Reading on the AR forum, the holy grail of DG bolt action appears to be reliability and feeding.

The problem with a rebated cartridge is: if the magazine spring is a bit weak or ctg drags a bit in the magazine the bolt can grab the ctg just ahead of the rim and stove pipe the round up and jam that gun. In a well built gun a brick can be made to feed, but the rebate remains a weakness or added risk.

So; where do members of this forum stand on rebated rims, are concerns over rebated rims a thing of the past.

Results (54 votes counted so far):
Would you own a bolt gun firing a ctg with a rebated rim?
10	(19%)
		Never
3	(6%)
		Yes, but not for hunting
7	(13%)
		Only for non dangerous game
34	(63%)
		Yes for all hunting
See Poll Form

Many rims are rebated. It's the extent of the rebate that can be a problem.

On the assumption that you are talking about significant rebates, such as those on the .425 Westley Richards or the .500 Jeffery, I voted never.

The rebated rim issue is an old wives tale in hunting and shooting circles! Now if we are talking about an incompetent gunsmith putting together a DG rifle in say a 500J with a rebated rim that's the rifles you here about having problems. If the job is done by a Stewart Satterlee, a Danny Pederson, a Duane Wiebe, a Michael Merker etc., etc., etc., good competent gunsmiths = no feeding issues at all under any circumstances.

Dirk,
Old tales often have some degree of truth as recounted 3rd page of this Jack Lott article:

http://www.the-gun.com/pdfs_articles/big_bore_one.pdf

No doubt a rebated ctg can be made to feed, and have served some hunters well. But not all. Some men have died and others have resigned. Things wear out, get out of line or fail at the most inconvenient times. Practice all you can, but in the heat of battle - stuff happens.

Similar scenario: control feed vs push feed- one is better, both can work.

With so many good choice today, why screw around.

Lets see how the survey plays out, seems many indeed are comfortable with rebated rims.


Mrlex,
yes lets assume significant rebates and leave that definition for another day.

I answered always as it is more often in modern guns the design / gunsmithing, not the cartridge.

WR had no problem getting guns to work / feed correctly.

And gun / cartridge problems exist and "stuff happens" in the heat of battle without a rebated rim present - short, long or magnum action, it doesn't matter.

I have always wanted an 11.2x72 Schuler. If I ever get around to having this built, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt DG with it.

Boom Musings...

A good smith can get them to feed reliably. (Expensive) A gun designed for the round can feed. (cheaper but serious rebated rim carts are not produced in large numbers and still expensive)
I question rebate when it is not needed. sometimes it is needed to fit into a certain gun. The 600 OK was designed to fit in the CZ and had to fit it's bolt. Thus the rebate. AHR seems to have done an excelent job getting them to feed. so issue ? No. would I love a 600 OK CZ? Hell yes!

Why have a seriously rebated 425 WR when you can make it from RUM brass or 404 Jeffery brass?
Factory ammo. Id rather have little or no rebate and handloads then have a big rebate and factory ammo.
The reason for the rebate on the 425 WR is non existant today. The 458 AR is a modern 425 WR. designed to fit a specific type of gun with little smithing, magnum capacity in a non magnum action and a big bullet but has a small rebate.

Does a rebate aid feeding? No.

There does not seem to be a feeding issue with the small rebate where the guns are designed for the rounds like the RUM and WSM carts.

A hen could probably lay square eggs if God designed them that way.

But He made them oval, didn't He?

Without getting into a debate over evolution and creationism, suffice it to say that eggs are not square because a square egg would be a really bad design.

To me, the logic on rebated rims is simple and similar.

Rounds with rebated rims are a bad design, and are accidents waiting to happen.

With so many big actions available, there is no longer any need to use small bolts and bolt faces on big bodied rounds in order to cram them into small actions.

There are much better cartridge designs available.

quote:

With so many big actions available, there is no longer any need to use small bolts and bolt faces on big bodied rounds in order to cram them into small actions.

I was thinking the same and the new PH action is (or will be)large enough that even a .700 caliber will fit- no rebate. No need for this:



when we have a choice:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Boom Musings...

A good smith can get them to feed reliably. (Expensive) A gun designed for the round can feed. (cheaper but serious rebated rim carts are not produced in large numbers and still expensive)
I question rebate when it is not needed. sometimes it is needed to fit into a certain gun. The 600 OK was designed to fit in the CZ and had to fit it's bolt. Thus the rebate. AHR seems to have done an excelent job getting them to feed. so issue ? No. would I love a 600 OK CZ? Hell yes!

Why have a seriously rebated 425 WR when you can make it from RUM brass or 404 Jeffery brass?
Factory ammo. Id rather have little or no rebate and handloads then have a big rebate and factory ammo.
The reason for the rebate on the 425 WR is non existant today. The 458 AR is a modern 425 WR. designed to fit a specific type of gun with little smithing, magnum capacity in a non magnum action and a big bullet but has a small rebate.

Does a rebate aid feeding? No.

