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Barnes or CEB, for soft in 458 Lott
Barnes or CEB, for soft in 458 Lott
So, opinions please! The 420 grain CEB, or the 450 grain Barnes for my "soft" in the Lott? Is one better than the other, or just flip a coin. I have both on hand, and the Barnes cost a lott (pun) less.
My experience is that the Barnes hits harder.....but that's a pretty small sample. I've killed 3 buff with the 450 Barnes out of a Lott and only one with the CEB out of the same Lott....the bulls went down much faster with the Barnes.
07 May 2018, 23:37
boom stickWhat was the shot placement on the buff?
I have been a big proponent of heart/lung shots with CEB
08 May 2018, 08:06
HogbreathThe CEB is my choice for the Lott.
Guns and hunting
08 May 2018, 08:43
boom stickI guess we need to clarify which CEB bullets we are talking about. Bullets are tools. Use the right tool for the job. The right tool might be different for y'all based on the criteria.
If you have not read the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, now might be a good time to settle in for a spell and get inspired.
08 May 2018, 10:29
shootawayI have shot all kinds of bullets out of all my Lotts.Although I have not done so enough to come to a definite conclusion,I have observed things.
The 500gr TSX were the most accurate bullets I shot out of of my Ruger Lotts.The least accurate were brass monolithic solids.I might add that the TSX bullets were not accurate for long.It could be that when bore tolerances let up a bit, accuracy disappeared.Accuracy is the most important factor to me.Second is bullet toughness.There are other tough bullets out there that are accurate and stay accurate in my barrels.The best bullet I've found for my Lotts is the A-Frame.All my barrels will shoot it accurate enough and it is as tough as any.I also believe it is the easiest on my bores in that it has a pure copper(no gilding metal) jacket and has a lead core.
I suggest you try both bullets you mentioned, shoot them for a while and then you will get a good picture as to which you will want to use.
08 May 2018, 20:26
AtkinsonId opt for the Barnes based on if it ain't broke then don't go fix'en it..The Barnes has impressed me in the 458 Win. it turned it into a real rifle!
but I like a 500 gr. bullet in the .458 Win and up..Velocity means nada at Buffalo and elephant ranges, and its destructive to all bullets at those ranges.
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
10 May 2018, 05:44
LionHunterquote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
The CEB Raptor has become my choice for a "soft" for DG in both the 458 Lott and the 416Rem based upon my personal experience. It is not a soft but rather a hollow point solid whose petals separate from the base and penetrate at angles from the base, which is now a solid with direct penetration. I have examined Buff heart hit center by the Raptor. I can honestly say I have never seen such internal damage as that which the Raptor will cause.
I first used the CEB bullets in Zim on Ele and Buff in 2011 from my Lott and my RemMag and have since used no other bullet on DG every year since. Over my 20+ years hunting Africa I have tried many premium bullets. In Zambia back in the 1990's, my hunting partner and I took a variety of loads with premium bullets (including BARNEs) to test their performance on African game. Those tests are admittedly dated now, but the bullet we settled on at that time was the SWIFT A-FRAME. I stayed with the A-FRAME until switching to the CEB when encouraged by Michael McCoury to try them in 2011. One shot kills are not unusual.
Mike
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27 May 2018, 05:49
AtkinsonOne thing I,m pretty sure of is that the bullet that works perfect on a double lung shot is not likely the best choice on a full body penetration. IMO the North fork cup point comes the closes to that scenario..Ive recovered a number of them with a write up for Mike Brady the designer of the cup point.
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
If those are the two choices then the Barnes. The CEBs have a basic flaw in that if they hit brush they are coming apart. I killed a lot of buffalo with them and have concluded that they can shove them.
Or just load up some A-Frames.If there's something better for buffalo I don't know what it is.
The Barnes 450 grain TSX would be my choice without a doubt.
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29 May 2018, 20:04
boom stickquote:
Originally posted by Dogleg:
If those are the two choices then the Barnes. The CEBs have a basic flaw in that if they hit brush they are coming apart. I killed a lot of buffalo with them and have concluded that they can shove them.
Or just load up some A-Frames.If there's something better for buffalo I don't know what it is.
