OK - I gave up on my 8x68 on my 1909 Argentine action because I got a Mauser M03 (243 & 308) and added a 8x68 barrel because it was a Mauser needed a European metric round....

I have a 375 H&H already (my biggest cartridge) and want a step up. I really don't want to bugger up the action as it is perfect and never been drilled or tapped - so open sights only. And it has perfect original bottom metal.

I've read a lot of pros/cons both ways.

I was thinking either 416 Taylor with 400 or 430 grain bullets or a 458 Win Mag with 450 grain bullets (maybe 500 grain).

24" barrel.

Thoughts?

An open-sight DGR is a close-range affair anyway, so I'd go with the 458 WM. With modern loads, it's all you need for the biggest game.

If it was me I would go with the....404 Jeffery.

How can anything be compared to the Taylor?

22" barrel 458 lott, loaded down to 2200 fps .. lower pressure than a winmag, and god-only-know how much lower than a 2400fps taylor

duane webbe is your man

The Taylor is deader than dead. The 458 is really the only choice.

YOu already handload since you rock a 8x68 like I do.

Soooo

I would build the Taylor. Better performance than the 458. Easty to form and factory brass is available if that maters to ou.

And if you don't want to bugger up teh action consider using a scout mount and putting a 2.5x scope out front.

Dear Austin Hunter:

Have you considered the 416 Ruger in lieu of either the 416 Taylor and 458 Win. Mag.? More powder space than either one, and obviously a factory round to boot versus the 416 Taylor.

I did, and settled on the 416 Ruger.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have built several taylors and 458's on Mausers, and both were easy to get to feed. I love the Taylor, and think it may be the near perfect large bore. Recoil is really low, due to small powder charges. If you are having pressure problems, you are simply overloading. It's not a Rigby. It is light years ahead of a 450/400, even if you hold the loads down.

Don't know if I understand the action issue. If you have a mint rifle, then don't do anything. It is highly collectible, and will appreciate. I think there is a line where respect for the history should rule over practical use. If it is a mint action only, then it has no real collector value, since it can never be rebuilt with matching numbers etc anyway. The fact of the matter is that all the options listed "bugger the action". You will have to open the bolt face. I suppose you could get a replacement bolt and use, but I presume you will refinish the metal, so ther you go again. Just build the rifle however you want it, and don't worry about it.

I would build the 458. Easy to find ammo. The recent Hornady stuff will push a 500 gr bullet at +2100 FPS.
I like a 450 swift in a 458 WM at 2270 FPS. Your Taylor will push a 400 gr safely at 2300 so it is a toss up. The 416 (400 gr) has a better SD but the 458 (450 gr) will punch a bigger hole.
I have built quite a few custom big bores in 416 to 458 Lott and I like them all. I bought a Browning Safari in 458 WM a few years back that is the cats meow and dabbled with new load data that convinced me it is a great cartridge with modern powders and premium bullets. The 450 gr bullet does recoil a bit less than the 500.

quote:

I love the Taylor, and think it may be the near perfect large bore.

Truer words have never been spoken.

My choice is also the 416 Taylor. Much more versatile! You can shoot longer ranges - flatter trajectory and probably more retained energy than the 458 WM. with appropriate bullets, for less than the largest game.

458WM of course would be the best of the two for up close in the brush, but the 400 grain in the 416 Taylor should work just fine there also. I have both but only in the 458 WM have I mastered shooting cast for fun including deer hunting in the brush. Some claim the Taylor shoots cast well also - have yet to spend the time on any cast load development.

I might have gotten biased because I built the Taylor myself re-barreling a P14 doing the work myself - that was part of the fun...Bob.

I figured 480 grains in the 458 wm would be perfect.

10-4 on that!

quote:

My choice is also the 416 Taylor. Much more versatile! You can shoot longer ranges

If he is going to limit himself to open sights I doubt longer ranges will be much of an issue.

That siad If I wouldn't open it up to handle a Lott I'd stay with the 416 Taylor or more likely the 416 Ruger.

The Taylor is a good caliber for sure, but today I think I would opt for the 416 Ruger, and on a 1909 the 416 Rem is always a good choice..

As much as I liked the Taylor, unless I allready had one that would not be my first choice..

In a 45 caliber I would opt for the 458 Lott on the 1909 action. I would load it to 2150 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet as that is plenty for even elephant..I would then have very mild pressure, 80 to 85% Load density, no compaction at all, and it would be what the .458 Win should have been from the start IMO....

Taylor

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
How can anything be compared to the Taylor?

Hold on, let me count the ways!

465H&H

465H&H you should keep it in the family and recommend your smaller brother the 400H&H. 400gr bullet at 2400fps greater case capacity less pressures than the Taylor

416 Taylor.
1 up, 4 down
7.5 lbs.

Nothing else can touch it.

Browning Safari in 458 Win.

7lb 12 oz
1 up, 3 down
Real wood stock instead of Metel toy stock.

With 458 Win you have a real DG caliber and don't need 4 down!

465H&H

Like I said nothing can touch it!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Like I said nothing can touch it!

Yes but your biased!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Will,

What stock is this?
Is it pillar bedded or with an aluminum block fror rigidty.
What is your load that you use?

A friend of mine can only get 2200 fps with our local powder SA.

I noticed that as of January 2011 the 416 Taylor is a SAAMI standardized cartridge and it is being offered as a standard production item by A-Square.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
416 Taylor.
1 up, 4 down
7.5 lbs.

Nothing else can touch it.