There does not seem to be a feeding issue with the small rebate where the guns are designed for the rounds like the RUM and WSM carts.

I have a Remington, (yes, a Remington), LSS .300 RUM and have had no feeding problems with it, but it's not a DG rifle so I don't sweat it. It feeds like a dream because a great smith worked it over, but it kicks harder than my .375 so I don't shoot it that much, but it's great for thse SC beanfields and possible 450 yard shots.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Dirk,
Old tales often have some degree of truth as recounted 3rd page of this Jack Lott article:

http://www.the-gun.com/pdfs_articles/big_bore_one.pdf

Fourbore,
Jack Lott's article that you mentioned focused on the 425WR as probamatic, not the 500 Jeffery. As you probably know the 425WR has a greater rebated rim than the 500J which is the rebated caliber I mentioned in my post. I don't think there are many folk on AR who have not had some feeding problem issues with one rifle or another when changing 458wm's to 458 Lott's, 375 H&H's to 416 Rem mag's, etc, etc. Once feeding issues are totally resolved, the accident waiting to happen is completely resolved, rebated or not.

I've used a 425WR, in a WR Rifle and they work fine.

IMHO, the only true successful rebated rim design is the 284 Winchester. It works at the factory round, the 6 and 6.5 versions, and I have a 22-284 that works awesome on live varmints at extended ranges.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I've used a 425WR, in a WR Rifle and they work fine.

Nigel, I've never heard of any feeding issues from anyone that owns a bolt chambered for the caliber either, it's just that the article fourbore mentioned brought up the 425WR as being problamatic.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
IMHO, the only true successful rebated rim design is the 284 Winchester. It works at the factory round, the 6 and 6.5 versions, and I have a 22-284 that works awesome on live varmints at extended ranges.

Rich

So how come my and most other 500 Jeffrey's I know of over here (including the 2 originals) work fine ?

Mine works because it is a direct copy from an Original Jeffrey 500 Jeffrey that used to live in Australia.

The rebate is a weakness, not a guarantee to fail - a potential problem. That should mean extra effort needed to build and extra vigilance on the shooters part. Is owning xyz is justified given all the alternatives today? Was it ever?

I have read AR discussion around push feeds, 3 grains delta in ctg capacity, and all manner of minutia of bullet and ctg parameters. Reliability , reliability, reliability seems a mantra. I have been a little surprised the near silence on AR when rebated ctg designs are pimped the No1 best choice. I mean, rarely is a rebate even mentioned.

I was on this forum for weeks, curious as all heck about all the buzz around the 600 OK until I found out is was rebated! All one had to do was step down from 60 to 58 caliber to delete the rebate and double magazine capacity! Damn!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
... if the magazine spring is a bit weak or ctg drags a bit in the magazine the bolt can grab the ctg just ahead of the rim and stove pipe the round up and jam that gun.

and that can't happen with a rimmed or non-rebated rim cartridge under the same circumstances?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
The rebate is a weakness, not a guarantee to fail - a potential problem. That should mean extra effort needed to build and extra vigilance on the shooters part. Is owning xyz is justified given all the alternatives today? Was it ever?

I have read AR discussion around push feeds, 3 grains delta in ctg capacity, and all manner of minutia of bullet and ctg parameters. Reliability , reliability, reliability seems a mantra. I have been a little surprised the near silence on AR when rebated ctg designs are pimped the No1 best choice. I mean, rarely is a rebate even mentioned.

Reliability, reliability, reliability - yep, agree, and before I go out hunting / culling, I practice with my eyes closed, loading, chambering, ejecting etc etc.

And I would say that in most cases over a week or 2, with a variety of guns, I would have one hiccup with each of them.

I short stroked my Magnum Mauser 505 Gibbs once (not something I tend to do), jammed a round in my take down 404 etc etc.

Some of them could be put down to the rounds not having been put in the magazine correctly or shifted forward etc while running or whatever.

As someone who said above, the rebated rim is a POTENTIAL problem. And so are plenty of other things.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by fourbore:
... if the magazine spring is a bit weak or ctg drags a bit in the magazine the bolt can grab the ctg just ahead of the rim and stove pipe the round up and jam that gun.



and that can't happen with a rimmed or non-rebated rim cartridge under the same circumstances?

Without a rebate the bolt would ride over the round and worse case you would fire on an empty chamber. Best case you would notice what happened and quickly recover Either way; time permitting you would cycle the bolt again. .... Not good, but better than a round crammed and jamed.

I have used the .500 Jeffery for years with absolutley no problems.

The .404 Jeffery is rebated, Weatherby is rebated, the Remington Ultra Mags are rebated, etc, etc, etc.

I would take a .425 Westley Richards and a .500 Jeffery with complete confidence against any game anywhere in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Without a rebate the bolt would ride over the round and worse case you would fire on an empty chamber.

Not so sure about that.

