Trouble with 404 Jeff

28 March 2011, 01:12

peter338

Hi all

I've got a CZ 550 Classic Safari in 404 Jeff. It shoots 400 gr TSX and 400gr Rhino Solid Shank Softs very accurately. However it will not stabilise 400gr Barnes Solids or Rhino solids. They keyole at all ranges. All rounds are in the 2400fps velocity range.

Any thoughts or alternative bullets choices are appreciated.

28 March 2011, 01:51

Flags

Looks to me like you've already answered you own question. You have 2 loads that group accurately. Load a couple hundred of each and have at it.

28 March 2011, 01:59

shakari

Any other two really but I'd be inclined to try Woodleigh SP or PSP and GS Custom FNMS or GS Custom FNMS and GS custom HVs.

FWIW, I use Woodleigh PSP & GS Custom FNMS and they shoot absolutely to the same POI in my .404.

I find the trick with Woodleigh bullets (esp) is to pay very close attention to the terminal velocity info printed on the box.

28 March 2011, 03:05

fourbore

Twist too slow? Barrel diameter too big?

Seems like a good question to investigate deeper.

28 March 2011, 03:14

Biebs

Peter, 2,400 fps is smoking along for a 404J, although it is being done now in more modern rifles. A solid copper bullet is not as dense as one containing lead, so they are longer for a given weight, and may not stabilize at the rifle's twist rate. I would try Woodleigh solids that contain lead, and perhaps slow it down to 2,250 or 2,300 fps.

28 March 2011, 04:05

JBrown

quote:
Originally posted by fourbore:
Twist too slow? Barrel diameter too big?

Seems like a good question to investigate deeper.

There was a thread sometime back about Cz rifles in 404 having key-holing issues.

If I recall, the issue was the 404 barrels that McGowan supplied to CZ. IIRC the barrels were .425", which is a bit over spec.

Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown

28 March 2011, 04:48

peter338

thanks for the info.

The Barnes solids have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .838, the rhinos have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .934.

The Barnes TSX has a nominal diameter of .422 ( and is MOA for 3 shots at 100yds) and a bearing surface of .910.

The bore of the rifle is .423. It would seem that twist rate is OK, given that it shoots bullets of relative bearing surface well. I will need to find some bullets that are actually .423 diameter and give them a shot.

29 March 2011, 12:10

eagle27

quote:
Originally posted by peter338:
thanks for the info.

The Barnes solids have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .838, the rhinos have a nominal diameter of .421 and a bearing surface of .934.

The Barnes TSX has a nominal diameter of .422 ( and is MOA for 3 shots at 100yds) and a bearing surface of .910.

The bore of the rifle is .423. It would seem that twist rate is OK, given that it shoots bullets of relative bearing surface well. I will need to find some bullets that are actually .423 diameter and give them a shot.

I would also be trying the Woodleigh cup and core solid or any other similar bullet. Your barrel at .423" is standard for the 10.75 calibre as used in the Mausers. Many early English .404 barrels were tight even down to .418" so the cup and cores were generally soft enough to swage to the bore size. Conversely they also probably rivet slightly to fit a larger bore on firing. My old Mauser at .423" handles the cup and core solids, RWS and Norma, perfectly.

29 March 2011, 22:30

jeffeosso

call CZ, talk to Jason -- another member had a 404 with an oversized barrel .. barnes would keyhole at 25 and 50 ... it was resolved to his satisfaction ...

which is more than i can say about ALL the other mass producers of bolt 404s in this country ... oh, wait, there isn't any

30 March 2011, 02:39

peter338

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
call CZ, talk to Jason -- another member had a 404 with an oversized barrel .. barnes would keyhole at 25 and 50 ... it was resolved to his satisfaction ...

which is more than i can say about ALL the other mass producers of bolt 404s in this country ... oh, wait, there isn't any

Thanks Jeff, I will go that route if the Hornady DGS don't work. Hornady assures me they are .423 cal.

BTW the Woodleighs are .421 cal as are Barnes and Rhino.

30 March 2011, 06:18

Frank Beller

Peter: My CZ .404 shoots Barnes TSX's very well, but with the Barnes solids, it will only group 11" at 60 yards - yes, 11". I just gave up & only use the Barnes TSX's & Swift A-Frames (it shoots those good also).
If I hunt with it, I just shoot TSX's as solids.

30 March 2011, 06:32

Cross L

you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded

SSR

31 March 2011, 00:47

peter338

quote:
Originally posted by Frank Beller:
Peter: My CZ .404 shoots Barnes TSX's very well, but with the Barnes solids, it will only group 11" at 60 yards - yes, 11". I just gave up & only use the Barnes TSX's & Swift A-Frames (it shoots those good also).
If I hunt with it, I just shoot TSX's as solids.

Hi Frank

I've got no issue with using the 400gr TSX on everything but with hippo and elephant I really need a good solid. I have a good shooting Model 70 in 416 Rem if the 404 doesn't come about.

31 March 2011, 00:49

peter338

quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded

SSR

Cross

I've got some NF bullets on the way. My issue with them is they are only 380gr and this comprimises Sectional Density quite a bit. I like to keep SD above .300for the big stuff. I will report on their performance however.

