation if you would like to.

Best regards;
Brett

FYI, in follow up to my question above, I contacted Chapuis directly.

They have confirmed with me today by email that the .470 NE Federal TB Sledgehammer factory loading is safe for use in their .470 double rifles, although they cannot say whether it will regulate.

Chapuis use the Federal loading with the 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore soft to regulate their .470 doubles at the factory.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:

Yes, I hope to have some of everything, in the solids, available by Dallas. That is what I am working on now.

Mike

Hi Mike! If you are coming to Dallas, and you have your .470 cup point bullets done by then, I'd like to have a couple of boxes of them, and a couple of boxes of your 9.3 cup points as well. I'll pick them up from you at Dallas! Looking forward to seeing you there!

Folks, the NF solids are the only mono-metel bullet I will use in my double rifles, I believe the steel jacketed Woodliegh is harder to engrave the rifleing on it, then the North Fork. I will not use the Barnes banded solids in my doubles, and certainly not the ungrouved super solids, even in a brand new double! I may be wrong, and I know that some have gotten by with useing them, but I will not twke the chance with anything but the NF pressure banded copper solids!

All of the postings here are quite dated can anyone tell me what the 2010 opinion is on using Barnes Bullets in Double rifles. I understand there was something posted here somewhere which convinced a friend of mine they were very detremental to the health of double rifle barrles. I have a 500 NE a Hambrusch of Ferlach and would hate to be doing anything bad for the gun unkowingly. I am also having trouble finding any 500NE bullets to purchase
Anyone help me ther Midway doesn't carry this calibre any more for some reason, although i purchased some from them months ago this calibre is no longer listed on their site.

Ambrose,

Huntingtons should have 500NE bullets in stock. I buy quite a bit from them and they are always a pleasure to deal with.

http://www.huntingtons.com/bullets.html


As far as what bullets are safe, not much has changed since 2005, at least in opinions. In reality Hornady released their new bullets and Woodleigh has a new line of bullets that are very different than their traditional bullets.

I shoot Woodleigh, Hornady DGS & DGX, and North Forks in my doubles. Will not use the Barnes.

That being said I read an article in African Hunter by Cal Pappas in which he felt it was fine to shoot Barnes solids in his vintage double. Cal posts on here so maybe he can weigh in.

Also Gerard and Extremist458 have experience with the GS Customs so I am sure they can speak to that bullet's performance in doubles.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents here for whatever it is worth and it may be worth just that!

First, Barnes makes banded solids in lots of double rifle calibers (.375, .450/400, .416, .470, .500, and .577). This is good company and I am sure that the thought occurred to them as to what would happen if one of their bullets damaged a very expensive double so I am guessing that they tested them before they put them on the market. In fact, in their load manual, they specifically state that they made the banded solids in such a manner as to eliminate concerns about damaging fine double-rifle barrels. While I know that doubles are different, many, many Barnes banded solids have been fired in bolt rifles without causing any damage. They are made from a copper/zinc allow which is softer than the steel in your barrel, right?

Now, all that being said, I would not use a homogenous bullet of any kind in a VINTAGE double. I just wouldn't risk it in a gun that was manufactured oh so many years ago.

With respect to a new double with modern steel barrels, I would suggest that you NOT shoot a steady diet of ANY solid bullet. Shoot soft points for practice and make sure your solids are shooting to the same POI for your hunt. I have taken to shooting a lot of Hawk bullets at the range BECAUSE they are soft and are a lot easier on an expensive set of barrels. I would be equally concerned about shooting the copper clad steel Dangerous Game bullets made by Hornady as I would with any solid bullet.

I have just bought a box of banded solids for my .470 and I intend to shoot a few to work up a load. However, once I get that sorted out, I plan on shooting my conventional jacketed bullets at the range, Woodleighs softs for hunting and if I can get the banded solids shooting to the same point of impact, using the banded solids for a solid on a hunt. I will let you know how they shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I just wanted to throw in my two cents here for whatever it is worth and it may be worth just that!

