quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is another question.If the crosshairs in your scope do not shake at 25yds do you believe that they are not shaking at 500yds and trajectory alone will determine POI? Why do they shake at 500 and not at 25yds-becuse there is such a thing called margin of error.In the same way,open sights need to be adjusted at 100 to shoot bullseye at 50 and 100 all the time.Wake up everyone.

The cross hairs shake as much as I allow them or make them shake. Hence why you wait until you have calmed down and carry out the correct breathing.

The open sights do not need to be re sighted all the time and bullseye at 50 will give you bullseye at 100 or near as damn it if you do your bit.

Jesus you take the cake, you really do.

Are you sure you are not suffering from cabin fever ?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It is cold,boring,too liberal and not that economically strong,but it is home.Maybe one day I`ll live in the US- who knows? It sucks here there is no doubt about that.

Shoots, I hear Idaho is REALLY NICE! Yes, its a fact, great place to be. Idaho!! I think you really should look into going to Idaho. In fact, I know someone there that will help you get a good
start there, maybe he is even watching this thread???? Idaho--For sure the place for you to be!

Michael

that's not funny...you take him!

"What if a bad 50yds sight alignment is set and it strikes 11 inches low at 100yds "


What are you shooting at 100 for if you haven't yet sighted in the gun at 50 properly ?

"bad 50 yards sight alignment" Jesus, get 50 yards right first, of course if it's off at 50 it will be off at 100.

If you can't do it right at 50, do it at 25 yards first, then 50, then 100.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"What if a bad 50yds sight alignment is set and it strikes 11 inches low at 100yds "


What are you shooting at 100 for if you haven't yet sighted in the gun at 50 properly ?

"bad 50 yards sight alignment" Jesus, get 50 yards right first, of course if it's off at 50 it will be off at 100.

If you can't do it right at 50, do it at 25 yards first, then 50, then 100.

A bad 50 looks perfect and you can not tell the difference.If you believe it will strike were it should at 100 your in for a surprise!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
"What if a bad 50yds sight alignment is set and it strikes 11 inches low at 100yds "


What are you shooting at 100 for if you haven't yet sighted in the gun at 50 properly ?

"bad 50 yards sight alignment" Jesus, get 50 yards right first, of course if it's off at 50 it will be off at 100.

If you can't do it right at 50, do it at 25 yards first, then 50, then 100.

A bad 50 looks perfect and you can not tell the difference.If you believe it will strike were it should at 100 your in for a surprise!

So are you if you ever learn to shoot properly

I know better than to continue with this but I just can't help myself.

OK George,

I think what you are really trying to say is that sighting in at 100 yards will make your 50 yard POI more precise than the other way around; ie sighting in at 50 yards will not give you as precise of a POI at 100 yards. However, your example of being 12" off at 100 when dead on at 50 is too extreme to be credible. An inch or so, I could see that, but not a foot.

Let's look at it from the reverse angle George. Do you think there is any way you can adjust your rifle sights to hit 12" high at 100 yards with a dead on hold that will also give you a perfect bullseye at 50 yards with the same dead on hold? That is effectively what you are claiming. Actually, that is EXACTLY what you are claiming. If you believe this, please explain under what specific conditions this will occur and what logic or critical thinking process you used to arrive at that conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I know better than to continue with this but I just can't help myself.

OK George,

I think what you are really trying to say is that sighting in at 100 yards will make your 50 yard POI more precise than the other way around; ie sighting in at 50 yards will not give you as precise of a POI at 100 yards. However, your example of being 12" off at 100 when dead on at 50 is too extreme to be credible. An inch or so, I could see that, but not a foot.

Let's look at it from the reverse angle George. Do you think there is any way you can adjust your rifle sights to hit 12" high at 100 yards with a dead on hold that will also give you a perfect bullseye at 50 yards with the same dead on hold? That is effectively what you are claiming. Actually, that is EXACTLY what you are claiming. If you believe this, please explain under what specific conditions this will occur and what logic or critical thinking process you used to arrive at that conclusion.

That is exactly what I am saying.One inch off at 50yds very often gives a foot high or low at 100yds-no exaggeration.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I know better than to continue with this but I just can't help myself.

OK George,

I think what you are really trying to say is that sighting in at 100 yards will make your 50 yard POI more precise than the other way around; ie sighting in at 50 yards will not give you as precise of a POI at 100 yards. However, your example of being 12" off at 100 when dead on at 50 is too extreme to be credible. An inch or so, I could see that, but not a foot.

Let's look at it from the reverse angle George. Do you think there is any way you can adjust your rifle sights to hit 12" high at 100 yards with a dead on hold that will also give you a perfect bullseye at 50 yards with the same dead on hold? That is effectively what you are claiming. Actually, that is EXACTLY what you are claiming. If you believe this, please explain under what specific conditions this will occur and what logic or critical thinking process you used to arrive at that conclusion.