Not trying to start a pissing match but share knowledge and information, but...
Are Barnes impervious to brush? How do they differ when hitting brush?
Define "Come apart".
Did you use tips in the CEB?
What are you observations on flight path after hitting brush with both?
What kind of shots did you take with the CEB's? Have you ever done a heart/lung shot on a buff with CEB's?
What are your positive observations of CEB's?
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogleg:
If those are the two choices then the Barnes. The CEBs have a basic flaw in that if they hit brush they are coming apart. I killed a lot of buffalo with them and have concluded that they can shove them.
Or just load up some A-Frames.If there's something better for buffalo I don't know what it is.
Not trying to start a pissing match but share knowledge and information, but...
Are Barnes impervious to brush? How do they differ when hitting brush?
Define "Come apart".
Did you use tips in the CEB?
What are you observations on flight path after hitting brush with both?
What kind of shots did you take with the CEB's? Have you ever done a heart/lung shot on a buff with CEB's?
What are your positive observations of CEB's?
Nothing is impervious to bush. You've got a prayer if the bullet is in one piece.
They differ in that the CEBs break into 6 little pieces and one big piece on the brush and pepper the hide with little petals that do nothing. They're lucky to cut enough to bleed.
Come apart means come apart before they get to the animal. See above.
I didn't use the tips because they wouldn't fit in my magazine.
Follow-up shots on wounded animals frequently involved shots through brush. A disturbing pattern quickly emerged where the CEBs seldom made it through and the others usually made it through.
Due to the number of animals I was taking (111 in 7 days)I took just about every shot angle you can imagine. Heart/lung with a shoulder involved was the preferred first shot so yeah, I took lots of those.
For positive:
On clear first shots at shoulder/heart/lung they worked well. Just like a bunch of other bullets that work well.
They also had plenty of penetration. Just like a bunch of other bullets that penetrate well. The hide on the other side is a great equalizer, almost all good softs stop there, almost all of the time.
Negatives:
They come apart on bush.
They slow down faster than a thrown bag of leaves; so performance at ranges longer than powder-burn drop off radically.
Conclusion; too much downside for no upside. They can shove them.
30 May 2018, 03:08
boom stickI would gather that the tips might have helped some of those shots through the brush, but that is conjecture. If you were to use the raptor where the COL would match your magazine length that may have changed your opinion perhaps. We hold our opinions with such high regard that we owe it to ourselves to examine our methods at times. Thank you for your candor.
I'd say use the one that shoots the most accurate in your rifle.
But, I'm a little gun shy of the CEB Raptor bullets. They're very, very accurate from my gun but I had two of the 235 grain Raptor ER bullets (with the tips) fail on a bushbuck and a jackal in 2016.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
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30 May 2018, 13:16
416Tanzanquote:
I'm a little gun shy of the CEB Raptor bullets. They're very, very accurate from my gun but I had two of the 235 grain Raptor ER bullets (with the tips) fail on a bushbuck and a jackal in 2016.
OK, this is asking for more details.
How can a .375" big-game hunting bullet "fail" on a bushbuck or a little dog?
(I wouldn't call deflection on a branch to be bullet failure, as I've seen all bullets do that.)
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01 June 2018, 05:17
AtkinsonThe American hunter is brain washed into light fast bullets that work on all our NA soft skin game, but tend to fail on thick skinned African DG like Buffalo, Hippo, Rhino and elephant..
I would not consider any bullet under 500 grs. on these animals. The Lott is awesome on these animals with a flat nose solid, a cup point or a Woodleih soft or solid, especially the 550 gr. Woodleighs..
Ive been appraised or de-appraised as old fashion for my stance on this subject, but Ive seen the mountain and hunted the big ones for a good deal of my life, Ive sat at the campfires of the best and discussed guns into the wee hours of the morning and took their advise to heart. Why then should I place my faith on my de-appraisers who are victims of gun magazines and internet blogs of unknown value. oh my goodness!
I will now grab my horse tied out behind the house and try to make a timely escape before I get lynched for my sick and disgraceful approach humor and a valiant attempt to keep this disgusting thread going..
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com