The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Hello from the dark sideGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
Lol! And so was the Mauser 98 - when Lenin was alive!
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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One of Us |
Not sure I understand the Blaser hate, entirely. I don't like the look of them. I don't trust straight-pull bolts, since someone had one driven into his head at our range, not to mention the Ross stuff. and I don't see much point in interchangeable barrels except in jurisdictions with weird gun laws. Generally, having more than one barrel for a rifle creates more licence problems than it solves. Taking one rifle with another barrel to Africa makes no sense to me, either, because you may need that other calibre now, not in five minutes. But that can't be everything. Can someone remind me of the real issues? | |||
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| One of Us |
The blaser is perfect for Africa as a client rifle - super safe, removble trigger, best spare scope mounting system, carry another barrel for plains game. Whole thing fits into a compact case. Looks are subjective. Straight pull is super fast. Blaser r8 is proofed beyond most other rifles. They have an excellent illuminated retice system with their new scope line. Blaser is a much more compact system. It has a much smaller following in US simply because it is a very expensive product - $4k plus. The average european hunter is financially much wealthier than the average us hunter - us hunting is much more egalitarian activity. The us entry point for hunting rifle is sub $500 and today you get some great rifles at the price point. Blaser will be a core rifle in Europe and a niche product in us. Mike | |||
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| Administrator |
Saying the Blaser is super safe is just plain bullshit! I was present when Walter was trying to shoot a pig, and repeatedly ejecting loaded rounds because they misfired because the bolt did not lock properly! I am certain this way at happens on those occasions the rifles blew up - many are on the Internet, and Germsn gunsmith he personally know of at least 27 blowing up! Someone nodges the bolt forward, the bolt does not close properly, but due to a sensitive primer and a long firing pin, the rifle goes off with disastrous results. We have a Blaser Sniper rifle people like to shoot in our range. I give them specific instructions to PUSH the bolt closed before shooting. Put BLASER BLOW UP in Google and see what you get! | |||
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| One of Us |
Might be Walter specific  http://www.blaser-r8.com/#home Given how terribly designed the model 700 Remington was and the zero govt imposed safety standards on us guns. I would buy German proofed guns all day long. I don’t know anything about the r93 but the r8 is super safe. Mike | |||
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| Administrator |
Somehow Google will not let me link to that page. Put BLASER BLOWUP in google search and see what you get! | |||
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| One of Us |
Here is a longer thread from another forum where blow-ups are being discussed and apperantly with people who has inside info in regards to Blaser and the Blaser failure. https://www.24hourcampfire.com...n/424249/type/thread DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
A few years ago one of my German/Namibian PHs thought going to Blaser for a client rifle made all kinds of sense on paper. You could build left hand or right hand multiple calibers in camp and only have to invest in "one" platform. Well the little experiment failed miserably in application. Few clients could master the straight pull with only a few minutes of practice. So there were lots of frustrating stalks that would end with the client completely flustered - not exactly how you want a memorable hunt to go. Switching barrels resulted in a quick trip to the range to ensure zero - again time and expense. Then there was the expense of purchasing way too many options and calibers and scopes when all you really need is two to three calibers to cover most hunting situations - of course that's his mistake. Needless to say, he's back to three client files in traditional Winchester fashion and hasn't looked back. Blaser is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist - but that's the "New" German way. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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One of Us |
That sums it up perfectly. Well almost perfectly. It leaves out one major point which is ...  | |||
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| Administrator |
I have all sorts of rifles, with all sorts of actions. From this silly contraption called Blaser, to Mannlichers with rear locking lugs, to Mauser with straight pulls and moving actions to sniper rifles with two magazines that weighs half a bloody ton! They all shoot, but from a practical point they are nothing but toys! | |||
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| One of Us |
You guys (Saeed Todd) are just curmudgeons who are stuck in your old ways and do not see the light of innovation that is the blaser R8  .  Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Like I said I have no idea of r93 - the r8 is bulletproof. An action tested to 500 jefferies plus is not going to blow up on a 30/06. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Mike, You do realize the max operating pressure on a 30/06 is CIP 58,000 and the 500 Jeffery (not Jefferies BTW) is CIP 48,000 ... Right?  | |||
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| One of Us |
458 Lott then 416 Remington 375 H&H Blazer R8 is well proofed can you say the same thing about Ruger American ? Blaser r8 action passed a German government 200,0000 psi proof test. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Well Todd. Being technical. What is the bolt thrust ratio on a .30-06 versus .500Jeffery?. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| Administrator |
