The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores CEB BBW Solid - suggestions for feeding concerns?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Looking for some wisdom. I have been really impressed with all the CEB bullets. I am headed to Zim in October and I plan to use the CEB BBW 450 Solid/ 420 noncon combo in my 450 Dakota. I have been working up loads and I think I have found a load I like that gives me 2470 FPS with the solid, and a similar velocity with the NonCon that will provide similar Points of Impact. My focus thus far has been on single shots with nothing in the magazine. They have all shot and fed well. They also feed just fine when I load up the mag and just dry cycle the shells through the gun (without firing) I tried some rapid fire from a standing position over the weekend. Here is what I did: -Loaded up three shells in the mag. -Opened the bolt and chambered the top shell -Fired the gun -Opened the bolt and it extracted the old shell -When trying to close the bolt, the shell would bind as it was sliding into the chamber (this happened 2 out of two attempts) I tried this same experiment several times with a round nose and the second shell chambered without issue. The CEB bullets are seated so that the crimp sits just behind second band  What suggestions are there for eliminating this binding issue? Should I seat the bullet in to the next crimp? Can the feed ramp be modified at all? Any other ideas? | ||
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I'd seat deeper, so that only one band is visible. I had a like problem in both my 450 Dakota and 505 Gibbs,solved with seating as I suggested. Bob DRSS DSC SCI NRA & ISRA | |||
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I'm not an expert on feed issues such as this but it sounds to me like you might have an issue with the rails on the left side of the magazine that needs a bit of tuning. Should be an easy fix if seating deeper does not correct it. I seat all of my CEB's with only the last band showing. | |||
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Rob Both Bob and Todd are correct. First, seat down to the top band only showing, this may solve the issue. If not, then Todd is correct that the left side needs a bit of tuning. Neither of which is a big deal, and the seating will have no effect on performance or accuracy with these. If you are running compressed, you might see a tiny bit increase in velocity/pressures, but not much to worry with. This will also give you two bands in that neck and better neck tension as well. Try seating deeper first. I am having retaining issues with my new 50 and 475 B&M in those new super bastogne stocks! I have to send both up to Brian to sort them out. I have been trying not to send stocks like these in shipping, so Brian has stocks there to use. Except sometimes even a stock change makes a difference. He had both there, worked like champs in those stocks, new stocks changed dynamics, so now they need to be tuned with the stocks they call home. Just one of those things, and no big deal. Once sorted out, that will end the problem permanently. Will be the same for you as well. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Excellent, I will try the seating idea first. Can someone describe what is meant by tuning the left rail? Is that something any gunsmith can do, or is it somewhat of a specality? | |||
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Rob Tuning rails, magazine adjustments, things like that are very difficult and the slightest change makes a huge difference. There may be some good gunsmiths out there that can do this, that I don't know about. But Brian at SSK, and D'Arcy Echols are the ones I know can do these things. I would venture that RIPs Gunsmith he uses in KY can do it as well, I think he is pretty good. Probably more, but it is a job that is sensitive you might say. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Rob, It might also be that the feed ramp needs to be reshaped or polished. "Tuning" the feed rails would mean some reshaping and polishing there. A competent gunsmith is needed to decide. You will see that the long blunt nose of the bullet is starting up the feed ramp too soon to allow proper angle of entry. Simply seating the bullet deeper is often the quick fix for that. | |||
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Rob you have a PM. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks everyone for the info on the tuning process. I should be able to try the deeper seating on the bullets this weekend. And y=thanks Jim for the PM! | |||
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I loaded up some rounds with the deeper seating and cycled them through both fast and slow. Seems as though the left rail has two things happening. Sometimes it keeps the tail of the cartridge too low and the bolt "misses" the base of the shell when cycling either causing a jam, or causing the bolt to close with no shell in the chamber. This happens on the slow cycles. The second issue is that it hops up and comes in at a odd angle as the bolt closes causing a jam. (Sometimes it feeds just fine too). Jim pointed me to a local gunsmith who is going to take care of this for me. he is headed out of town and will be gone through July but can take care of me in August which is plenty early enough for me to get the gun back in time to field test it prior to my trip in early October. Thanks all for the advice - this place never fails me. | |||
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Can you tell if the follower is dragging on the box? If it's binding anywhere it might keep the round a bit low. | |||
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Here's a thought. Load a Woodleigh Hydro in the tube and two Barnes round nose solids in the magazine. Rob, I have a 450 Dakota too. I can send you a couple of Barnes round nose and flat nose solids if you want to try them. My solution was to simply load three 450 grain Barnes TSX bullets in my gun. That should do it. While it is true that flat nose solids are superior, Barnes is correct in that flat nose solids can cause feeding problems which can happen at the worst possible time. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Not sure how much free movement you have in the magazine box, but live firing usually causes the cartridges to slide forward against the front of the box. This can present a different feed angle that when the cartridges are hand cycled from the rear of the box. | |||
