I believe Mitch's Trex had a 12" twist. That must be why it made such nice fire balls, this one shaped like a pit viper striking:



I made a pilgrimage to Long Island to train with Zen Master Mitch Carter in the techniques of Torque Control. On three Saturdays in April and June of 2001, Mitch volunteered his rifle and ammo to enlighten me.

Here is Master Mitch's best:



Notes from the sessions, my diploma, I scribbled on the back of one of Mitch's 100-yard targets on graduation day in June 2001. I headed to Botswana a few weeks later:

Keep warming up, studying the Zen ways, and save your $$,$$$.$$ cause I'll have something for you to "study" in the near future!!

RIP,
Why such slow powder and HIGHLY compressed loads? Surely not a pressure issue.

Also, where did Mitch get 900gr Woodleighs in 0.585" diameter, special order?

Nice groups though. Heck impressive recoil control on the bench too!! It seems as though that rifle hasn't budged you a bit! I mean it looks as though the rifle's forearm is still sitting in the rest!! IMPRESSIVE, MOST IMPRESSIVE!!!

I have to get 10,000 posts somehow. It is a personal goal.

I fired 56 rounds of ammo over 3 weekends, 18 to 20 shots per session. I have them all on paper, fouling shots too.

Indoors 4/21/01 and 6/30/01, outdoor range 4/28/01.

My final indoor session produced the best group. The outdoor session produced my worst. There were 40 mph gusts of wind that day and my best was barely under an inch for 3 shots at 100 yards. That day Mitch did very close to 1/2 inch for three shots at 100 yards, though it was with a different load than I was shooting. I was helping him check some new loads for accuracy, and was greatly honored to be allowed to do so.

I do like to think that Mitch was using an especially accurate 1/2 MOA load, and he gave me the 1 MOA load to test that day.

I was humbled in the presence of Obi Wan Mitch Carter.

May The Torque be with y'all.

awesome is an overworked word these days, but I think this is an appropriate usage in this context.

Boomstick's 577BME will not have the case capacity of this one, but will recoil prove the limiting factor with both? I mean that, with regards to velocity.

I HAVE to respect anybody that can do this level of work with one of these.

Rich
DRSS

900-grain Woodleighs: Yes a limited .585cal/900-grain run was done by Woodleigh.

Load recipes: Master Mitch was having fun.

Recoil control: When I first started with fouling shots, that rifle would flop over onto its right side off the rest with me barely hanging on.

It had a 26" barrel with 12" twist and weighed just over 14 pounds, IIRCC, with a muzzlebrake (KDF type). Answer System recoil pad, IIRC. Leupold fixed 6X scope, and I mean fixed. The mounts were soldered onto the action, a BBK-02, with Pac Nor or McGowen barrel, must have been Mcgowen with 12" twist barrel, both Harry McGowen and Dennis Olson did some work on that rifle, IIRC. Harry had an open mind. He made .395 barrels, after all, just before he retired at age 78.

Master Mitch gave me his PAST Pad and instruction on gripping technique at the bench after those fouling shots.

I am numb.

Those groups are quite amazing considering all I have heard and read on here is that the 577 will not group cause it has such BALLS and is only meant to be used when animals try to bite. Pretty cool to see somebody can hold on and print badass groups. Amazing shooting form no doubt in my uneducated opinion.

MR,my friend, forget about it!
Ha, ha. Numbness can be a good thing after shooting a 577 Trex. My favorite numbness potion:

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
... all I have heard and read on here is that the 577 will not group cause it has such BALLS ...

BALLS can be a good thing when it comes to accuracy, especially if the BALLS are numb.

Ah ha! Only 50 more posts to go. Time for a nap.

Well RIP, I certainly was not referring to "BALLS" in the reference of a blueprinted 308 competition bolt action being BALLS DEAD ACCURATE!!

Actually it could be compared to Tank Abbott back in the day in the UFC. His style was never refined by any means, but when he punched you in the chin your whole family tree felt it!!!

Don...can we give RIP 50 posts for good behavior?
You could take them from mine...I average 9 posts a day so wont take me long to recoup.

