They have a second lug on the barrel that is about 1 inch forward of the action and the action recoil lug and barrel lug are epoxied bedded.

They have cross bolts both front and rear but they are not exposed. They also have a metal rod that goes through the wrist of the stock.

With their vertical stack magazine they are probably one of the few factory big bores that are ready to go as they come out of the box.

Mike

Thanks Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
I have a .30-378 & .460 but I'm thinking I need a custom .378. The Unicorn Horns in your area are contaminated with Strontium 90 so best use them as a signal instrument for calling in Sasquatches.

Ahhh, but I have activated carbon 18 bullets, that pulls out any Strontium isotopes that may be present. For calling Sasquatches, I come to find the best call is re-runs of the Rosie O'donnel show.

John

The subjective pros and cons of Weatherbys aside as they undeniably perform as well as any other device in the hands of man, I'm going to stick my neck out and ask the question again in hopes that there's a simple, specific, and objective reason, "What is the reason for CRF superiority?"

It seems when Mauser went to this design on the 98, rifle owners branched into two factions and it's difficult to separate the facts from emotion.

Thanks for any informed remarks.

P.S. I'd probably shoot Weatherby's but I don't like the style.

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
The subjective pros and cons of Weatherbys aside as they undeniably perform as well as any other device in the hands of man, I'm going to stick my neck out and ask the question again in hopes that there's a simple, specific, and objective reason, "What is the reason for CRF superiority?"

It seems when Mauser went to this design on the 98, rifle owners branched into two factions and it's difficult to separate the facts from emotion.

Thanks for any informed remarks.

P.S. I'd probably shoot Weatherby's but I don't like the style.

Oh, here is some food for thought, all modern mauser actions are conspicuously absent of CRF. Truthfully, the best reason to have a CRF is that it is quieter when loading cartridges from the magazine. Its biggest downfall is that you can only load it from the magazine. The biggest reason for the claw extractor was the inability to machine the bolt to accept what we call modern extractors.

Either will work, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. It's so much of a non issue that only a few fret over it.

I own both CRF and Non CRF rifles and can say I shoot both equally.

John

Agreed! I'm writing a sci-fi/horror screenplay as we speak. Treatment - Mad Scientist on a grant from the department of Housing and Urban Development breeds Rosie O'Donnell and Jay Leno thereby producing a new race of Buffalo headed monsters intended for sniffing out Sasquatches in dense cover. I'll bring my .460.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Agreed! I'm writing a sci-fi/horror screenplay as we speak. Treatment - Mad Scientist on a grant from the department of Housing and Urban Development breeds Rosie O'Donnell and Jay Leno thereby producing a new race of Buffalo headed monsters intended for sniffing out Sasquatches in dense cover. I'll bring my .460.

On a serious note, I think its tim we bang on Ed Weatherby's door and tell him since the advent of the 700 nitro express, they need to up the ante a bit, something in a 500 should do nicely, I mean, who wouldn't like a 500 Weatherby mag!!!! Of course, I am clinically insane, my wife has told me, and I believe her, as well as the invisible people!

John

I think Ed's response is likely to be something along the lines of "Why?" Would be fun to see a totally new and larger Weatherby case. One of us would need to see if the dimensions work out. Magazine box, action length, bolt facce, etc. I nominate you John to do the layout. I believe I have enough on my plate here:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
I think Ed's response is likely to be something along the lines of "Why?" Would be fun to see a totally new and larger Weatherby case. One of us would need to see if the dimensions work out. Magazine box, action length, bolt facce, etc. I nominate you John to do the layout. I believe I have enough on my plate here:

Hmm 2 bore black powder... Sure, it makes one hell of a kick, but can you put it into a bolt action repeater.

John

Shhhhh..........!! Don't tell anyone but it's already done! Rebated Rimless case design to go with rimmed design you see here. News at 11:00.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
JAL,

Do me a favor and define "mishandled". Would this include anything other than slowly, carefully, steadily working the action, preferably from a machine rest or a bench with sand bags (I guess your bonnet could substitute for a bench)?