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Dave, I've no intent to slam you, disrespect you, or to hijack Rob's thread...I only want to make a personal comment. My comment is, 'I have a difficult time understanding why someone would prefer using a potentially inferior bullet vis-a-vis having a competent gunsmith eliminate a feeding problem'. Choosing the 1st option insures the problem will exist throughout your ownership of the rifle while choosing the 2nd option eliminates the problem throughout your ownership of the rifle. Again I mean no disrespect to you. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Cappy, you are a true gentlemen and I KNOW YOU MEANT NO DISRESPECT. First, I agree with you that the flat nose solid is indeed a better bullet. However, I have never been able to warm up to the view that round nose solids don't work. We know they do. Hunters have been using them for years with great success. In addition, I am not convinced that even the most competent gunsmith can eliminate the feeding problems which are inherent with a flat nose bullet. Some guns like levers were designed specifically to feed flat nose bullets. The work fantastic in a double where no "feeding" is required. However, some bolt guns may be very finicky about what they are fed and tweaking the gun may or may not solve the problem. It there is still a problem, it's probably going to occur at the worst possible time. I think it is just easier to use a bullet that the gun likes but then again, as I said, I am okay with a round nose solid. Michael thinks I am just "cheap".  I think we on AR, myself included, obsess over stuff like bullets a little too much in an attempt to reach "perfection". Millions of hunters go afield each year and yes, even to Africa and have great success with bullets that some here would consider unacceptable. I think Sam and Michael have done an extraordinary thing with the BBW#13 solid. I am not a fan of the non cons but have no qualms with the guys that seem to love them. I love the Woodleigh Hydro and I will forever be a TSX fan. Now we have super bullets. I think you just have to pick the one that makes the most sense to you. Good hunting my friend. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Good hunting to you as well my friend.  Don't worry 'bout Michael...we just give him something and someone to talk about!  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks Dave! Very kind offer. I have several Barnes RN Solids, Swift A-frames and Woodleigh Hydro's so I am covered. If I cannot get the CEB's to feed, then I will most definitally move to Hydros or RN Solids for the following shells. After all, any bullet down the pipe when you need it is more useful than one bound up in the action! | |||
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Rob, I had the same problem with my Model 70 in 416 Rem. Mag. At the suggestion of one of the gunsmiths here on AR I also went to the inferior rn solids and haven't had a misfeed since. I really like the idea of the flat noses and suspect they are probably superior bullets but if I wanted a single shot then I would use my Ruger #1. RN solids were an easy fix for me. Regards, Don Trust only those who stand to lose as much as you do when things go wrong. | |||
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I for one totally refuse to sacrifice the most important part of any hunt, for anything, and that is the absolute best, most reliable, terminal performance that I can obtain just because it is an Easy Fix! No one, and most certainly NOT MYSELF, has ever, not once, said that a round nose solid would not work, has not worked and would never work. Occasionally they do work! But they are very far from being the optimum bullet of choice for many tasks at hand. I have shot elephants with them, I have shot elephants with the far superior properly designed FN SOlids, and there is a big difference between the two. I have shot buffalo with RN solids, and I have shot buffalo with properly designed FN Solids as well, there is no comparison between the two. I have shot hippo with RN SOlids, and I have shot hippo with FN Solids, of proper design of course, and once again, there is no comparison between the two. I have never lost an animal because it was shot with a RN Solid, so obviously it killed the animal. But in each and every single case, a properly designed FN Solid would have been more consistent, gave better performance, and would have and is, more reliable in every way. If you believe otherwise, fine do as you please, that is up to you. If you rather do the easy fix, that's why barnes made the RN solids for you people, that much prefer the easy fix. I for one will not just settle for the EASY FIX. I want to go to the field with the very best bullet, that will give me the best terminal performance to give me the very best chances of success, if I do my job properly. I do obsess over bullets as Dave states, the reason---The Bullet does all the work, all the heavy lifting, the bullet is the reason for your success, or failure in many cases. To believe otherwise, because it is just easier, is folly and misguided. Millions of hunters indeed go to the field each year with very poor choices of bullets. Some do not even realize what bullet they have for the mission at hand, expanding, solid, either way. Many are successful with these poor choices, and MANY ARE NOT. If you are hunting whitetails at home, there is not much at stake by choosing the inferior bullet design, if you are hunting Dangerous Game there is much at stake. It is not a game to be taken lightly, nor a game to look for the Easy Fix! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I am so glad that the feeding problems other manufacturers have with flat nose solids are not our problems. | |||
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You guys that think you are "fixing" the feed failure by switching to a RN instead of having the gun properly tuned to feed FN bullets are kidding yourselves. If the gun won't feed the FN reliably, you can bet your bottom dollar that when the butter gets thin and things go to crap, the rifle that really just needs a $150 tuning is likely to stop feeding the RN bullets as well while under stress. Why not just tune the rifle to perform properly and shoot the best bullet available? A buffalo hunt in Zim costs upwards of $12,000. Bull Ele, $25,000 +. Much more in other countries. $150 gunsmith bill is out of the question?  Of course, if you just have a big bore for punching holes in paper ... disregard all of the above! | |||
