The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Trouble with 404 JeffGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hi all I've got a CZ 550 Classic Safari in 404 Jeff. It shoots 400 gr TSX and 400gr Rhino Solid Shank Softs very accurately. However it will not stabilise 400gr Barnes Solids or Rhino solids. They keyole at all ranges. All rounds are in the 2400fps velocity range. Any thoughts or alternative bullets choices are appreciated. | ||
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| One of Us |
Looks to me like you've already answered you own question. You have 2 loads that group accurately. Load a couple hundred of each and have at it. | |||
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one of us |
Any other two really but I'd be inclined to try Woodleigh SP or PSP and GS Custom FNMS or GS Custom FNMS and GS custom HVs. FWIW, I use Woodleigh PSP & GS Custom FNMS and they shoot absolutely to the same POI in my .404. I find the trick with Woodleigh bullets (esp) is to pay very close attention to the terminal velocity info printed on the box. | |||
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| One of Us |
Twist too slow? Barrel diameter too big? Seems like a good question to investigate deeper. | |||
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Peter, 2,400 fps is smoking along for a 404J, although it is being done now in more modern rifles. A solid copper bullet is not as dense as one containing lead, so they are longer for a given weight, and may not stabilize at the rifle's twist rate. I would try Woodleigh solids that contain lead, and perhaps slow it down to 2,250 or 2,300 fps. | |||
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There was a thread sometime back about Cz rifles in 404 having key-holing issues. If I recall, the issue was the 404 barrels that McGowan supplied to CZ. IIRC the barrels were .425", which is a bit over spec. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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thanks for the info. The Barnes solids have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .838, the rhinos have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .934. The Barnes TSX has a nominal diameter of .422 ( and is MOA for 3 shots at 100yds) and a bearing surface of .910. The bore of the rifle is .423. It would seem that twist rate is OK, given that it shoots bullets of relative bearing surface well. I will need to find some bullets that are actually .423 diameter and give them a shot. | |||
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One of Us |
I would also be trying the Woodleigh cup and core solid or any other similar bullet. Your barrel at .423" is standard for the 10.75 calibre as used in the Mausers. Many early English .404 barrels were tight even down to .418" so the cup and cores were generally soft enough to swage to the bore size. Conversely they also probably rivet slightly to fit a larger bore on firing. My old Mauser at .423" handles the cup and core solids, RWS and Norma, perfectly. | |||
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call CZ, talk to Jason -- another member had a 404 with an oversized barrel .. barnes would keyhole at 25 and 50 ... it was resolved to his satisfaction ... which is more than i can say about ALL the other mass producers of bolt 404s in this country ... oh, wait, there isn't any opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Thanks Jeff, I will go that route if the Hornady DGS don't work. Hornady assures me they are .423 cal. BTW the Woodleighs are .421 cal as are Barnes and Rhino. | |||
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| one of us |
Peter: My CZ .404 shoots Barnes TSX's very well, but with the Barnes solids, it will only group 11" at 60 yards - yes, 11". I just gave up & only use the Barnes TSX's & Swift A-Frames (it shoots those good also). If I hunt with it, I just shoot TSX's as solids. ____________________________ .470 & 9.3X74R Chapuis' Tikka O/U 9.3X74R Searcy Classics 450/.400 3" & .577 C&H .375 2 1/2" Krieghoff .500 NE Member Dallas Safari Club | |||
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| One of Us |
you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded SSR | |||
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Hi Frank I've got no issue with using the 400gr TSX on everything but with hippo and elephant I really need a good solid. I have a good shooting Model 70 in 416 Rem if the 404 doesn't come about. | |||
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Cross I've got some NF bullets on the way. My issue with them is they are only 380gr and this comprimises Sectional Density quite a bit. I like to keep SD above .300for the big stuff. I will report on their performance however. | |||
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Sectional density for a 380 grain bullet of .423 diameter is .303 BTW. NF is in the process of developing a 430 grain .423 bullet, also. I think that it is designed to shoot stuff in China... by penetrating through the entire earth. Sectional density, of course, is one of the factors in penetration, but bullet stability, meplat, bullet construction and the phase of the moon are also important. Lately, I've been shooting Hornady DGS bullets exclusively and have had great results on both brain and body shots on elephants, but when I begin reloading again, I'll certainly feel comfortable with 380 grain NF FPS in my .404 Jeffery at 2300 fps or so.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Sorry Judge, typo on the .300 it was supposed to read .310. Not sure if there is a whole lot of difference but its the number I work with. A 430gr NF will certainly be a good one based on my experience with their 400gr 416 cup point solid. | |||
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one of us |
I don't think it's twist rate, the TSX is a much longer bullet than the mono solids. I have no issues in my own 404j w/ the old or new banded Barnes. Did you mic the bullets, make sure they are not undersized for the bore? LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I used the North Fork 380 grain Softs, out of my 404 Jeffery, on Buffalo and PG, they worked perfectly. Nork Fork sent me an email within the last few days stating the 430 grain .423 bullets should be available in 30 days or so. I would not hesitate to use the 380 grain .423 NF Flat Nose Solids on Elephant...that was my plan before I heard of the 430s. Either 380s or 430 North Forks FN Solids will be what I use when I hunt Elephant  Certainly your choice but I agree with Jeff, I would talk to CZ about a fix... Best of luck! | |||
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You bet Fred, see post # 8 | |||
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| One of Us |
I shoot the Hornady DGS and DGX in my CZ 404 over reloader 17 at the amounts recomended in the new Hornady manual. Both bullets are quite accurate and not as pricey as most of the other alternatives. I just received 250 400 grain DGX from powder valley. They have the best prices if your willing to wait on delivery. I put a Nikon Monarch 2-8 on mine. It is a great scope for the rifle. Cliff NRA Life Member CMP Distinguished Rifleman NRA Master, Short and Long Range | |||
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Update: The 400gr Hornady DGS stabilise nicley, accuracy is not moa but the bullets are not hitting the target sideways and I believe I can tighten groups somewhat (2 inch @ 100yds isn't terrible). Next problem is the DGS won't feed with an OAL less than 3.65 inch (rails were tuned for 400gr TSX). This doesn't work with the factory cannelure. I need a crimo system that will work on smooth bullet ie. no cannelure. I do not have 6 weeks to wait for Lee to make me a custom Factory Crimp. Is there another factory crimo system available? Thanks Peter | |||
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One of Us |
Being able to make a 1/2 hour Drive to Winfield is one of the FEW advantages to where I live vs. the Texas Coastal Plains I still call home.  /  Caleb | |||
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| Moderator |
I can loan you my Corbin groove tool. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| new member |
End result is I have sent the rifle to Martini and Hagen for feed rail adjustment. Will let you know how it works. | |||
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| one of us |
I wouldn't worry about SD on the 380grNF, it will penetrate fine run 2100fps & up. They won't quite penetrate a slight 1/4 away broadside on a good size buff, but that is the point of a soft, to not over penetrate. The left one is a 20yd wetpack test & the right from my 75yd buff.   LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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