31 March 2011, 01:02

JudgeG

Sectional density for a 380 grain bullet of .423 diameter is .303 BTW. NF is in the process of developing a 430 grain .423 bullet, also. I think that it is designed to shoot stuff in China... by penetrating through the entire earth.

Sectional density, of course, is one of the factors in penetration, but bullet stability, meplat, bullet construction and the phase of the moon are also important.

Lately, I've been shooting Hornady DGS bullets exclusively and have had great results on both brain and body shots on elephants, but when I begin reloading again, I'll certainly feel comfortable with 380 grain NF FPS in my .404 Jeffery at 2300 fps or so.

quote:
Originally posted by peter338:
quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded

SSR

Cross

I've got some NF bullets on the way. My issue with them is they are only 380gr and this comprimises Sectional Density quite a bit. I like to keep SD above .300for the big stuff. I will report on their performance however.

31 March 2011, 03:00

peter338

quote:
Originally posted by JudgeG:
Sectional density for a 380 grain bullet of .423 diameter is .303 BTW. NF is in the process of developing a 430 grain .423 bullet, also. I think that it is designed to shoot stuff in China... by penetrating through the entire earth.

Sectional density, of course, is one of the factors in penetration, but bullet stability, meplat, bullet construction and the phase of the moon are also important.

Lately, I've been shooting Hornady DGS bullets exclusively and have had great results on both brain and body shots on elephants, but when I begin reloading again, I'll certainly feel comfortable with 380 grain NF FPS in my .404 Jeffery at 2300 fps or so.

quote:
Originally posted by peter338:
quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded

SSR

Cross

I've got some NF bullets on the way. My issue with them is they are only 380gr and this comprimises Sectional Density quite a bit. I like to keep SD above .300for the big stuff. I will report on their performance however.

Sorry Judge, typo on the .300 it was supposed to read .310. Not sure if there is a whole lot of difference but its the number I work with. A 430gr NF will certainly be a good one based on my experience with their 400gr 416 cup point solid.

31 March 2011, 03:27

fredj338

I don't think it's twist rate, the TSX is a much longer bullet than the mono solids. I have no issues in my own 404j w/ the old or new banded Barnes. Did you mic the bullets, make sure they are not undersized for the bore?

31 March 2011, 03:31

jjs

I used the North Fork 380 grain Softs, out of my 404 Jeffery, on Buffalo and PG, they worked perfectly.

Nork Fork sent me an email within the last few days stating the 430 grain .423 bullets should be available in 30 days or so.

I would not hesitate to use the 380 grain .423 NF Flat Nose Solids on Elephant...that was my plan before I heard of the 430s. Either 380s or 430 North Forks FN Solids will be what I use when I hunt Elephant

Certainly your choice but I agree with Jeff, I would talk to CZ about a fix...

Best of luck!

31 March 2011, 04:06

peter338

quote:
Originally posted by fredj338:
I don't think it's twist rate, the TSX is a much longer bullet than the mono solids. I have no issues in my own 404j w/ the old or new banded Barnes. Did you mic the bullets, make sure they are not undersized for the bore?

You bet Fred, see post # 8

31 March 2011, 04:20

Ammoloader

I shoot the Hornady DGS and DGX in my CZ 404 over reloader 17 at the amounts recomended in the new Hornady manual. Both bullets are quite accurate and not as pricey as most of the other alternatives.

I just received 250 400 grain DGX from powder valley. They have the best prices if your willing to wait on delivery.

I put a Nikon Monarch 2-8 on mine. It is a great scope for the rifle.

04 April 2011, 04:42

peter338

Update:

The 400gr Hornady DGS stabilise nicley, accuracy is not moa but the bullets are not hitting the target sideways and I believe I can tighten groups somewhat (2 inch @ 100yds isn't terrible).

Next problem is the DGS won't feed with an OAL less than 3.65 inch (rails were tuned for 400gr TSX). This doesn't work with the factory cannelure. I need a crimo system that will work on smooth bullet ie. no cannelure. I do not have 6 weeks to wait for Lee to make me a custom Factory Crimp.

Is there another factory crimo system available?

Thanks

Peter

05 April 2011, 01:10

cable68

quote:
I just received 250 400 grain DGX from powder valley. They have the best prices if your willing to wait on delivery.

Being able to make a 1/2 hour Drive to Winfield is one of the FEW advantages to where I live vs. the Texas Coastal Plains I still call home.

05 April 2011, 01:17

jeffeosso

I can loan you my Corbin groove tool.

08 April 2011, 01:26

peter338

End result is I have sent the rifle to Martini and Hagen for feed rail adjustment. Will let you know how it works.

09 April 2011, 23:35

fredj338

quote:
Originally posted by peter338:
quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
you might try North Fork bullets also They list a,423 solid cup point and semi-spitzer bonded

SSR

Cross

I've got some NF bullets on the way. My issue with them is they are only 380gr and this comprimises Sectional Density quite a bit. I like to keep SD above .300for the big stuff. I will report on their performance however.

I wouldn't worry about SD on the 380grNF, it will penetrate fine run 2100fps & up. They won't quite penetrate a slight 1/4 away broadside on a good size buff, but that is the point of a soft, to not over penetrate. The left one is a 20yd wetpack test & the right from my 75yd buff.