I called a flyer on the third shot of this group. This group would have been much tighter if I had not pulled one. Lost concentration after seeing two holes almost as one through the spotting scope. My bad.

How is Mitch doing these days?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
How is Mitch doing these days?

Last time I heard from him he had bought a midnight blue Corvette and was moving to Florida, or down south close to a daughter. Air quality in NYC deteriorated for a while after 9/11, eh?

I lost contact with him.

I can only hope he is blasting away in the dunes down there.

577 Trex vs 585 belted mag, is there an advantage of one over the other? These are very powerfull chamberings and was just wondering if there was something to differentiate a need between the two? Think of this as a question from a guy getting ready to build a rifle from scratch- not just a rebarrel/ chamber job. Thanks R.

Good question. I do not think anyone here can really compare the "new kid" to the well established 585 T-Rex (or is it 577T-Rex?) Boomie...? At least, not until mid to late October when I get to be the big bore guinea pig with Boomie and a few others. Ask me then...

As of 3 September, 2007 the 577/585 Belted Magnum Express of Boomstick's offers ONE striking advantage...there is plenty of brass available for it for $2.50 per case. A smaller, although important second thing, is that it will easily fit into an Enfield or RSM or CZ. I think I PM'ed you that I have one of each, the Enfield ships in the morning...thanks Jason!!

Any gunsmith that can make a 505 Gibbs feed properly can make one of these, or my 550 feed equally as well. This case is 3" long, which makes even an enfield stock box workable for a 3.65" OAL...punch the pins out and reverse the end caps. Boomie's original design parameter was to duplicate the 577NE 3" ballistics, 750gr at 2050fps at very low pressures. Donnelly's book says 100gr of 3031 will push a 750gr cast bullet 2000fps. Since Boomie's wildcat will hold around 180gr of powder, final velocities will just be a contest between man and machine...and I think recoil is going to win here. MV's will match or very nearly so, the 585NYati/T-Rex, since recoil is the final determinator of velocity with any of the three.. The BME can be shot at 2250fps with the 750gr bullets and be manageable in a 10.5-12lb rifle, scoped and loaded. Our goal is to hit 2100fps with perhaps an 875gr bullet. Swageall has graciously volunteered to to do some design work if I will shoot them!

Ask me again in six weeks.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

I've always wanted a T-rex, but not sure if I would hunt with it concerning the recoil. Muzzlebreaks are just out of the question for the moment. Can these be built in say a 12# range that is manageable for a quick follow up shot? Just wondering and entertaining the idea of a {near} future build. R.

Here are some potential benefits to be seen in about a month with the proving grounds in Idaho;

Virtualy the same capacity as the original 577 Nitro Express. Not too big, not too small esentialy a bolt action 577 with the ability to go as high as the shooter can stand or shoot classic loads and "pig dispenser"/plinking loads @ 1600 fps.

Cases should last longer due to the straight belted design

Cheaper more avaliable cases

no rebate so easier to get to feed thus a potentialy a cheaper smithing bill.

No shoulders means less bolt thrust over a bottleneck design so less stress on the gun

quote:

Originally posted by Rodney H.{500Jeffery}:
I've always wanted a T-rex, but not sure if I would hunt with it concerning the recoil. Muzzlebreaks are just out of the question for the moment. Can these be built in say a 12# range that is manageable for a quick follow up shot? Just wondering and entertaining the idea of a {near} future build. R.

Being that this has a better economy of powder it should recoil less than the T-Rex all things being equal in terms of design and weight.

There is no doubt that even classic 577 loads would be at the top of what most shooters could do with some exceptions. I am a proponent of classic loads in a carryable weight rifle...who wants to use a gun bearer?

With three or four down and one in chamber this could be ideal for a charge from more than one animal.

Fully loaded with a scope most would weigh 12 lbs I would think but some would like a 10.5 lb rig for a lighter carry i would assume.