Sorry for the delay, but "mishandled" relating to bolt action rifles would be any interruption to the "complicated and difficult" (apparently) movement of the bolt ie handle full up, handle full back, handle full forward, handle full down.
Apparently the CFR panic merchants think it is difficult as they probably have trouble with those big clumbsy mauser bolts binding on the way forward.

quote:

Originally posted by bearhunter762:
would someone give me an example of a WW1 or WW2 bolt action service rifle that WAS NOT CRF?

Um, gee, and I thought the S.M.L.E. was a PF.
Maybe it was a controlled PF ??
And it even had a rimmed cartridge. Now how did one load a charger so that the second charger slipped the rim in front of the 5th cartridge. (Even Herr Mauser wasn't game to try that one on.)

So... CRF was primarily a result of contemporary manufacturing limitations?

And not that it's a bad design as a properly executed example, operated properly works just fine - as does any such PF.

Never gave the Weatherby construction of their .460's much thought but that's a strong argument WbyPwr has for a properly made "off the shelf" stomper. Stories of damage to the shooter abound but never heard of a Wby built .460 coming apart. Sounds like they did their homework on rifle design.

Speaking of design, are Kalishnakovs PF?

quote:

Originally posted by PWS:
So... CRF was primarily a result of contemporary manufacturing limitations?

And not that it's a bad design as a properly executed example, operated properly works just fine - as does any such PF.

Never gave the Weatherby construction of their .460's much thought but that's a strong argument WbyPwr has for a properly made "off the shelf" stomper. Stories of damage to the shooter abound but never heard of a Wby built .460 coming apart. Sounds like they did their homework on rifle design.

Speaking of design, are Kalishnakovs PF?

There are those that don't like Weatherby's for what ever reason, but most have to respect the action's strength.

As far as Kalashnikovs, they are PF. So are the stoner's (to include M16's), the M14, the M1 Garand, Browning M2 machine gun, M60, and Saw M249 (of course, I am not sure how you would CF a belt fed gun. Add to the venerable PF lineup the HK 91 and 93, SP89, FN FAL, Steyer AUG, and that funky looking thing the British are using these days. Accuracy Intl use PF on the Brits Sniper rifles, Remington used PF on the US Sniper rifles.

Well I could ramble on for days, but the 03 Sprigfield was the most modern CRF service rifle I can think of. But, the best features of the Mod 98 are often ignored, the third locking lug on the magnum actions and the striker locking saftey. Of course, I could start a war on the goofy functionality of the flip up wing safety.

But of course, I have heard buffalo say that they will gore anyone who sets foot in Africa without a CRF rifle and will lay down to a 30-06 shot from a proper rifle. ut your mileage may vary.

John

I don't think CRF would work to well for a semi auto or auto as the bolt closes too fast and remember that the case rim has to slide under the extractor and do it at an angle.

CRF is also far more dependent on case rim and extractor groove dimensions and condition.

Mike

Exactly! How many CFR machine guns are there? I am a Mauser fan, no doubt but I get really tired of arguing about the inferiority of non-CFR rifles. I have a Sauer 200 with a single stack magazine that I believe is the most positive feeding rifle I own, bar none. Upside down, right side up, in the space shuttle during launch or in John Force's funny car backwards, I have no doubt it will feed.

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
I don't think CRF would work to well for a semi auto or auto as the bolt closes too fast and remember that the case rim has to slide under the extractor and do it at an angle.

CRF is also far more dependent on case rim and extractor groove dimensions and condition.

Mike

I am not sure if it was the Swiss or the Swedes, but one of the two countries had made a conversion for their bolt rifles to run semi auto. I am not sure why they did it, but I remember seeing the drawings for the conversion. I think the magazine capacity and the awkardness led to the demise of the project. If I remember the rifles were CRF Mausers.

John

/

Thanks, ALF, for sharing. Would you have any more info about Mausers formula for proper magazine sizing?

Good to see ALF is back from Africa.
Bent: Rubberband three cartridges together and measure or use the "Mauser Cosine Law" to calculate the box dimensions. Then size the box specifically for each cartridge. That is the basic premise. What other fine tuning of this are you looking for?

The .375 Weatherby Magnum has .3700" of freebore length, and freebore diameter is .3756".