If I were going to shoot something in the forehead or behind the shoulder, in the shoulder in the rear end or where ever. Of the two choices it would be the .458 Winchester Magnum. I see where everyone would be reloading thier ammo so you don't have to use 1956 factory ammunition in the .458 Win. Mag. Lets just move on and except the fact that early ammo for the .458 Win. Mag had some hiccups, I think that has been rectified in recent decades. Just my thoughts.

Kidd

416 Taylor. I like the shoulder for headspace compared to the 458WM. As long as it is a custom gun, no point in chambering a generic ctg. and brass is easy to make.

Eventually you will have one or more of each so don't sweat which one.

Never build anything you can buy store bought.

I would build a Taylor or buy a .416 Ruger.

Warrior is correct in that African powders will probably only get about 2200 FPS..but that's enough velocity, and faster than a 450-400, and that is high praise...

That said, today, I would opt for a 416 Ruger or the 416 Rem as they get more velocity anyway you cut it and work in the same size action as the Taylor..You can load the Ruger and Rem down to the Taylor, but you cannot load the Taylor up to the Rem and Ruger for what it's worth..

I liked and used the Taylor some before the Ruger came out. I also used the 375 Chatfield Taylor some, all good cartridges, but from a practical point of view, the Taylors are deader n door knob today, except for those few poor creature hanger on men of no vision lke my old buddy Will Just kidding guys!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
416 Taylor.
1 up, 4 down
7.5 lbs.

Nothing else can touch it.

xcept a FACTORY 416 ruger, that doesn't run at stupid pressure to get 2400 fps.

I built a Taylor if doing it over again I would go with the 414 Ruger.

The taylor is nice the 416 ruger is just the better choice now.

I just built a 416 Taylor for myself, I'd been wanting one for some twenty years and it finally came about. Recoil was very manageable, all in all I love it so far. That being said the 416 Ruger has it's merits, factory ammo availability, and more case capacity..., but the Taylor to me is nostalgic, and will get the job done.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/6731029951

CAUTION: I myself had a 1909 Argentine Mauser about 20 years ago that I planned to make into a custom. As I recall, my researches of that time made me conclude that the Argentine 09 actions are too soft for use with the big bore cartridges and perhaps not long enough either, for the ones I had in mind. I urge you to check it out.

I ended up giving it to a good hunting buddy who had helped me with my move to Japan. He rebarreled it to a 7mm and said it shoots great.

I have also been researching a 40plus caliber for a Mauser (old Herters 7mmRM). Leaning towards the 416 Taylor but would like to find some more info on the 425 Express before starting the project. Had considered the 416 Ruger but it would have taken custom bottom metal to feed in my action. Glad to have tried some dummy rounds before sending the action out for rebarreling.
BTW, isn't the 416 Taylor now SAAMI certified and being built by CZ in the the CZ550 (non safari magnum)?

Anjin,
I don't know what kind of research you did on the 1909 and I disagree for a number of reasons, to many to list here but a few are..There are two 1909s and one is better than the other, but it is best to have all Mausers softened, then surface ground, d&T, etc. then have them brought back up to specs as suggested by D'Arcy Echols, however Jack Belk says doing that with a 1909 is akin to painting a tin barn, so take you pick, both are the best of metalsmiths..

I have used many 1909s both redone and not redone for big bores and never had a problem with any of them..I actually like them better than a commercial FN, but not as much as a 1908...

I have a Mark X Mauser .458 in a Bell and Carlson glass bedded stock that is an absolute tack driver. I'm 65 now and my health isn't the greatest. I would sell it. I'm in Brownsville, if you're interested in it maybe we could get together some time so you could shoot it. I was just up at Buda last week but currently don't have any plans to return soon.

Ray, I certainly defer to your broader experience on the 1909 action. Of course, if you are talking about work by D'Arcy Echols or Belk, it might be a much bigger undertaking than would have been in my budget when I studied the situation. You are thinking major metalsmithing, aren't you, with top quality heat treating? I thought Austin Hunter did not want to change his 09 action from original, but maybe he would.

At this point, living in Japan, any new rifles I get are NOT going to be customs on that level, since I am not around to participate in the process and I am no longer a kid. I have a couple of customs, LH bolts based on 700s, a light 6.5-06 for sheep and a 375H&H that Searcy converted to add a 70 CRF extractor. (After it jammed after the first shot on a buff in Zambia.)

I likely won't go that route again now that one can find LH CRFs in the used market.

I had hoped that something would come of those low priced LH Zastavas discussed in the Lefties group, but it didn't. I thought one could polish those up and rebarrel with maybe not too much work. It it were me, I'd vote for one of the 416s, since I've never had one and still have two 458s, if one includes my H&H 500/450 Express double.

Norm,
Yes you are partially correct in that both are top metal smiths and get the big bucks as a rule.

But, to have a action softened then worked on and then rehardened is the best route..The heat treating process runs $50 to $75 in Salt Lake City, so that is an easy one, it's the other stuff that costs.

IMO, swampshooter offered the best idea to come out of this thread. Any talk of heat treating should be enough of a clue to run from such a project using a 1909. If not, it's your money.

KB

As someone who now has a digital heat treating furnace big enough to do actions,, I'm curious as to exactly what the process is for a 1909 Mauser action.I always thought most Mausers were just case hardened. Are you just re-case hardening? What exactly is the metal composition and whats the optimum temp, soak, quench and tempering procedure? Has anyone ever measured the hardness of such an action after tempering?Just how does anyone know thats good enough? Seen some nice 1909's with the action lugs set back by magnum cartridges in the past and would like to really avoid it in the future. Inquiring minds want to know.-Rob