Hello
I've been trying to locate agunsmith that will alter my winchester 1917 enfield action to 460 weatherby. Sofar no luck ssk says no way action too old, er shaw says action not long enough, they don'trebarrel enfields etc. The action is in great shape had it dye tested for cracks, so ifany ofyou can point me to someone with the know howto do this I would be very gratful.
thanks
RR

Hey RR,
Why 460 Weatherby?
There are lots of others that fit better and thump harder.
Do you have a 1914 bolt for it?
It would help.

Cheers, John

Talk to Dennis Olsen and maybe Wayne at AHR. Either of them could easily do it for you. Yes you'll need the P14 bolt with the M1917 action for a .460 WBY. That action will take anything including a .600Ok. The trouble is, that you are probably looking at over $1K maybe 1.5K these days in gunsmithing. Only the old timers like Denis may have the jigs necessary to clean them up and set them up for a big bore. Dennis is very backed up I hear so be prepared for a long wait too. If Wayne can do it, my guess is the turn-around time will be much less. I don't know if Wayne will touch it though. There is a ton of work involved. Remember, your also taking major action milling and mag box and follower mods or fabrication. Who ever you choose to do this work had better be more of a machinist than a gunsmith, or it will work like crap.
All in all, sell the enfield, if you can and buy a used CZ550 Rifle in .375 or .416 and strip it for the action. You could probably get it to go bang in .460 for under $1K with a new barrel and chamber and bolt face. You'll be many dollars ahead in the end. Trust me on this, I've done complete Big Bore conversions on Enfields myself and know what I'm talking about! I doubt I'd ever do one again given the CZ550 is so cheap and is a proven action.-Rob

what rob said ..
except, buy it in 458 win or ott, rechamber, open boltface, change front sight insert - $1500-2k

enfields TODAY are overrated, unless you DIY
<--has done a bunch of enfields .. seriously, don't bother, only great thing about them is the safety

Dennis Olson just did my Rem 30S (Enfield) from a 25-06 to a 404 Jefferys, takes 3 down and one up and with a 3/8s inch floorplate it will take 4 down and one up..Feeds like s--t through a goose and shoots an inch and under at 100 for 3 shots..Its a tad light at 8.5 lbs, as I had the 25-06 rebored and cut to 22 inches and that gave it a .610 at the crown and thats fine..The recoil is very acceptable to me and its a dream to pack around in the mountains, and it tuned a elk upside down with a Texas heart shot a couple of weeks ago for a friend of mine. My second big bore enfield and my first rebore, and I am very pleased with both. I added some niceties like a quarter rib, barrel band swivel and front sight, recoil pad and reshaped the factory stock..I will use this stock to make a pattern stock, mostly for the inletting and leave a lot of outside wood for the finished pattern. The action is big enough for the 505 Gibbs and the magazine is easily modified to do so..

Thank you all for the helpful advise. Yes I have several P 14 bolts. Actually I have two 1917 actions that I would like to build up. I have straightened the floorplate and I'm trying my hand making my own magazine and follower. The ears of the actions have been recontoured but I don't have the skills or tools neccessary for the other metal work. I was planning to do one in 460 weatherby and the other in 550 magnum. I'll do my own stockwork and have a couple of superb pieces of koa I've been saving. Can any of you give me mr. Olsen's contact info?
Aloha and Mahalo
Randall

Try
http://www.itdcustomgun.com/id4.html

for IT&D Custom. They have done great work for me over many years. The page I listed quoted $60 for sporterizing the rear bridge and $60 for modifying the floorplate. They will weld on a Mod 70 bolt handle for around $70.

I have found a couple more places that quote the work, but I trust these guys the most. The cheapest thing to do is find an old clunker sporter that had the work done in the 50's or 60's. You can buy the whole gun with trigger, mods, and spring replacements for about what the work costs.

The costs in a P14/1917 action are way more than just grinding off the ears and welding on a new bolt handle and reversing the cocking. The simple way to make a mag box is to take three factory .460 wby cartridges and rubber band them together. Now measure with a micrometer the width of the stack. This measurement plus .030 is the inside width of your new mag box. the length is the stack length plus 0.030 also. Mauser developed the Cosine Rule for this, but I've always found this trick to work. Depending on the thickness of the metal you use for the mag box,you then know the width and length of the box you'll need. The depth of the box depends on how many rounds you want it to hold,your follower, spring and floorplate. Yup you'll need to custom make a stock to fit it now. Once you do this you'll soon find that the bottom of the action needs to be milled out to accept the new box. It also needs to fit tightly. The feed ramp and bottom locking lugs will probably need to be milled for the box and re-shaped. Take too much off and the action is ruined. This is NOT a job for someone who has never done it before. With the action milled and the box in place, then you work on the follower until the cartridge feeds up correctly into the rails on both sides. The P14 bolt face needs to be opened up for the .460 and the extractor reshaped. Finally the rails and the ramp are reshaped until feeding is 100%. Those are the major items that need to be done and then there are other smaller issues like lapping the P14 locking lugs and possibly bushing the firing pin hole in the bolt if its pitted.
You can always read a book on performing EYE surgery, but some things are best left to a professional. As I said before, some are not worth doing at all these days. There was a time when these actions were worth the effort, but not now. Best of luck and hope this helps.
Last number for Dennis Olsen I have is 406-826-3790-Rob

Robgunbuilder's post indicates this conversion is a lot of work, which tells me it would be cheaper to use the CZ550 mentioned above.