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Michael: I knew I was going to catch hell.  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Rob, Here is another solution to your problem. If you think you need the extra penetration that a FN solid gives you but want reliable feeding, try the Woodleigh 550 grain RN solid loaded to 2,150 fps. I promise you that it will penetrate farther than and 500 grain FN solid and will feed as reliably as the 500 grain RN solids. As a matter of personal experience, I have never had insufficient penetration from a 500 grain .458 RN solid at 2,150 fps on elephant or buffalo. 465H&H | |||
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  Dave and I are Pals! For those who might not know! And of course, he knew I would give him hell regardless, but much of my "EASY FIX" sermon, was not directed to Dave! LOL 465HH  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Gentlemen, I have not hunted Africa therefore do not have the experience that many of you do...so I have to draw knowledge from the written histories of those who do have this experience going back to the early cordite and smokeless powder users. From this history I am lead to understand that not all FMJ bullets are constructed equal, the Rigby FMJ bullets being the best while many others failing due to construction deficiencies. History tells me that monometal bullets have a similar jaded past. In todays world we have a similar situation with FMJ and monometal bullets with their failings being either component construction or a less than optimal design. Woodleigh is touted by many as the 'best selection' for FMJ bullets yet even Woodleigh has introduced their monometal Hydro bullet which Woodleigh' touts as giving greater terminal performance. We have North Fork while is now introducing their 3rd generation FN monometal bullet design which is reported to improve upon their known superb performance. We have CEB which whose owner, Dan, worked closely with Michael and Sam to develope the optimal performing BBW#13 FN monometals. And finally we have Barnes who redesigned their FN monometal which has a very good reputation for terminal performance to a RN monometal... Only question is, was Barnes redesign undertaken to improve terminal performance or was it done so that it would feed better in production rifles? Production rifles using multi-caliber/cartridge designed sheet metal magazines and action rails... Myself, I believe this following paragraph statement pretty well summaries the situation correctly...
Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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The latter. Their 'new' ads show the intent of the change. If the ATF ever gets off their (Barnes') ass they also still make the FN solids for purchase. | |||
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Thanks Baxter... The question was rhetorical and I definately should have made that plain in my post. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Word... :-) | |||
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Todd brings up an interesting point here. If a rifle was designed, and in fact built, before some of these bullet designs were available should we then assume that any rifle, to include my Model 70 CRF .416 Rem. Mag, that won't feed ALL bullets available is defective and needs tuning. I'm not sure I buy the argument that a rifle that feeds round nose and spire points reliably and continues to do so, is now doomed to become a miss feed waiting to happen because it is not reliable with FN bullets. Should all DG bolts be sent for tuning even if one has never had a miss feed with his chosen ammo? Plus, what if I tuned for the old Barnes FN solids, then found out the CEB wouldn't feed. Or Northforks, or heaven forbid those DGSs Hornady puts out. Now I still would have an unreliable rifle because it was tuned for a specific FN or would all FNs now feed? Rather than send a third rifle off this year I will relegate the Model 70 CRF I purchased because it was the be all to end all of DG bolts and get a double. I think I will just show this thread to my wife as further justification of why I really need a .470 double. Now that is progress all the way around and I know it will feed ANY bullet. In case she doesn't buy the argument for the double who offers the $150 fix the feed tuneup? I'll pay it just to see if someone can actually cure the problem as I sort of like the FN bullets myself which is why I contacted a well known "make it feed" gunsmith to start with--and was told use RN solids. Regards, Don Trust only those who stand to lose as much as you do when things go wrong. | |||
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Don, I would think the many B&M and MDM rifles that Michael has had built from the M70 WSM and Classic (300 RUM) actions with his success feeding multiple brands of FN bullets (plus the many prototype bullets that Sam generates) should be a quick and easy answer to whether the gun tuneup from a knowledgable and competent BB-DG gunsmith is worthwhile. Something we all should remember is that our mass produced rifles are designed to successfully feed RN to Spitzer shaped nose profile bullets including the higher dollar lower production DG-BB rifles. I am unaware of any mass manufacturer that states their bolt rifle is factory tuned for 100% reliable feeding of properly designed FN bullets. In the words of my gunsmith, "FN bullets are a pain in the a_s to get to reliably feed from both rails but it can be done, you just have to take your time and work each rail to assure the cartridge feeds properly from each rail then perhaps tune the feed ramp so that the bullet doesn't hang up and your good to go - presuming the factory hasn't screwed up the rails or ramp." So not necessarily defective, it's just a case of the factories not spending the $ for the extra effort to fine tune their BB-DG rifles to properly function with FN Solids. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Let's not forget that their is a radius edge on the BBW 13 profile AND a 13 degree conical nose. If your rifle does not feed these bullets you have a rifle proble not a bullet problem. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Lets see, I have 4 Winchester M70 458 Lotts, 2 Winchester M70 458 Winchesters, 4 416 Rem Winchester M70s, all straight from the factory, some from the Old Custom Shop, some not, every single one of them feed and function with BBW#13s & Barnes Banded FN Solids. And retain. The two 470 Capsticks from the Custom Shop would not retain or feed, but Brian sorted those out in short order, now both feed and retain anything you want to feed through them. Only problem with those, I would have to get Dan to run some .477s for me, not .474s as both barrels are over sized, as everyone here already knows.