The 500 Weatherby was done long ago and is featured on the 500 Mbogo thread.

Weatherby was the first to use fiberglass stocks, or any synthetics, on mass produced factory rifles, starting with the McMillan stock, like on my .340 WbyMag Mark V Fibermark, in 1985. I jumped on that one soon as it showed up at Boondock Sporting Goods in Eagle River, AK.

All the rest have copied Weatherby ever since.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Sorry but I could not sit on my hands any longer!

Mauser and the origens of the CRF has to be seen in context of time:

Very good points! Truthfully, though, militaries still use bolt guns, although not as a general issue item and they seem fit not to use a CRF action. I don't think anyone would argue the strong points of CRF, especially in a historical content, but my point is and has always been that CRF in a hunting rifle is not a be all end all. CRF will not cure anything that practice won't. A well functioning rifle of any design, when properly broken in and practiced with will not be a liability if PF or CRF. Mausers were and still are a favorible action because of their strengths, but, as you have pointed out, their strengths extend beyond CRF, which is something I pointed out earlier.

John

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

The 500 Weatherby was done long ago and is featured on the 500 Mbogo thread.

Like the 338-378KT, I think it is time they officially adobt and chamber 500 Weatherby rifles....

John

The FN 30-11 is a military Sniper rifle that some authorities consider the best in the world. It uses the FN CRF action.

Go to a safari show and look for custom bolt rifles, look at the safari club commisioned rifle, look for DGR's, and price rifles. The Double rifle and the CRF bolt rifle are still what the market puts a premium on.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
The FN 30-11 is a military Sniper rifle that some authorities consider the best in the world. It uses the FN CRF action.

Go to a safari show and look for custom bolt rifles, look at the safari club commisioned rifle, look for DGR's, and price rifles. The Double rifle and the CRF bolt rifle are still what the market puts a premium on.

The highest premium is on Colt SAA! Not the best judge of what a DGR should be! Truly if I was rich and couldn't practice, I would reccomend a Double. Again, if you feel you need a CRF, by all means, get a CRF!

BBBH,

I don't know which one of the collectiblies has the highest return on capital employed. My comment was on market performance not technical merit. Easy to check market conditions.

By all means get whatever you want!!

quote:

Like the 338-378KT, I think it is time they officially adobt and chamber 500 Weatherby rifles....

John

John,

I think a 500 Wby is unlikely, although it would be easy for them do since the 460 barrel contour and stock would be OK.

Wby is now very main stream and these days a 500 Wby would not be like the 460 when it was introduced. We now have the 505 Gbbs via CZ and of course the 700 Nitro. The 700 Nitro factory ballistics probably exceed what would be claimed for a 500 Wby.

The 460 will be much faster as apart from a bigger case capacity for the bore size a smaller bore also allows you to use bullets of lower sectional density.

The 460 is also very entrenched as the "most powerful" in the mind of the average shooter. I think introduction of a 500 Wby would reveal that these days the 460 is only at the low end of the big bangers.

Having said all of that my predictions on guns (and election results) have been about as close to 100% wrong as you can get

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:

quote:

Like the 338-378KT, I think it is time they officially adobt and chamber 500 Weatherby rifles....

John

John,

I think a 500 Wby is unlikely, although it would be easy for them do since the 460 barrel contour and stock would be OK.

Wby is now very main stream and these days a 500 Wby would not be like the 460 when it was introduced. We now have the 505 Gbbs via CZ and of course the 700 Nitro. The 700 Nitro factory ballistics probably exceed what would be claimed for a 500 Wby.

The 460 will be much faster as apart from a bigger case capacity for the bore size a smaller bore also allows you to use bullets of lower sectional density.

The 460 is also very entrenched as the "most powerful" in the mind of the average shooter. I think introduction of a 500 Wby would reveal that these days the 460 is only at the low end of the big bangers.

Having said all of that my predictions on guns (and election results) have been about as close to 100% wrong as you can get

Mike

Don't feel bad, I am still pondering why Hillary is running (apart from the millions of campaign contributions coming in). I think your right on how Ed and friends will go, but you never know. The 460 is still up there, but like the 44 mag, the reign at the top has dwindled. I am not sure If the bees will be willing to put money into a new case design, but to meet the Weatherby tradition, the would have to be king of the 500 class as we know it today.

