Missed a buck with a 70-150-900 on a martini.

Don't be a tease.
Tell us something about the Martini.
Is that an Indian Police Model 12 guage that has been rebarreled with rifling for the old Winchester sales-gimmick brass,
or is it a smoothbore shooting a conical and that is why you missed the buck?

In my Winchester days I had a fascination with the larger rifles. A friend in the mid west has some 70-150 ammo and I saw a 70-150 in the 1887 shotgun in South Africa in the '90s. In my files I have a photo of one here in the States.An interesting chambering.
Cheers,
Cal

I used a large military martini, opened up the threads a bit and fitted a pacnor barrel. The chamber was cut with a boring bar, as was the mold, the die body along with the die inserts for bullet swedging, sizing the case and seating the bullet. The diamensions of the 70-150 case were followed and 12 guage brass case was used. I had intended to use a 1887 clone as a basis for this project, and found that it could not be done; another discussion. I may have missed the deer because it saw the bullet coming and got out of the way!

Just a side note on the " Lever Action Rifle 70-150 "

" The 70-150 cartridge first appeared on the 1888 Winchester Cartridge Boards and to our knowledge the only gun chambered for the 70-150 was a specially-built Model 1887 lever action shotgun. Unfortunately, the Winchester 1887, 70-150 "Rifle" was never put into production, however, Rocky Mtn. Cartridge Co. custom built some solid brass 3" mag cartridges that hold, 900, 925 or 950 gr. slugs that can be fired through our 6" rifled choke tube with surprising accuracy.

After laying dorment for 112 years, Coyote Cap / Lasergraphic has successfully converted a (Prototype) M-1901wcse-18, "Coyote Cap Commemorative" 12ga. shotgun to fire specially loaded 900 - 950 grain slugs through a normal shotgun barrel, into a rifled choke tube. The Coyote Cap 1901 "Prototype" can withstand a proof tested chamber and frame pressure well beyond 44,500 psi.. That rifle/shotgun now exists and in test firing a much lighter load, the 950 gr. fired slug imbedded itself 2-1/2 inches into a frozen Oak Tree. Removing the slug proved to be quite difficult, but the bullet had mushroomed perfectly and would have taken down a Bull Elephant with only one shot.

The M-1901wcse-20 pt "Prototype" was designated to go into production as an M-1887, but built on the longer framed 1901 (10ga.) design. Each gun would then be barreled and chambered for 12ga. These are brand new, hand built at great expense, "Prototype" lever action shotguns. "

Coyote Cap M-1901, 12ga. Prototype - (27 were built) - $2,995.00 (7 left)

http://www.coyotecap.com

The 1887 lever action cannot use a case with a shoulder as on the 70-150. If Coyote Cap has a working system he must be using a case with out a shoulder, but not a 70-150. I think the idea of winchester having used this action for a 70-150 prototype is not possible. It just looks so much like it should work! Now, if any gunsmith cares to prove me wrong, I would be happy to sell him/her my Norinco 1887 to work with. He/she will have to buy their own barrel from Pacnor. It is not going to happen!

Read this stuff in between naps yesterday after an early multi-family Thanksgiving gathering.

If I recollect correctly, the prototype 1901 lever action shotgun used was designed to handle 10 gauge shot shells rather than the normal 12 gauge shot shells of the 1887 lever action.

As I've never seen a 70-150 cartridge, is it based upon a brass 12 gauge case or is it based upon a 10 gauge case? Or perhaps something in between?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
…...

As I've never seen a 70-150 cartridge, is it based upon a brass 12 gauge case or is it based upon a 10 gauge case? Or perhaps something in between?

CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD: 10th Edition; pg 163
General Comments: " The 70-150 Winchester is based on the Brass 12 Gauge shotshell shortened and necked slightly… "

Googled:




http://www.icollector.com/Rare...-Cartridge_i11003788

What would like to know can this round be duplicate?If so
what would be the best donor for this cartridge?also where
would one get the dies and brass?the reason would be that a 10ga.
double may be a good donor.

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
…...

As I've never seen a 70-150 cartridge, is it based upon a brass 12 gauge case or is it based upon a 10 gauge case? Or perhaps something in between?

CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD: 10th Edition; pg 163
General Comments: " The 70-150 Winchester is based on the Brass 12 Gauge shotshell shortened and necked slightly… "

Googled:




http://www.icollector.com/Rare...-Cartridge_i11003788

Thanks PAPI!

The original 12gfh =)

I consider my 70-150 on the large martini to have limitations and do not suggest that anyone else go this route. With this massive case, excessive pressure could easily be obtained with this old action. The idea to put it on a good 10 guage double shotgun action appeals. However, the 12 guage brass is of rather light construction, and that might be a concern.

Another thing about the winchester 1887 action that is not mentioned; it has to have 25 thousands headspace in order for the action to work!

quote:

Originally posted by gwahir:
I consider my 70-150 on the large martini to have limitations and do not suggest that anyone else go this route. With this massive case, excessive pressure could easily be obtained with this old action. The idea to put it on a good 10 guage double shotgun action appeals. However, the 12 guage brass is of rather light construction, and that might be a concern.

Another thing about the winchester 1887 action that is not mentioned; it has to have 25 thousands headspace in order for the action to work!

Is that 25-thou of slop?
Surely not a 25-thou thickness of rim?

Being a necked down 12-ga makes it more of a 13GaFH.
RMC brass is available for the 70-150, IIRC.
That would be a heck of a lot better than the paper-thin
Cowboy brass 12-ga necked down.

Colin Stolzer can build you one. He is finishing up my 10 Bore double rifle on a Spanish SxS 10 gauge. Same principle as this '87. Rifled choke tubes, that can be turned in or out to move bullet impact. We are at 160gr of FFg with a roundball. 2 1/2" groups at 50yds. A bullet hole of horizontal and 2" of vertical. He is making Arbor Press-style dies and cases from the old Rocky Mtn Cartridge by the new owners.

You could use my Rim modification of the .50BMG case ( for the 12GaFH), cut it down and fireform to .700. dZ
I agree on the old Martini Henry actions being Kinda IFFY.

The 1887 is likely the only action in the world that requires the breech block to move foreward before it can unlock and drop. It uses something like 75 thou firingpin protrusion in order to reach the primer and fires with about 25 thou headspace. The shot shell blows back out of the chamber to rest on the breech face and when the breech block moves foreward the shot shell is pushed back into the chamber inorder to provide room for the breech block to drop. Of course a case with a shoulder would not move foreward. I know it sounds wierd, but I am telling you the truth!

I've put real power in the 87s and it can
do a 70-150. The original design called for
a tight headspace to keep the action locked shut.

The modern replica actions have been tested to 40k
in 12ga. I've got my 585HE in one, just for fun.
Can shoot a 440gr 585 Minie bullet over 2600 in it.
Shame they didn't make sides filled out in thickness
to matc the front reciever. ED

Ed, I have an early 1887 here and had not looked at it closely until today. My comments relate only to the 'clone'. The headspace on the early 87 is as you say. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

There is no point in the clone having that farked up design. Someone in China screwed up.

quote:

Originally posted by gwahir:
Ed, I have an early 1887 here and had not looked at it closely until today. My comments relate only to the 'clone'. The headspace on the early 87 is as you say. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

The difference between the two actions is a change in the angle at which the breech block locks to the action. The clone, and I expect the 1901, uses a negative angle, and the breech block cannot drop out of place when fireing; not a bad idea. This might have been a problem with the origional 1887. The only thing I see on the 1887 that would hold the lever closed, other than the right hand of the shooter, is the bottom tip of the trigger falling into a slot in the lever when the trigger is pulled. The clone, and I expect the 1901, using the negative locking angle, are more safe from that aspect. Because of the negative angle they require foreward breech block movement inorder for the breech block to unlock, and all that headspace provides room for this to happen. Works fine on a shotgun!

Hmmmmm
577-12 gauge 2 1/4" in an 1887 @ 40k PSI.
That should be good for about anything.
A lever action 577 NE power big boomer.

will one of the Chinese import CAI PW87's work???.... ive got several of them.... they have great reviews with the cowboy shooters.... after about 25 rds shooting they slick right up....

jimatcat

You have a PM.