I don't give a RATS ASS how well know the GREAT GUNSMITH is, nor damned WHO HE IS. The SOB is working for me--I pay the bills--He does not tell me I should use RN BULLETS! I will very Gdamed quick find another gunsmith that is not near as lazy as that one! AND--Whoever it is, You can direct them straight to ME and tell them I SAID SO to their damned face! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Calm down Michael its Sunday! I do agree a new gunsmith would be in order. | |||
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OK--let me try this again. It is not my intention to give anyone a stoke. Boomstick--based on what you said I will order a box of the CEBs and see how they feed. I have not tried them to date. Assuming they feed and function wonderfully in my rifle then my original point/question still stands: 1) Is a rifle reliable if it reliability feeds the bullets you intend to use or must it feed all bullets in order to be reliable? 2) Either post or PM me a gunsmith recommendation since that is what I am really looking for in this post I'm looking forward to trying the bullets. Regards, Don Trust only those who stand to lose as much as you do when things go wrong. | |||
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Don Of course you can take that to the extreme--If you look hard enough, you can find a bullet that your rifle will not feed! Barnes Banded Flat nose solids have a 65% meplat of caliber, BBW#13s have a 67% meplat of caliber, and actually in Winchester M70s these bullets feed very reliably in all my big bore Winchesters, which is over 50 + in 416 caliber and over. I cannot speak for Rugers, CZs, or any other "Off Brand" cheap made rifles.  Obviously you see I am a Winchester fan. The new design North Forks are 68% meplat of caliber. These are designed to feed through bolt guns. Should you take a bullet that has a 70% or 75% meplat of caliber, most likely it will not feed in any bolt gun, including the Winchesters. So absolutely you can find a bullet if you look hard enough that will not feed. And no, at that point, your rifle must not FEED ALL BULLETS. Not all are designed to feed through a bolt gun.Properly designed Flat Nose solid meplat size is from 65% to 68% to feed through bolt guns and still provide OPTIMUM Terminal Performance. A larger meplat still serves to excellent terminals, but above 70% penetration depth starts to fall off. Below 65% stability during terminals comes into question, and then other factors such as twist rate, velocity and others start to have an effect. Most of the time, if a Win M70 feeds the barnes, it will feed the North Fork and the BBW#13 and the reverse. SSK Industries does all my work in this area, Speak to Brian, 740-264-0176. Unless there is some sort of factory flaw, or if someone else has monkeyed with your rifle, then this really should be an easy fix. Since you say you have not tried BBW#13s, what bullet have you tried and is an issue? Also, if you send the rifle to Brian, I will send some 416 Remington dummy rounds for him to work with in it. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hmmm, Michael, with all those same-caliber rifles, shouldn't you trade some of them in on cases of Grey Goose? That should help keep your blood pressure down.By the way, Have been using CEB 370 and 400 grainers in my Browning Lever Rifle in .450 marlin and have not had a failure to feed yet! And tremendous accuracy. Max .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Sam: I could feel Michaels blood pressure spike all the way out here in Nebraska...LOLOLOLOL Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I'll just In case there was massive splatter.  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Just think how bad it would be if I did not take all the "Calm" meds! I am pretty sure I took them yesterday   Max I am busy sending a bunch of medium bores to new homes now! Figured I will never use them as long as I am alive, move them out, move more real rifles in! Its very difficult on my nerves to think about selling any of my big bore Winchesters however. That is just not going to happen, even the common calibers like the 458s/416s. Even though I will never carry another 24 inch bolt gun again, I have a hard time thinking of those not being around anymore, especially since I have spent many days in the field with many of them, and had some good adventures with them. I will just keep them around to remind me how heavy and long they are. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores CEB BBW Solid - suggestions for feeding concerns?
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