Are weatherby actions a push feed type or are they considered a control feed???

quote:

Originally posted by msorenso:
Are weatherby actions a push feed type or are they considered a control feed???

Push feed, but don't let all the nysayers sway you if you like them.

Push feed and very strong. Forged pieces not investment cast, or machined from stock. Can be trued and polished very smooth. Factory makes nice from custom shop or Charlie Sisk in Texas does them.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Push feed and very strong. Forged pieces not investment cast, or machined from stock. Can be trued and polished very smooth. Factory makes nice from custom shop or Charlie Sisk in Texas does them.

........ And when you get through you still have a pushfeed actioned rifle!

I will say, however, if I had no other choice but to use a PF action, it would be #1 a Steyr mannlicher, or #2 a Weatherby mark V

I own them both. MK V Custom and SSG. For big cases you'd need the MK V. I think Mr. Sisk has a video on his site where he feeds a MK V upside down to validate the point that CRF is a solution for a problem that doesn't necessarily exist.

The reason for CRF has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with feeding the gun upside down! I really don't know who started that crap about feeding upside down, but they were real morons.

Now let's see of if anyone with any real experience can explain the TRUE benefit of a CRF rifle!

quote:

The reason for CRF has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with feeding the gun upside down! I really don't know who started that crap about feeding upside down, but they were real morons.

That's the point. THERE IS NO POINT!

quote:

Now let's see of if anyone with any real experience can explain the TRUE benefit of a CRF rifle!

Yes the NEW and HIGHLY innovative concept of CRF is unknown and little understood by most so please humor everyone with your REAL experience.

The real reason for CRF is the positive ejection of the empty case or loaded round.

If you are in a high pressure or combat situation with a CRF and you do not fully close and lock the bolt and the rifle does not fire you can (will) work the bolt and eject the loaded round and chamber another.

If this happens with a push feed you will end up with a round thrown into the chamber and trying to force another live round on top of it - jamming up the action. YOU ARE DEAD.

That's why NO modern military uses the CRF design in any bolt or semi-auto rifle. M16 - no, M14 - no, M700 - no, Kraplashnikov - no. My Daisy Red Rider - no.

Of course I've had empty chambers on follow ups in all of them at one time from not putting enough shoulder behind the M1A, & not fully opening the MK V. (sloppy work might get you killed)

toadhead,

That is a valid point, but still not the real benefit! Hint - the real benefit has little to NOTHING to do with operator error.

Oh yay, another CRF vs. PF action arguement
tsk tsk Macifej, there is one modern military that still uses a CRF firearm, the Canadian C3A1 sniper rifle. Uses a modified M98 action. But I dunno if you can consider them a actual military force!
Anyways regardless of the feeding mechanism, they're going to have advantages and disadvantages. Push feeds have a tendency to have a advantage in the accuracy department due to having a bit more metal around the chamber, and not having a cutout for the fixed extractor. Hell I don't even know why I'm writing away at this because it isn't somthing that hasn't been written before.
Regardless, Weatherby actions are quite nice and what the usual man in America is faced as far as hunting, it'll take care of the business. And it's a push-feed.

Unless you come upon a enraged squirrel with a severe case of rabies, than you may want to aquire a CRF .470 Capstick with a fast twist barrel to ensure proper penetration and to make sure you have proper control of the round at all times just in case the first shot doesn't ground it.

Metasmith!

That's a roger! No interest in this nonsense. Canadians eh? No!?! Rifles? They have them?

How's your 800 project coming? What's your plan for brass?

Maybe that rifle the Canadians were using was a long-range nerf rifle? We may never know for sure!
Well the .800 project is going, I suppose. I work down here at the machine shop on base, and we've been putting in our hours lately so I haven't had any chances to get back to the blueprints. Got all the stock necessary but I don't want to start cutting with a blind eye. I'm sure you know about that! As for brass, I may have to roll/cut my own until I figure out a source of existing cases to work with.
So are you all still planning to be in this area this Fall? I'm hoping to have everything worked out with this action I'm building, at least blueprints, and I'm intrested in sharing some ideas with you.