It is not the operating pressure that is the issue. It is a glaring design mistake! I have demonstrated to people many times. With empty rifle, pull the bolt back, and just nudge it forward. on some occasions, it does not close properly! If this happens when one has a sensitive primer, and the rifle goes off, it blows up. Just mentioned ed above, all one has to do is run a Google search for Blaser blow ups. You should be convinced then what a horrible design this funny contra-Timon is. | |||
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| One of Us |
Closing the bolt is a necessity to any bolt action rifle operating I just slam the bolt. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
I don't know enough about Blaser products to have a supportable opinion. I also don't know enough about what it takes to travel to the moon to be interested in spending sufficient resources nor am I interested in allowing some computer to drive my car while I am a passenger. I'm satisfied with being able to travel about on earth with its gravitational limitations, actively involved in the driving of my car, and with the limitations of my M70. The obvious counter to my state of mind is that if people remained satisfied with the status quo, we'd still be walking instead of driving and flying, and for sure there would be nothing like the uses we have for electricity. So there is merit to the more adventurous and unsatisfied among us to seek a better design or product. The result is that each personality type can utilize or explore their interest without impugning the other. So those of us that are satisfied with hundred year old turn-bolt designs can continue to be so, at least until such a time as we are shown the advantages of the new design are sufficient for us to change our religion regarding the M98 and 70. While there are efforts by several to demonstrate the superiority of newer designs, don't count me among the proselytes just yet. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, sticking with the technical aspect of the discussion ... What is the UGLY ratio on a Blaser vs a traditional bolt rifle?  And let's not even go to the UGLY ratio of the S2 vs a real DR!  | |||
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| One of Us |
If one does not like straight pull actions the Mauser 03 and the Sauer 404 do the similar next gen stuff as the Blaser R8. All three are made by the same parent company at the same plant. I spoke to the Mauser guys extensively over 5 years at dsc and they told me to get the Blaser R8 as it is a better rifle. In the same time frame I bought k-11 and k-31 and really liked straight pulls. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Ugly is subjective. I think Blaser synethic models are nice. Wood blasers don’t appeal to me. S2 is ugly. K95 is exceptionally beautiful. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
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| One of Us |
I think I will one day buy a K77 kipplauf. The gunmakers overhere say its a better made gun. http://www.egun.de/market/list...ry=blaser+77&quick=1 DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
A nice one in 6,5x68R http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=7029672 DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
Beautiful I will be getting a k95 as soon as Blaser gets a left hand one in the US. 6.5 creedmoor might be the ideal single shot caliber and I will get one in it. Very knowledgeable person at Blaser told me K95 is the most accurate Blaser rifle. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
The S2 is a lesson in over German technical engineering. Taking an inherently inaccurate double rifle and trying to make it accurate is a waste of time. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
As you know ofcouse Blaser rifles are accurate. A friend of mine has R93 in 6,5x55 I shot with several years ago. Using Norma Diamond line ammo it litteratly made ½-1" groups at 200meters. Not with a heavy match barrel but with a standard barrel. I have had many accurate rifles over the years, but I have only experienced once before such accuracy with a standard out-of-the-box rifle using standard factory ammo. The rifle was a Tikka M65 in .30-06 using RWS target ammunition we could buy on the shootingrange. I have had other rifles that could deliver such accuracy when spending time at the handloading bench finding the perfect load combination. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| One of Us |
I have been told there is no difference in accuracy of Blaser barrels between the standard and the match barrels. The Match barrels are heavier and more expensive and their weight might help shooters shoot better. I am looking forward to shooting these barrels. I don’t think I shoot well enough to judge or validate the accuracy of the Blaser or most other rifle systems. After their dialed in for me I will enjoy whacking a gong at 100 and 300 yards. Mike | |||
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| Administrator |
I think it is very easy to make an accurate rifle today. We use barrels from all the major American barrel makers, like Lilja, Douglas, Shiled, Hart etc. They range from 12 caliber all the way to 45 - have not built a 12 yet, but have several barrels. Every rifle we have built would shoot 3 shots that touch each other - at least. These include the larger bores like 375, 404 and 45s. | |||
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| One of Us |