Gunbroker, that is where I found about 8 of
my Enfields. Great therapy.
We have 4 in 585HE. One in 700H 3.25,one in 585SHE
one in 16ga FH. And extra barrels to switch to
700SHE, 550Mag,etc. And extra bolts, actions..

You can put 585HE in with single
stack mag with bottom opened up and redone sear
spring to make the room.Ed

Rob,
I might add that using a Rem 30, 30-S or 720 can simplify the job somewhat and these guns can be picked up relitively cheap if you shop around..Also if you use a smaller caliber such as a 416 Rem, 404 Jefferys, and perhaps even a 416 Rigby then you can save a few bucks on conversion..Just food for thought...Your posted tel. no. for Dennis Olson still good..406-826-3790.

Hansen,
My reason for preference to the Rem 30-S or its counterparts is the finished rifle is much slimmer and streamline than the IMO rough CZs. Also the conversion to the 40 calibers is not much more that welding up a bit and tweeking the action, and adding a bolt handle..Of course one needs a barrel and can add all the candy he desires...My latest is a 404 Jefferys, rebore, quarter rib, barrel band rear, front and and swivel, The metal work cost no more than a Mauser or any other action,

I glassed the original stock,basically shaped it for a English classic leaving extra wood, glass bedded it and will use that for a pattern stock

Look, unless a guy just has to have an Enfield, or just wants to learn advanced gunsmithing, converting an Enfield to a Big Bore is plain money down the drain these days. That money is better spent on a nice stock, sights, scopes etc. Yup there is a reason many of these actions wind up on "Gunbroker" or are plain given away. Buy a CZ550 or Montana PH action. Personally, I'd just lie down till the Enfield idea goes away, but its still a free country and you can do as you please with your money.Here is a better idea. Think RSM in .460WBY! Nice Huh?

Ray- Whens the last time you saw a 720? I've seen one in my whole life and bought it on the spot. They were Military Trophy rifles and are jewels. Mine is unfired ANIB and with the guy who won its name engraved in the floorplate with all the paperwork.Even has a document on the Navy shooting competition it was awarded for. Cutting one up for this would be a tragic waste. You could trade a nice Wby .460 with scope for one and get some money too. Yup 30's or 30S's can be found but few loose actions and the guns run $700-1K on Gunchoker. Watch out for those that were D&T'd for side mounted scopes though. At least the cosmetics of these are done. Internals are the same issue as above.-Rob

Rob,
I too have seen ONE 720

Jeffe- Your doing good with that given that I propably have more total gun shows under my belt and it took me 40 years to see my first one. Even Scott Duff once told me had had personally seen or been offered under six. They are extremely rare. Most people don't even know they exist, much less ever seen one. I'd trade my .460 Wby with scope for another one (depending on condition) anyday.-Rob

I LOVE the enfield action, at over the last dozen years have had 3 or 4 actions (either alone or in unfinished projects) and one rifle. I have the rifle still and it will never leave.

That said, my favorite part is the safety as somebody else mentioned, cosmetics aside it is almost as comfortable as a tang safety, but much safer (most tang safeties are just trigger interrupts no?) And that safety isn't enough to make up for the CZ550's awesomeness as a platform. Unless I got a great deal or could do the work myself I wouldn't do another 1917 as much as it hurts to admit. And now with CZ's extensive list of factory chamberings......

Red

One of the reasons I wanted to use an enfield action is that I too am left handed. Didn't seem like it would be wise to buy a cz550 discard the stock change the barrel because I wanted a heavier profile in stainless etc. I really appreciate all the helpful advise and have contacted a few smiths and waiting on replies. Tried E.R. Shaw and got an email from Chris who wrote that it was impossible, that theaction was not long enough! Told him ever hear about acompany called a square,he did'nt reply. JD Jones from SSK said "no way, action almost 100 years old". But I figured others have done it must be practical. I fully expect this project to not be cheap, but don't want to spend 4or 5 grand on a plinker, or to hunt the occasional wily Hawaiian mongoose. But if looks like the cz is a better way to go I'll do that.
Ahoha
RR

buy the cz, lefty, in 375 .. someone (me) might sell you a take off cz 458 barrel ..

or, send the 375 to Mcgowen .. and have them make it a heavier profile, as they make all the barrels for the cz custom shop...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
buy the cz, lefty, in 375 .. someone (me) might sell you a take off cz 458 barrel ..

or, send the 375 to Mcgowen .. and have them make it a heavier profile, as they make all the barrels for the cz custom shop...