Metalsmith-- You can put a rim on
50 cal russian brass cases like
we did putting rims on bmg 50cal for
our 12GA FH. That case with rim on it
would work for 10GA FH at .775" diameter
and your 800NE at .800 caliber. Base would
be about .853", about .830" mouth,
and about .930 rim if done 10 ga rim size.
Length about 4.2"........With the machines
you've got there, might be easy.
Russian brass cases are berdan primed, ream
pocket, put in bushing for bmg primer,
drill boxer primer center hole......Ed

Metalsmith,

Still planning to launch at Pendleton in Fall if all goes as planned. One of my "test crew" will be coming back from deployment and is stationed there. Ed probably has more experience making X from Y than anyone I can think of so follow his lead on the brass for now. Making your own from scratch is doable in that size but BIG $$$$$$$$$.

Put a little dye on everyone of those Weatherby lugs, fire a shot and see how many make contact. That turned me off of the Weatherby action..also I am a control feed addict. Why, because I have seen too many incidents of rounds falling out of the rifles and at the wrong time. If you disagree then use a push feed, its all about choices and we have to live with them.

quote:

Originally posted by toadhead:

If this happens with a push feed you will end up with a round thrown into the chamber and trying to force another live round on top of it - jamming up the action. YOU ARE DEAD.

Sir, rubbish. Probabaly millions of PF's were sucessfully used in both world wars, and were only replaced with semi-auto rifles.
I have never heard of your theories being encounted by soldiers.
However on AR here I have read where "many" CRF Mausers were found on the battlefields all jammed up. (Possibly with crud in the breach area, I don't know).

Ray is right that a BIG calibre PF is quite likely to loose a cartridge IF it is mishandled with the bolt open.
A CRF will also loose a round if it is mishandled, (by ejecting a cartridge by withdrawing a bolt after the extractor gets a grip on it.

So, I say anyone can't work a bolt action has no place annoying dangerous game or other soldiers.

Anyway, ScottS, I'm dying here waiting for the big revelation.

quote:

Anyway, ScottS, I'm dying here waiting for the big revelation.

Yes! I've been waiting for this latest discovery in Quantum Physics myself!

Thanks for reminding me JAL!

Jolly Australian Lad!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Put a little dye on everyone of those Weatherby lugs, fire a shot and see how many make contact. That turned me off of the Weatherby action....

Unfortunately that is the case with nummerous Weatherbys. But it has not turned me off the action( I have been selective in the ones I purchased). I especially like the trimmer 6lug receiver, which makes a good mountain rifle, and with its forged metal,integ.B/H,Integ.Recoil lug,shroud/safety design, it certainly becomes my pick over a rem700.
If Weatherby lugs are not contacting as designed, Technically, it should be warranty/safety issue. Put it this way, if you sent them a letter stating that lugs on yer rifle were mostly not engaging,they may not like it, but surely would/should have to address it? What intelligent excuse could they come up with to fob you off?
I might have to contact them,saying that there is newMKV rifle in a shop that I would like to buy, but am concerned, that after inspection,a number of lugs do not contact, and see what their responce is, then tell them that numerous MkV rifles I have inspected,have the same issue.

Woodjack,
I suspect you are correct in your post, but its such a pain to return a rifle to the factory and wait the usual year to get it back..however a good smith could probably correct the problem pretty well..Not sure however as that is something I have never tried on a more than 2 lug rifle....all those lugs might be a bit of a chore???

Action work is available from their custom shop. I would be very surprised if the lugs were not trued on a custom shop rifle. If in doubt call them:

Weatherby, Inc.
1605 Commerce Way
Paso Robles, CA 93446
805-227-2600
805-237-0427 Fax



Product Code
Description
Price

CBA0908
True receiver face
$144.00

CBA0909
True bolt face
$144.00

CBA0910
Fluting
$234.00

CBA2003
Hand-honed action
$85.00

CBA0906
Install/chamber Krieger barrel-includes lapping locking lugs
$314.00

CBA2004
Damascened bolt & follower
$75.00

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by toadhead:

If this happens with a push feed you will end up with a round thrown into the chamber and trying to force another live round on top of it - jamming up the action. YOU ARE DEAD.