Agree 100 percent I assume you don’t make a lot of wood stock guns. The ruger American and other $400-$600 rifles are so good and accurate (not pretty) because barrels have become much better for the $$ and synthetic stocks have made bedding much easier and better. The action is largely irrelevant - push controlled fancy circular locking ect We are also at the end of what rifles can achieve in accuracy and efficiency - 50 years they will be pretty similar unless the military does guided ammunition I don’t think the r8 will be replaced in the near future, it already has a very good scope mounting system that was a carry over (tell you how good it was on the r93) removeable trigger, barrel bedding, action good to 200k psi, ect. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks everyone, I think I see now that the straight-pull bolt is the guts of the prejudice. And fair enough. If we look back to the 19th century, we had lever and pump actions that were sophisticated and very fast. However, military armourers saw that adding lock-up to the user's task added much more in strength and reliability than it cost in time lost. | |||
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| Administrator |
It is not the straight pull alone, but that stupid locking mechanism too. | |||
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| one of us |
Reminds me of something O'Connor wrote "Game in the Desert." Year was 1939; he said Arizona had about all the people it would ever have. "Everything that can be invented has been invented" Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899. The military (DARPA) has already created a guided rifle projectile - it is a .50 BMG round. The next big advances in rifles will be laser doppler anemometers. What I have noticed that while rifles are more accurate than ever, people using them can't seem to do so without carting around a three legged rest complete with clamps to hold the rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
In the last fifty years what are the main drivers in improved rifle accuracy and performance Optics - better scopes Synthetic stocks - better bedding Better barrels Better ammunition Action - unlikely as so many good guns are built on 50 or older actions Next 50 years where will improvements come from ? I am always impressed by rifles where I can shoot stuff I cannot see with a naked eye. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
This may seem like a dumb question, but since I know very little about the Blaser I guess I could be considered dumb, regardless, here's the question: How far is the bolt handle moved to accomplish the initial extraction of the cartridge? To clarify, the initial extraction of a cartridge in a turnbolt action (90 degree lift) is the 2-3" movement of the end of the bolt handle that moves the cartridge the 1/16th" or so, out of the chamber- that is, breaking the seal that the cartridge has with the chamber resulting from the firing. | |||
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| one of us |
Custom actions are far better today than 50 year old ones. I know, life ends with a Mauser, but you won't find anyone shooting F class with one...or any other match...at least if they want to win. I know a few rifle rifle builders that will guarantee 1/4 to 3/8 MOA accuracy at long range, but they insist on a custom action among other things. That said, so many guys build super accurate rifles that your point is well taken. Hitting a target at long range depends first and foremost on getting the range: laser rangefinders solved that problem. Next up was scopes that click reliably; Nightforce et al fixed that one. Next up is wind; nothing out there truly measures wind, and that is where lasers could make a big impact. But unlike estimating the range, wind estimation is something you can get pretty good at if you have a place to shoot at extended distances and do it frequently. One thing that could be improved upon is faster initial velocity; current propellants and barrels limit that, but perhaps someone will discover a breakthrough technology - the military is experimenting with rail guns; the same basic technology is used on the Ford class aircraft carrier in place of steam catapults. | |||
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| One of Us |
Interesting info - I shoot max 300 yards at a gong. This stuff about wind ect is very interesting but also a little alien. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
But where will target shooting go when the technology removes all variables and all the bullets can be expected to go in the same hole with no enlargement? Then, will the only issues be who in the squad blinks - or whether some guy actually fires more than one shot at the target, and his others into the wet dirt and grass nearby? | |||
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| one of us |
That has been an issue for a quite some time in the benchrest world, and why there is moving backing paper to record your shots. | |||
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| Administrator |
We were shooting seagulls on the beach years ago with a friend. We were taking turns. I was hitting everything I shot at, and he had about 30% hits. I to;d him he is not allowing eno8gh for wind drift. We were using several rifles, 220 Swift, 22-250, 223 etc. The wind was quite strong. A seagul landed about 300 yards away. And it was facing into the wind. I asked him to aim about two lengths of its beak, ahead of the beak, and fire. He did, and the seagull disintegrated! He was so surprised of how much wind drift and drop there is, even with a 220 Swift. That was years ago, and I saw him a few weeks ago and he was talking about this very occasion! Estimating distance is also very important. A few days ago we were having a picnic on an island here in Sweden. There was a rocky outcrop jotting out of the water, and a friend had a range finder. As a game, he asked each of us to guess how far it was. Everyone was miles away, some were estimating twice as much as it was. I said it was 1 k. Eventually we found out it was 1023 Meters! My wife said “he imagines there is something to shoot there!”  | |||
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