Very good advice, used it myself

Rob,
I have picked up two at gunshows in Idaho or Salt Lake City,? can't remember which..Sold one as a collector and the other got used on a custom 500 Jefferys. I also had a Gary Gowdy custom that I belive was a 720 but wouldn't swear to it. I have a buddy in Twin that has one in a 280 that he built up..Nice guns..All my big bores are 30s or 30-S and the the 30-S is as nice as the 720 IMO..I didn't know they were all that scarce. I'll be more observant in the future and keep an eye out, nobody comes to Idaho so they don't know what some of these guns are worth..

There's a 720 in 458 winchester for sale on gunbroker right now, I don't know if the price is fair, it appears to be an older custom.

I'd love to pickup some 30s, because I think other than a bolt handle there isn't anything they need, but seems they're always 650 plus.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by rrob692326:
One of the reasons I wanted to use an enfield action is that I too am left handed. Didn't seem like it would be wise to buy a cz550 discard the stock change the barrel because I wanted a heavier profile in stainless etc. I really appreciate all the helpful advise and have contacted a few smiths and waiting on replies. Tried E.R. Shaw and got an email from Chris who wrote that it was impossible, that theaction was not long enough! Told him ever hear about acompany called a square,he did'nt reply. JD Jones from SSK said "no way, action almost 100 years old". But I figured others have done it must be practical. I fully expect this project to not be cheap, but don't want to spend 4or 5 grand on a plinker, or to hunt the occasional wily Hawaiian mongoose. But if looks like the cz is a better way to go I'll do that.
Ahoha
RR

AHR will build a rifle from CZ receiver. Don't have to buy complete rifle. Brownells sometimes have CZ actions in stock.

Ray- The 720 is rare enough that I've actually seen a fake made from a 1917 with a 30 bolt. stock and lettering gave it away. Even remarked like a 720. Anybody find a original you give me a call.-Rob

Rob,
A fake would work just fine for a conversion to a big bore. I used to see them around from time to time at gunshows in Idaho and like I said had two of them..I still see 30-S and 30s...I paid $350 for my 30-S and 500 for another one locally, both were in good enough condition for building up nice custom rifles. I see them for sale at about $600 or a bit more on the internet, but I don't know it they are getting that price for them..They are my prefered action for the big, big bores.

I agree - best for DIY. I've abandoned my Enfield projects because I can buy new complete rifles that are better - like Winchester Model 70 Safari Express and Ruger 416.

Austin Hunter,
You missed the point, The Enfield and Rem actions are large enough to build the real big bores bolt action rifles on like the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jefferys and others, granted you can have a 416 or 458 on a Mod. 70 or Ruger and they are excellent cartridges, but starting with the 404 and up the Enfield has more room and works out much better and at less cost IMO..

I understand one can build a 404 on a Mod. 70 and a 98 Mauser, I have done more than a few of them on those actions, but I was never satisfied as they are a blivet, thats 10 lbs. of s---t in a 5 lb bag, I just like more room for my 404s...

If one wants a 416 Rem or Ruger then the Mauser is the only way to go IMO..not that I don't like the mod 70, I do..

well they are expensive but I seem to do ok with them. still cheaper for me than a new cz or anything else plus the useable safety is the difference for me. if you have a big pile of money and can wait im trying to ramp up to a improved model 30 action to sell

also guys the p14 bolt thing is bs. its easyer to open up a 17 bolt and reshape the extractor than to try and use the 14 bolt just my .02 on that. the magazine box is so easy its silly. just drill out the rivits and turn the damn thing inside out. 458 lott is a walk with this thing the weatherby is not one of my favorites so I would not bother with that. also just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
also guys the p14 bolt thing is bs. its easyer to open up a 17 bolt and reshape the extractor than to try and use the 14 bolt just my .02 on that.

You have missed the point regarding really large rimmed cartridges. The 1917 bolt doesn't work.

FWIW my first 416 Rigby was built on a 1917 Remington action that was box stock. Sent it to Hobaugh. He rebarreled it, opened the bolt face, adjusted the rails, modified the original magazine box, milled the "ears" off, and in a very unique way, modified the follower. It fed and shot great. The polish on the barrel, which he called his basic polish, appeared to be about a 220 grit polish.
I sold the gun several years ago and the current owner has shot it since then and never had a problem.
Hobaugh used the original 1917 bolt in this conversion. For all intents and purposes it is the same cartridge case the 460 Weatherby.