Problem with trex is problems Asq has
in customer service and supplies.
And a lot of it not their fault,
with the dirty deal the feds did on them,
and the boss nearly killed in a car
wreak after that, while fighting the feds.
The cases they had made here were thin
in the corners. The cases Bertram made
were strong radius in the corners but
rim and pocket were off-center of the
case body on lot of them. Turned a lot
of people off on the company, guns, and
cartridge.What Rip did as shown above
and Saeed's video has gave it a certain
bigger than life mystique.Ed

What Ed and Boomie said!

Rich
DRSS

I am looking to build a low buck version of this, once I can find a slightly used CZ for a foundation - is the case price of $2.50 each before Ed swages a belt on them?
With sensible loads and loading techniques, seems the cases will last quite a few cycles.
I am not looking for a dinosaur slayer, but a low buck bolt gun duplicating 577NE ballastics and an occasional "snorting" load.

Thanks to all you guys for the work involved -
KMule

I posted this on the 585 thread but i thought i would re post it here...

There is nothing "wimpy" about classic 577 nitro loads... it was THE ivory hunters gun for a stopper and it can be now accomplished as cheap as $1,500 or as fancy as the maharaja's guns. This is a sea change for mega bores.

http://www.cabelas.com/information/cabelasfieldguides/F...77NitroExpress..html

Being Kicked By A Mule - The .577 Nitro Express. by Mike Schoby


I can't say I am a big bore fanatic, thinking that one must use a .375 for whitetails, but I like large bores, and heavy bullets all the same. To most Americans this means rifles in the .300 Win. Mag. class, which puts the venerable .375 H&H Mag. somewhere in the 'earth-shaking cannon' realm. But when I speak of big bores, I think of truly BIG BORES. The various .40 calibers don't even make the cut. Elmer Keith was astutely right when he said "they {.40 caliber rifles} make a great woman or kid's rifle on safari." To make the big bore cut, something over .50 caliber actually pushing .60 is preferable.

The illustrious Professional Hunter Mark Sullivan (of the Black Death video series fame), most concisely summed up what a big bore rifle is, "I often chuckle when clients tell me that a .375 H&H Magnum is a big gun. Believe me, a big gun is when you can pack your lunch and desert into the chambers and still have room for a soda."

I want something, that can stop a charging elephant in mid-stride (a constant threat in western Nebraska). Something that has enough foot pounds of energy to impress a Mac truck and cartridges big enough that it takes a separate porter to carry them. Why would someone want such a rifle, you may ask? Like the question, "Why do you hunt?" the answer should be self-evident and if you have to ask, no amount of explaining will ever suffice.

Recently, I got to test the big bore rifle of my dreams, a turn of the century Westley Richards 3" .577 Nitro Express double rifle. Firing a 750-grain solid or expanding bullet, this monster delivered an astounding 7,000-foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. According to Craig Boddington, (author of the book Safari Rifles) these rifles have but one purpose; "to stop the largest and most dangerous game, whether it is inbound, outbound or standing still." More then sheer power, the big Nitro Express doubles are a symbol of adventure, of a different time and a different breed of men. Rendered down to their essence, they are Africa.



This rifle, aside from caliber, was a work to behold. It exemplified the best of English craftsmanship, grace and lines. While it weighed 15 pounds, it balanced and handled like a fine shotgun. Coming up light to the shoulder, and swinging effectively, one could practically imagine a charging buffalo piling up at your feet

Power
This is always the first question in everyone's mind and they don't wait long in asking, "How powerful is it?" The term "power" when discussing a cartridge is a delicate subject. There are several ways of measuring this innocuous term, but there is no perfect method to determine how it stacks up against game, or often against other cartridges. However there are several "standard" guidelines.

The first is foot pound of energy. Energy is not a good test of how a cartridge performs on game, but it is a common comparison between different rounds. For example, a standard 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet has around 2,900 foot pounds at the muzzle. A .375 H&H Magnum with a 300 grain bullet has around 4,265 foot pounds. The .577 Nitro Express with a 750-grain bullet has just a shade over 7,000. Impressive indeed.

