quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Just how does anyone know thats good enough? Seen some nice 1909's with the action lugs set back by magnum cartridges in the past and would like to really avoid it in the future. -Rob

So as to not post a response after someone offers answers to your questions, which may seem too personal, I'll post now then

The best way to avoid problems with the 1909 is to avoid the action altogether. There has been a great deal of discussion, and I don't recall one really scientific answer. It all seems speculative, proprietary, and trial and error. Since you have the tools, but no experience specific to the task, you are in the same boat the rest of them were before they ruined a few actions in the learning process, and before they got to the point of "good enough, at least the action isn't warped". Do you actually think someone is going to give up their hard earned specific knowledge of how it's done properly - assuming that's even a possibility?

It's my opinion that if someone gave you specifics, step-by-scientific-step, supposedly to replicate success, it would be the wide open door to show that it is in fact a farce.

It's not just a simple matter of achieving a specific hardness of the steel. That's probably the easiest part. It's doing it without the action warping for one thing. Also there was a reason the original actions were surface hardened. They were war tools, and expendable, and designed to not explode in the soldier's face. Re-heat treatment with a consistant and suitable hardness throughout seems sorta like making a bomb, like what happened on some of the Springfields. But it's certanly going against one of the original Mauser design specs, deemed important at the time.

The only way I would use a 1909 action is if it showed plenty of evidence of use, and had no setback whatsoever, already. That's a good indication that maybe it won't set back, if used with a cartridge similar to the original. In such case, I would use it for some mild cartridge such as a 9.3x57 or 7.65x53 without altering the original heat treatment. Either way, if hardness testing shows it to be a soft action, I would avoid using it.

There are just too many good actions available to mess with something iffy.

KB

Heat treat is science, not art. As with most things, it's a compromise. The harder the action the less likely you will get set back and the stronger the action. Once you get above 35 R"C" machining starts to become an issue. I prefer machining in the 35 to 45 R"C" range because of the finish. If you prefer high speed steel tooling then you will need to soften the action. Carbide tooling will work well up to about 45 R"C". An action at 45 R"C" will probably not suffer from setback. I believe, but have not tested, a Mauser action is normally around 35 R"C".

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The best way to avoid problems with the 1909 is to avoid the action altogether.
-------------------------------------
There are just too many good actions available to mess with something iffy.

KB

KB
Don't take this as a personal shot, but if my memory serves, you were a Mauser fan a few years ago, then you decided they were crap and began touting Rugers, then you decided Rugers are crap and you now tout the CZ550 as the be all-end-all.

On the other hand D'arcy Echols has stated(IIRC) that the 1909 is his preferred Mauser action, but he does have them re heat-treated.

So, should I trust you or Mr. Echols???

Back to the original question: "416 Taylor or 458 Win Mag on a 1909 Argentine?"

Both have pros and cons, but one undeniable advantage for the 458 is that ammo is available anywhere in Africa where game that requires a big bore is hunted. In the Congo basin 458 cartridges are sold individually by traders deep in the bush, and in Zimbabwe 458 ammo is found in most hunting camps and ranger stations.

I'm not sure if ammo for the 416 Taylor is quite as common.

Trust me, of course. It will cost you nothing, and may save you a bunch of grief. That's my entire agenda with the 1909s.

I still like Mausers - VZ24s especially, in the mil surp catagory and FNs in commercial. In my experience, the 1909 is not in the same class of the VZ24, insofar as resistance to setback and proper hardness. My experience goes a long ways back with the 1909. The issue of whether it's a suitable action for a sporter was settled a long time ago for me. Waste my money once has a great impact on whether I keep listening or not. I have read nothing or seen nothing to change my mind over the years. It's still the same old BS now as that which years ago influenced me to waste money and time on the 1909s. IMO, they are simply fly traps to lure the unsuspecting Aficionado of the silk purse from a sows ear.

I still like Rugers, and have several which are very satisfactory. I had some with issues and got rid of them, and resolved the rest.

I don't know about the CZ 550s being all-end-all. I may change my mind again next week. But they have caused me no trouble whatsoever thus far.

There are several features to love about the CZ 550 - I'm talking about the medium action. Integral scope bases, excellent set trigger, Mauser type claw extractor, small front ring, great bottom metal, accurate factory barrels (usually), forged and properly hardened reciever, reasonable price, simple conversion to three-position safety - and the list goes on.

Back to the original question. There is nothing wrong with the 458WM. BTW, I have a CZ 550 Medium action from a 7mm Mag, with a magnum bolt face and magazine and follower, that will feed either the 458WM or the 416 Taylor perfectly. But, it's not for sale since I have plans for it.

KB

I had this 458Win built up and is set with Woodleigh 480grn Softs and FMJs for a velocity of over 2150fps with no pressure issues.
With a 5 round bolt action version of the great 450NE in a double.




Stippled front sight with pop up low light sight;

What a piece of trash.

Euro-Aus with a touch of US trash.

Nice rifle!!!

Well, I sold my 1909 action and one of two Enfield actions.

So right now, I think I'm planning on a 458 (win mag or lott) on the remaining Enfield.