Ray sent me some pictures of his 404 30-S. It's impressive. Really nice work. I have a Remington 30-S that I am now thinking about doing the same thing to (including caliber) that Ray has done.

My 30-S rifle cost me $400 a couple of years ago. The action is a lot nicer than a normal Enfield. Compared to a 1917, the 30-S action I have is far smoother, seems tighter toleranced (no bolt wiggle), and the cocking cam mechanism is machined entirely differently than the 1917 to allow for cock on opening (not the same thing as a 1917 cock on opening kit). Except for the dogleg bolt, the action is darn near identical to the one 720 that I have handled.

There might be cheaper ways of doing this project, but part of the fun for me is planning and doing things a step at a time. I don't know about a 460, but a Remington 30-S in 404 sounds like a classic to me.

I only have 500 bucks in 8 Enfield actions.
When you have projects as a poor man they do the job.
Most important, hey do have the room for long cases and
I take off the ears and at same time the
port is opened for long cases, real easy to do.
Then I cut, straighten and weld bolt handle
out longer. Just a days work for all above.
The P14 extractor works on my 585HE with
a little rework. For smaller H&H base cases a Ruger 77
magnum extractor works ok for me..Ed

Look, you absolutely need a P14 bolt to have enough rim left on the bolt to control the cartridge when you start going for cases of 505 and above. A 1917 enfield bolt leaves virtually no rim. If you want to use the action for a smaller cartridge like a .404 and maybe a .416 the 1917 bolt will work but not for something that needs a bigger boltface. Personally I'd use a P14 bolt even for a 460 wby, as they are readily available and there is more metal left in a critical place even for a .460 boltface. Remember, you still need to have the boltface opened up whichever bolt you deceide to go with. This is one of those obvious things you learn when you actually think things through and do them properly. Oh yeah! Good luck on just hammering out the mag box for a 460 wby. Let us know how you make out!
Ray- Too much work with too little gain for me to bother with a Rem 30 or 30-S much less a old 1917 warhorse. For a .460 wby Your money ahead if you start out with a CZ550 unless you can do all the work yourself. Just don't cut up any all original 720's you run across without talking to me first. -Rob

I built a .338 Lapua on a 1917 enfield.
Had I.T.&D open the bolt face and thread and chamber an Adams&Bennet .338 barrel with a 1/10 twist, conoured to a 5.5 profile.
Dennis Olson modified the mag box and follower and worked the action rails, feeds smooth as can be.
Timney trigger set at 2lbs.
Bedded the action in a Richards laminated stock.
Mounted a 6.5x20 Vortex scope.
Shoots 285 hpbt @ 2800fps into 1/2 groups.
Have shot steel to 1000yds.
The whole project was very enjoyable and I only have $600 invested, minus scope.
Its my poor mans Lapua, so build your Enfield and have fun, I did!

416 rigby bolt face modified 1914

416 rem on a 1917 bolt note much larger extractorand plenty of room left I can hold a mic up to it if you like but the two bolts are interchaingeable but for bolt face that you have to open up anyway

As I said for a .416 it wont matter technically which bolt you use, but for anything bigger it has to be a P14. You see that hunk of metal where the ejector goes through on the P14 bolt? Thats all thats basically left to control the cartridge during feeding and ejection on larger cartridges. On a 1917 bolt guess what, it doesn't exist. That hunk of metal on the P14 bolt is the ONLY REASON why a Enfield action has ANY desirability at all for building a Big Bore in my opinion. Even on the .416, per your pics there is virtually no rim left, thats why I and most gunsmiths who know a few things about the Enfield actions like to use P14 bolts. We are not just making things up. The last enfield I built was for a 470 and it uses a .416 Ribgy case. I used a P14 bolt and am glad I did as I think it provides a inexpensive margin of safety. You drop a .416 bolt like that and that thin rim breaks off or dents, what are you gonna do? Maybe you'll never have a problem, but then again maybe not. I had that happen to a friend not long ago, and replacing the bolt and re-headspacing cost him quite a few bucks. We used a P14 bolt. Of course your free to do as you please. Let us know how it works out for you. -Rob

G Hansen,
I can send you a picture of my 30-S Rem. 404 Jefferys but keep in mind the meta is finished but the stock on it is a pattern stock or truck gun stock, whichever the case may be..I will use it as a pattern to have a custom stock turned for it at some point. I will need your email to send pictures as I cannot post pictures on blogs..

I have a custom 30S in 300 H&H that will be available shortly, as soon as I bring the finish up to my standards but am not very computer savvy. If someone wouldn't mind posting pics for me send me your email.

Disassembly's M-30 300H&H:

I picked up a 720 on one of the Proxibid auctions earlier this year for $500, Someone sanded the stock but the metal is just fine. Saving it up for something big someday.
It's the only one I have seen that wasn't a military shooting award gun.

I think they only made about 2400 guns total and over half of that went towards prize guns.