First, Barnes makes banded solids in lots of double rifle calibers (.450/400, .470, .500, and .577). This is good company and I am sure that the thought occurred to them as to what would happen if one of their bullets damaged a very expensive double so I am guessing that they tested them before they put them on the market. In fact, in their load manual, they specifically state that they made the banded solids in such a manner as to eliminate concerns about damaging find double-rifle barrels. They are made from a copper/zinc allow which is softer than the steel in your barrel, right?

Now, all that being said, I would not use a homogenous bullet of any kind in a VINTAGE double. I just wouldn't risk it in a gun that was manufactured oh so many years ago.

With respect to a new double with modern steel barrels, I would suggest that you NOT shoot a steady diet of ANY solid bullet. Shoot soft points for practice and make sure your solids are shooting to the same POI for your hunt. I have taken to shooting a lot of Hawk bullets at the range BECAUSE they are soft and are a lot easier on an expensive set of barrels. I would be equally concerned about shooting the copper clad steel Dangerous Game bullets made by Hornady as I would with any solid bullet.

I have just bought a box of banded solids for my .470 and I intend to shoot a few to work up a load. However, once I get that sorted out, I plan on shooting my conventional jacketed bullets at the range, Woodleighs softs for hunting and if I can get the banded solids shooting to the same point of impact, using the banded solids for as a solid on a hunt. I will let you know how they shoot.

With the excellent Hornady DGS, North Fork and GS Custom solids available, why take a chance with the Barnes? I certainly won't.
465H&H

465 H&H:

I guess I gravitated to the Barnes bullets (as opposed to the NF or GS bullets) because they are more readily available.

When I first bought my .470, I bought a box of Hornady DGX bullets and shot them because my dealer had a box and I figured I could get the cases. I would not shoot them on a regular basis because they are made of STEEL.. I just have concerns about shooting a steady diet of steel bullets through my double but again, you do what makes sense to you.

Steel jacketed softs will have lower pressure than Mono-metal solids of the Barnes type. I don't care for the DGX because it is steel jacketed and steel tends to shatter compared to gilding metal jackets that tear and bend.

465H&H

quote:

Brass additional may show abrasive properties.

You have data to support this ...??

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Steel jacketed softs will have lower pressure than Mono-metal solids of the Barnes type. I don't care for the DGX because it is steel jacketed and steel tends to shatter compared to gilding metal jackets that tear and bend.

465H&H

You do understand that Hornady's Dangerous Game Expanding bullet as well as their Dangerous Game Solid bullet have steel jackets, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Brass additional may show abrasive properties.

You have data to support this ...??

Mac,

He may not respond, his last post was December of 2005.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
With the excellent Hornady DGS, North Fork and GS Custom solids available, why take a chance with the Barnes? I certainly won't.
465H&H

Ditto's

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Steel jacketed softs will have lower pressure than Mono-metal solids of the Barnes type.

465H&H

May be a redundant question, but do you have data to support this?

If you ask Barnes, they will tell you they shoot lower pressures than traditional bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Steel jacketed softs will have lower pressure than Mono-metal solids of the Barnes type. I don't care for the DGX because it is steel jacketed and steel tends to shatter compared to gilding metal jackets that tear and bend.

465H&H

You do understand that Hornady's Dangerous Game Expanding bullet as well as their Dangerous Game Solid bullet have steel jackets, right?

Of course I understand that. What I am refering to is the jacket on the soft point shattering instead of tearing back and forming a mushroom on penetration in animals. I am not concerened about pressure in a double from the steel jackets as they will squeeze down as they enter the rifling. Still driving band solids or cup and core softs will have the least pressure IMO.

465H&H

465H&H:

Perhaps you are correct but I don't think that your gun is squeezing down your steel jacketed solid. On the Hornady bullet, the steel jacket is undersized and clad with copper. Ideally, none of that steel comes in contact with the barrel and hopefully, only the softer copper is displaced by the lands as the bullet travels down the barrel. Isn't that correct?