I have thought of the CZ in 505 Gibbs, but I have no practical use for it, not being a PH in the land of elephant and rhinos. But, I do feel i could knock the crap out of any irate pig or bear, and after all, sometimes practicallity is just too impractical.

John

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
3. controlled feeding to prevent short stroke double feeding, apparently a huge problem in the thick of battle

Ok, I just can't imagine how the poms and us got thru the wars, with all this short shucking and presumed jamming of the SMLE. Especially when reports from the Germans or Turks or someone thought the fast fireing of the SMLE's were some sort of machine gun.

And then there were the lines of our soldiers, blinded and mamed by their own rifles, heading back to camp. Yer,right.

And for all Mauser's genious, he sure spent a lot of time "improving" his creations over a fairly long time. A sort of trial and error genious?. Pffhit.

Do I feel some sarcasm here?

Roger JAL!

A solution for a non-existant problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Roger JAL!

A solution for a non-existant problem.

Errr, how about the more poetic, "The mythical action that solves the mythical problem!"

John

PS, hey anybody figure out how the CRF action gets so much credit for saving so many people from getting gored disproportionate to its sales?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
PS, hey anybody figure out how the CRF action gets so much credit for saving so many people from getting gored disproportionate to its sales?

I think it has something to do with the more recent African hunters. IE American, rich, educated, and therefore "thinkers". They don't want a common old modern factory rifle they want the best (in theory). This usually means making up a custom rifle and the first question is "what's the BEST action". Well when you stop and think about it you look for some perceived benifit, real or otherwise.

So there is this and that, but the common people use them for deer etc. but some gunsmith has a heap of old clunkers that for a small fortune he can make into a nice expensive CRF.

And look if I do this, look, it spits out the cartridge. Whoops. . . that was my last one.

Bravo!

Going back to the original topic, I took the 340 out again today! Another 20 rounds, funny, the bolt failed to fall apart, all the locking lugs are still there, oh, and it kept hitting the target in the same spot over and over again. What do you have to do to break the thing, I wanna hate Weatherbys too, but experience just keeps confounding me. Oh I did have a jam though! I got one of the empties stuck trying to put them back in the box, perhaps a CRF finger could have helped the situation, but God only saw fit to equip me with a push feed finger. Proof God was not a German gun designer.

John

Well said as usual....

Mein Schweinjägerfreund!

/

The Steyr M95 was faster cycling and harder hitting than either but suffered from the tendancy to ingest muck from it's less than ideal operating environment.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
JAL:

Why did the SMLE survive, because it was the best or was it by fate and on behalf of expediency brought about by cicumstance?

Prior to WW1 the Brits already conceded to the better design in the form of the Mauser and they "borrowed" from Mauser the front bolting one piece bolt giving birth to the pattern 14 rifle, complete with smaller bore high velocity 276 cartridge. Sadly WW1 broke out and because the Brits were already tooled up for the 303 SMLE's the P14 died.

What did happen though is that it lived on in the form of the Pattern 17 in the USA in cal 30-06 and many of those are now used as platform for DG rifles...... basically because of it's Mauser derived qualities.

There were more P17's built than Springfields and they were issued to US troops in Europe during WW1 as well as to the Brits.

I do not believe that the original SMLE is a "better" rifle than the Mauser, I cannot be convinced of that !

I guess the term "better rifle" is what causes the ruckus. Again, most folks who have owned both will say that neither design is favorable over the other. It is like a Muslim and a Christian arguing who had the better messiah. There is no way to prove either is better as the are equivalent.

The SMLE was an easy rifle to keep functional (ie clean). It was easy to train on and was accurate (for WWI standards).

The P17 are easy to rebarrel and are reasonably strong and not too mention relatively cheap. CRF will never go away, there is enough lore to keep it alive and well for years.

Again, there is nothing wrong with CRF, it is just not superior to the PF for feeding or reliabilty.