Sir, rubbish. Probabaly millions of PF's were sucessfully used in both world wars, and were only replaced with semi-auto rifles.
I have never heard of your theories being encounted by soldiers.
However on AR here I have read where "many" CRF Mausers were found on the battlefields all jammed up. (Possibly with crud in the breach area, I don't know).

Ray is right that a BIG calibre PF is quite likely to loose a cartridge IF it is mishandled with the bolt open.
A CRF will also loose a round if it is mishandled, (by ejecting a cartridge by withdrawing a bolt after the extractor gets a grip on it.

So, I say anyone can't work a bolt action has no place annoying dangerous game or other soldiers.

And double rubbish back to you, Sir.

My THEORIES as you call them - have been verified by numerous discussions with my elderly father who is a living veteran of WWII and served with both Infantry and Artillery units.

You might also give some thought to the fact that a lot of the infantry soldiers that served in the 2 World Wars were 18 to 21 year old kids (and some younger) that had minimal training or experience on a battlefield.

Just try working the bolt on a CFR and pushfeed rifle in the manner I have discussed and you will see the results for yourself.

I also own pushfeed rifles and they can be as reliable as any under the right conditions.

I just would not use them for dangerous game or in any situation where I might need an immediate second or third shot.

I love the Aussie VS Canuck stuff!

Commonwealth vs Commonwealth.

Call the queen and let her flip a coin.

Toadhead....no discredit to your father but I doubt he was using an M98 when he was going toe to toe with the guys who were. He obviously did ok with what he was using. I own and use a MK V Custom and have to agree with the Aussie on this one. It only fails if you are a bonehead.

Interesting - with all the M98 nutcase groupies out there, surely someone can produce a copy of some treatise Herr Mauser wrote of his intentions when he designed the device. Oh! I almost forgot....the CRF was invented by Ferdinand Ritter Von Mannlicher some years earlier (also invented the magazine rifle and clip too, and the straight pull bolt gun, and a few other things.)

Hmmm, minimal training, perhaps. Truthfully proper training will eliminate any problem with a PF, either real or perceived. There are a lot of dinosaurs that swear CRF is the only way to go when in reality, all you need to do is close the bolt before you pull the trigger.

Truthfully, short stroking the bolt will get you killed no matter what action you use. Period. No arguments. Sorry. The time lost between cycling a second round is usually enough for an animal looking to gore you to close 75 feet. (25 yds for the bench warrior type). Hiding out in the Jesse with an angry buff usually only gives you 20 yds of safety.

Having said that, the only complaint I would have in the Weatherby is the cartrideges are at max pressure from Norma and can sometimes cause bolt stick in the African Heat. I wouldn't worry about the locking lugs not all engaging at the same time, most 3 lug rifles need to break in before all three lugs engage. The good news is, even if only 3 lugs engage, you have 6 more in reserve. (please don't take that to seriously, you know who you are!)

John

quote:

Put a little dye on everyone of those Weatherby lugs, fire a shot and see how many make contact.

Ray, you're missing the point. All those "extra" lugs are a safety/back-up features, sort of like a bolted safety on a WR. As each gets sheared off, there is another to take its place! When you get down to 2 or 3 it's time to talk to your dealer about a new bolt.

I do like the action, but agree it must be a bear getting that many surfaces aligned perfectly. My only push feed is a 300W MK5(if you don't count singles and doubles).

Bob

quote:

I own and use a MK V Custom and have to agree with the Aussie on this one. It only fails if you are a bonehead.

Unfortunately, the world is full of boneheads.

Those 500 Grain X Bullet 120 Grain RL22 loads are ripping the lugs right off the bolt in my .460! Fired Cases flop out with no effort EVERY time. I once heard a story in a gunshop from a guy about how his .30-378 was horribly inaccurate. He had determined on his own that the projectiles leaving his factory rifle were touching the brake upon egress and that Weatherby just wouldn't take care of the problem. Deja Vu.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Woodjack,
I suspect you are correct in your post, but its such a pain to return a rifle to the factory and wait the usual year to get it back..however a good smith could probably correct the problem pretty well..Not sure however as that is something I have never tried on a more than 2 lug rifle....all those lugs might be a bit of a chore???