There are several other means of measuring "power" in terms of how it translates to game performance. The most widely recognized method (note, I didn't say accurate or scientific, just recognized) is the Taylor Knock-Out Values (Developed by John "Pondoro" Taylor, the famous ivory hunter).

To qualify the .577 even further, compare some of these values against other big game cartridges. The same 30-06, 180 grain load mentioned above has a Taylor KO value of 21, while the .375 weighs-in at 41 (although John Taylor himself admitted the .375 was much more impressive on game then this number indicates), and the .577 blows the rest away with an impressive 128.



Recoil
The next question, after "how powerful is it?" is "how much does it kick?" For the non-technical layman, the easy answer is, A LOT! Like a 12ga? No, a lot more. It is hard to describe, it doesn't dislocate your shoulder, knock you down or make you bleed (Ok, occasionally you may experience a tad bit of bleeding from your knuckles slamming into the trigger guard), but it does kick and leaves most shooters with a sense of awe and a little bit of bruising. The nice thing about shooting a big Nitro gun is that everything else pales in comparison. Your .338 or .375 will feel very, very manageable afterwards.

To put a technical spin on it, your average 8 pound 30-06 produces roughly 15 foot pounds of rearward driven energy, an average weight .375 produces a little over 30 foot pounds, and a .577 that weighs 15 pounds, slams back with 70 foot pounds of energy. To put this into perspective, a bullet fired from .22 LR has around 80 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards!

The only saving grace of the big Nitros is that very few makers tried to make a "stalking weight" rifle out of them. 15 pounds is the norm and some are even heavier with the addition of mercury or lead recoil reduction system in the stock. This makes for a hard day of carrying (very few people can carry a rifle of this weight very far- which explains their limited numbers, even in the heyday of ivory hunting), but it does help tame the recoil.



Ammo
Loaded ammo, brass and bullets are all available and by many estimates there is more sold in a greater diversity then during the height of the Ivory Hunting Age. Prices range from a low of around 7 bucks a pop, if you reload, to over $20.00 if you buy factory loaded fodder. For this reason, range time with this rifle, per hour, is about as expensive as flying a Dehavilland Beaver.

Accuracy
Extreme accuracy is not the hallmark of a large bore double rifle, but that is not what they are designed for. They were designed for up-close and personal work, where one shot is good and an instant second shot is even better. If you need a gun to prevent, or stop, a critter from chewing on your leg or trampling you into a dusty, pink pulp a big bore double is ideal.

I shot this gun offhand (the only way to shoot a big bore rifle) at a target positioned at 50 yards. My first shot admittedly was about 10 inches low, due to a chronic flinch I develop when faced with the prospect of an imminent pounding. However, after the shock and anticipation wore off, I realized the gun punches a bit, but was not unmanageable and placed several subsequent shots within a four-inch circle surrounding the bullseye - more then good enough for dangerous game work.

Cost
The old adage of "If you have to ask, then you can't afford one" is especially true when discussing vintage Nitro Express double rifles. Trust me, I know; I had to ask. While there are some cheaper doubles made by American or continental European manufacturers, they will still cost as much, if not more, then a standard family sedan, if you want a good working English double in a truly large Nitro caliber (like the .577) expect to spend as much as a new full sized, crew cab pickup. If you want to go hog wild and get a Deluxe or Royal grade by one of the "best" makers complete with the "best" engraving and all the accessories, be prepared to spend the equivalent of your house.

And ask yourself, why the heck not? I mean what good is a house at stopping a charging buffalo? And without the hassle of that pesky mortgage payment, you will be free to take off to Africa and become the ivory hunter of your childhood dreams. Just imagine roaming the savanna with a group of porters and trackers and a best grade double, slung muzzle-forward over your shoulder. I know, I know, I am wasting my breath, the argument didn't work with my significant other either.

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

And now, thru the efforts of Boomie and Ed Hubel, the magic is available to everyone here.

We pay homage to Robgunbuilder for his pioneering work in this field, and to RIP for his tales of the thumpers here.

Now, we can all have one of our very one...and at priced like a six-year old Yugo.

Rich
DRSS