Having been a big fan of the classic Mod 70 winchesters in the early 90's, I cryed as the quality kept falling to the point they were worthless. It was with great sorrow that I sold a few and bought two Sako Mod 75s, one in '06 and one in 375 H&H. I also have a 375 H&H Safari Express and a 458 win Safari express (moderately worked). I would put the Sakos ahead of the winchesters in feeding the long cartridges and extraction and a quantum leap ahead in trigger and accuracy. I've had a couple of M98 mausers and have a great deal of respect for them considering the age of their design. I also have 3 remington 700s.

The Weatherby accumark is a phenominal rifle in terms of strength, accuracy, and fit and finish. The weatheby feeds very well even though its bolt "feel" is substantially different. Having done the math, the 9 mini lug setup holds up to a little over 200,000 psi for the magnum bolt where as your typical win 70 bolt is around 65,000. The weatherby trigger, out of the box, was good to go. It is also field adjustable if you want a lighter pull. Feeding out of the magazine is excellent, especially considering the length of the weatherby rounds. The safety disengagement is quiet; something I cant stand on the tang mounts is the loud click that can spook wary game. The stocks are usually adequately reinforced for the cartridges they fire, something that can't be said for most mfgs.

The bottom line, for almost all of my hunting and shooting, the Sako's get the first grab, or the weatherby. If I were hunting buff, I would take the mod 70 in 458, mostly because of the cartridge, not the action.

Truthfully, the most venerable military bolts were CRF's, not due to superiority in design, but more by timing. By the time machining was to the point to make modern prf's a reality, most militaries went to semi auto. In the end, the greatest battlefield rifle of all was not a design by Mauser, but by John Garand.

John

Alf,

400 Nitro Express had this to say as to why the SMLE survived.

quote:

The P-13 was not designed for the .303. It was designed around a new cartridge due to a vicious circle of "what ifs" - mostly that the Mauser pattern and cartridge MIGHT prove to be a superior battle rifle in the event of a major European war, and which concerns had nothing to do with feeding. The P-13 was adopted in it's original form in 1913, and did not become the P-14 until WWI forced an emergency redesign to chamber the .303 cartridge.

Concurrent with the wild goose chase that led to the P14 design, as a stopgap measure the British Army changed it's training doctrine to take advantage of the Lee-Enfield's advantages over the Mauser - magazine capacity and rapid reloadability - which were of the greatest value in rapid fire, and that's what they trained. This proved to be it's long suit in combat service, and never would have worked had feeding/extraction/ejection issues with glowing-hot rifles and Cordite ammunition ever developed.

There had been no opportunity to yet test this in combat when the P13 was adopted, but WWI came along before the machinery to produce it was ready. Much to the shock of the proponents of the P13 in the British military, Mons and other early battles quickly proved the Lee-Enfield so definitively superior to the Mauser as a battle rifle that the British suddenly didn't WANT the P-13/14, and would have dropped the project entirely had it not been for another issue.

The problem was numbers - they clearly didn't have enough Lee-Enfields to meet war needs, nor did they think it possible to produce enough domestically to meet the need quickly enough. Had the war ended quickly, neither the P14 nor the US M1917 would ever have been produced. Retaining domestic production capacity for the Lee-Enfield, they shipped the P14 machinery to Winchester and Remington in the US.

The irony of the whole P13/14/M1917 story is that, while the US issued more M1917s than Springfields to it's frontline troops (due to our own woefully inadequate stocks of M1903s), Britain never issued the P14 to their frontline troops. In the event, they were able to produce enough new Lee-Enfields (and recycle enough battlefield recoveries) to keep the frontline units supplied, and preferred to issue the inferior P14 to Home Guard and other backwaters where serious fighting was less likely. The same was done in WWII.

Simply put, the British considered the P14 to be a bad mistake that was identified just in the nick of time.

I think the last sentence sums up his post very nicely!

So who is correct you or he?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I do not believe that the original SMLE is a "better" rifle than the Mauser, I cannot be convinced of that !

ALF; Me neither. All I was trying to say is that CRF is not the be-all to end all.
I have owned 3 CRFs (I think) and didn't know it. I just knew they (also) worked, and worked well.