Yes Ray,
Must be a chore, cause even Weatherby prefers to avoid doing it!(evident from their off the shelf rifles)

Macifej,
Thanks for the Weath.CustomActionWorkPrices.
But really,is too much to ask/reasonable expect?that even my std.grade MkV should have;
- a true receiver face,
- a true bolt face,
- each lug contacting?(maybe not lapped for 100% contact,but at least all contacting to some degree)

If thats not the case, then when we buy a vehicle with 4WheelDISCBrakes we should not be concerned if only any two calipers are actually gripping a disc.
Any way, I'll ask Weatherby what sort of scam they are running by charging folk for what is essentailly warranty work masked as "premium custom action labor". BUt Ill present the question in more diplomatic terms

Next thing youll know, UNiTED is going to start charging extra for a life jacket,and more again to get into the life Raft, when one of their 747s' goes down in the Pacific.
I went with a friend to his uncles funeral, and when they went to put the box in the ground it would not fit,,,,after a few minutes of embarrasing stuffing around, they still could not do it. They came over to my friend to appologise. He said dont worry about it, I just wish you had given me warning, now I know to bring my own shovel next time.

Woodjack,

Interested to hear what they say.

I doubt any other brand of the off the rack rifles in your closet would be any different.

JAL,

Do me a favor and define "mishandled". Would this include anything other than slowly, carefully, steadily working the action, preferably from a machine rest or a bench with sand bags (I guess your bonnet could substitute for a bench)?

would someone give me an example of a WW1 or WW2 bolt action service rifle that WAS NOT CRF?

My Weatherby Mark 5 257 ultralite has a short bolt throw the smoothest least sloppy bolt, it shoots awesome and is the highest quality rifle I've ever shot. (havn't shot every kind of gun around but most including browning abolt, all three winchester model 70s and ruger mark 2)
I have confidence it's the toughest action around, and do all lugs contact at once? I don't know, and to tell the truth, I don't give a rip!
Their there if they need to be.

quote:

Originally posted by bearhunter762:
would someone give me an example of a WW1 or WW2 bolt action service rifle that WAS NOT CRF?

Carcano rifles were not CRF. Neither were Mosin nagants. I think the French used a Leber 1886, which I think was not a CRF, not sure though.

Most service rifles of that era were CRF, not because of any inherent advantage but likely one of practicality. Two things didn't exist then that do now.

1st is high stength steel. The steel we have now is yielding 80kpsi where as WW1 technology might have been around 35kpsi. 2nd is CNC machining. The biggest reason for the claw extractor was that it was not viable (profitable) to cut out the bolt face and insert an extractor (either Rem style or Sako style) CRF was necessary as the claw couldn't clip over the rim of the round.

One of the biggest disadvantages of CRF is that a round has to be fed from the magazine, which is probably why most modern sniper rifles are push feed.


John

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Those 500 Grain X Bullet 120 Grain RL22 loads are ripping the lugs right off the bolt in my .460! Fired Cases flop out with no effort EVERY time. I once heard a story in a gunshop from a guy about how his .30-378 was horribly inaccurate. He had determined on his own that the projectiles leaving his factory rifle were touching the brake upon egress and that Weatherby just wouldn't take care of the problem. Deja Vu.

How can you tell the lugs are ripping off? Are you measuring them against the bolt face? Are they broken off? Are they no longer square to the bolt? Do you have any pics, I would be interested to see them. Are you still shooting this thing despite failing lugs?

quote:

How can you tell the lugs are ripping off? Are you measuring them against the bolt face? Are they broken off? Are they no longer square to the bolt? Do you have any pics, I would be interested to see them. Are you still shooting this thing despite failing lugs?

Er?........Uh? Mr. Big Bore Boar Hunter!

That was a joke! There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of my Weatherby's. They are perfect and can take max loads all day long with no problem. That was my point.

Oh, you were joking, some days I'm slower than others! I figured you were one of those full of sh**ers so I called you on it.... Weatherby actions with failing lugs, now thats funny!

John

I'm going to keep trying to rip the lugs off my 460.

As hard as I try, it just keeps feeding, firing, and making big holes!


405 grains, 450 grains, 500 grains, even Barnes original 600 grains......fit and function is 100% and the lugs are still in tact.

You're using a portable "Jeeprest" that cheating!

I wish I had a 460.