Since we are speaking of "possible" scenarios, I can tell you from experience that the edge of a bolt riding hard against a slightly cocked cartridge (as might occur if the rim got hung up against the rear of the magazine or if the follower spring was weak) will dig into the softer brass, drag the cartridge forward and jam it just as you described.

I can not say whether this scenario is as, more or less likely that that you described. I did see it once in 40 years of shooting and hunting.

Nobody is telling anybody what to use, as far as I can tell.

But some are reserving their right to comment, and some are, even bolder, actually commenting - that's all.

I have a 425 WR AND a 500 Jeff.....the WR is a circa 50's WR rifle and the 500 is a modern Heym. I have gone outside many times and run the ammo thru both as fast as I can....also at the range while firing. To date neither has failed to feed at all. Could they....yep....so could a 30/06...but I'd hunt DG with either...and plan to.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

The .404 Jeffery is rebated

Originaly yes a small rebate but it seems to have been corrected to no rebate or is anyone producing brass or ammo with a rebate that we do not know about?

I have a CZ based 500 Jeffrey. No issues feeding but the magazine spring could be a bit stronger. Going to have that looked at before I hunt dangerous game. I have about 300 rounds through it so far and no issues, using Jamison brass and RCBS dies.

Chuck

SOme of these urban legends have a bit of truth to them. I have never been a fan of rebated rim cartridges, but that is just me, they just seem unnatural. That being said, many rifles have been made that function flawlessly with rebated rim cartridges, and many have been used with great success.

The problem with dangerous game hunting, is that failures are so catastrophic that few people are willing to veer from the tried and true. For those that are just blasting water jugs for fun, the risk of a jam is less harrowing to the mind. hence the two schools of thought.

I have the feeling that old PHs would poo-poo the idea of DG cartridges with rebated rims because most of their clients would buy on Monday and Fly on Tuesday. Most clients probably never feed check any of their ammo to boot. And few, if any, have put enough rounds through it to be comfortable shooting it.

The water jug blasters are more likely to have put the hundreds of rounds through their rifle necessary to have the confidence in the feeding and operation being 100%. Most probably make their own ammo and know that they feed correctly.

John

CIP brass specs, max diameters of base/head/forward of rim, and at rim, OD:

404 Jeffery aka 404 Riml. N.E.:
base: .5449" = 13.84 mm
rim: .5429" = 13.79 mm
Difference is a twentieth of a millimeter or two thousandths of an inch.
Rebated?
I am crushed.

I am comforted by by this:
.338 Lapua Mag.:
base: .5870" = 14.91 mm
rim: .5878" = 14.93 mm
The rim is eight ten-thousandths (one fiftieth of a millimeter) bigger than the base diameter.

.416 Rigby:
base: .5890" = 14.96 mm
rim: .5902" = 14.99 mm
The rim is twelve ten-thousandths (three hundreths of a millimeter) bigger than the case head.

By golly, those last two are almost semi-rimmed.
But that is actually just in line with the case taper continued across the extractor cut between base and rim.
Beauteous.

Of course in manufacturing of brass, the actual diameters come out a few thou smaller most of the time, than those max specs.

Sometimes we have to live with non-rebated brass that is rebated by a few thou in the manufacturing process.
That is not ideal.
That just adds to the spice of DG hunting.

500 Jeffery and 425WR users are getting the most excitement for their money.
Sort of like gambling.
Any rebate bigger than a not-so-silly millimeter in diameters is way too big for a professional hunter.
O.K. for mere thrill seekers,
as long as their life insurance and major medical is paid up.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

he reason for the rebate on the 425 WR is non existant today.

Exactly! The whole argument summed up 100%. Save to keep old Westley rifles shooting there is no point at all.

If they were 100% reliable then maybe the 41 Action Express pistol cartridge would have been still a serious rival to the 40 S & W?

The .50 Beowulf has a rebated head. It's basically a cut-down 11.2 Schuler. The Beowulf feeds from a cheap stamped magazine, reliably enough for full-auto fire in military situations.

The Beowulf uses a rebated rim since it was made to fit bolts made for 7.62x39 bolts made for converted M-16s.
The cartridge is quite short by rifle standards, and uses a stubby hollowpoint or large meplat bullet.


Though I see the reasoning behind the people who question the idea of rebated rims, if a Beowulf reliably cycles through an AR-pattern autoloader, I think any bolt action that won't reliably feed a rebated sporting cartridge needs the attention of a gunsmith.

The 50 Beowolf, is an absolute horror of a ctg design. The fact that it is a government backed (mil spec) project gives me no more comfort than having a govt design/spec'ed health care system. You tell me the war, that we went into where the equipment all worked right?

These black guns are push feed, yet that does not result in a general aceptance of that design on this forum. cranking a bolt by hand is not the same as a semi-auto bolt movement... I assume there in lies the difference. Does this also change the function with a rebate, dont know. Doubt it. It is another variable. Single column vs staggered magazine: better for rebate feeding at cost of capacity. I assume the wolf is single column? I don't follow the black side of the sport.


The bay o wolf :