That is exactly what I am saying.One inch off at 50yds very often gives a foot high or low at 100yds-no exaggeration.

No George, that was not the question. The question was, can you sight in the rifle to be 12" high at 100 yards and expect it to be dead on at 50 yards? Or more precisely to your point, can you sight in a rifle to be 12" high at 100 yards, then shoot it at 50 yards and expect it to only be off bullseye by 1"? I'm trying to get you to think of your scenario in reverse so that you can see the absurdity in it.

There simply is not 12" of trajectory variance between 50 yards and 100 yards unless you are shooting a Red Rider BB gun. So with an identical hold with the sights, there is no way to set them to achieve this 12" POI variance over that range since the variance in trajectory does not exist.

Sort of entertaining thread, but Shootaway often launch some interesting new angels to problems that do not exist

What really makes me ponder is this :
As an army small arms instructor for many years, we used to target our 7,62x51 (308 Win) infantry rifles dead on at 30 meters, which made them spot on at 200 meters with a couple of inches high at 100 meters.

With your way of thinking, that could not be done but it was.

Guess you are just bored and like to pull our legs as usual

Edit: came to think about that this is the big bore forum, so there might be a slightly different trajectory involved with the puny 147 grs bullet the 7,62 nato spits out compared to a big bore slug.
Yes... that´s the obvious answer......slightly different trajectory.

Originally posted by shootaway:
"That is exactly what I am saying.One inch off at 50yds very often gives a foot high or low at 100yds-no exaggeration."

Crap.

I've said it before and someone else said it just above, an inch maybe, 12 inches No way.

I have shot enough guns in at 25, 50 and 100 to know that a bull at 50 will be a bull at 100
or as close as I can get it with open sights
and that's me causing the variation, not the sights !!!


Shootaway
If I thought there was even a chance you
were onto something, I would grab a gun
or two and go and try it.
But you aren't so I won't !!! LOL

If you stopped pulling it, you might not
be so blind !

quote:

Michael,

I see you must have failed geography class in high school. Montreal is close to Idaho? Hell your closer to Montreal than I am.

465H&H

No NO H-- You and Shoots can solve lots of issues, this is after he MOVES TO NAMPA IDAHO--Then you will be neighbors of course.

quote:

bad 50 looks perfect and you can not tell the difference.If you believe it will strike were it should at 100 your in for a surprise!

Yes having bad sight alignment at 50 well cause more of an error 100. But thats a shooters error not a bullets error.

Its all relative to the point of impact if you only an inch off at 50 you will not be 12 inchs of at 100.

My best guess is as said before your not looking at the sights the same at 50 as you do at 100. Yes if you at doing that you coulds be off 12 inchs or more.

To much bead to little bead to much left to much to the right.

But that is human error you are causing that not the bullet.

Thats one reason I don't use open sights much anymore my eyes are not good enough to focus on them properly.

I know it is my problem not the guns problem.

Shootaway,

Just FYI South Carolina has wonderful weather in the winter. It's never boring and there is a large population of big bore iron sighted shooters you could share your time and knowledge with.

South Carolina also gives tax breaks to Canadians and is very conservative. South Carolina wold be my first choice if I were moving from Canada.

Anywhere were it is not humid and cold and not liberal.When I was on my way back from Reno I switched planes in San Jose.I could not believe I was in California-it looked pretty nice.If I ever meet a nice American woman and get married-I am out of here!

. . . thank God it is humid in Houston.

quote:

thank God it is humid in Houston.

Mike thought you might have a daughter for him

George,

Forget about the weather. Can you answer the question? With a maximum trajectory variance of .25" between 50 and 100 yards, is it possible to sight your gun for 12" high at 100 yards, then move to 50 yards and with the same setting on your sights and using a dead on hold, have the POI strike 1" high? If so, please provide the logical explanation for this phenomenon!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
If so, please provide the logical explanation for this phenomenon!

Coriolis effect exacerbated by recoil trauma.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George,

Forget about the weather. Can you answer the question? With a maximum trajectory variance of .25" between 50 and 100 yards, is it possible to sight your gun for 12" high at 100 yards, then move to 50 yards and with the same setting on your sights and using a dead on hold, have the POI strike 1" high? If so, please provide the logical explanation for this phenomenon!

Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George,

Forget about the weather. Can you answer the question? With a maximum trajectory variance of .25" between 50 and 100 yards, is it possible to sight your gun for 12" high at 100 yards, then move to 50 yards and with the same setting on your sights and using a dead on hold, have the POI strike 1" high? If so, please provide the logical explanation for this phenomenon!

I have figured out a way for this to happen! If the 50 yard target is not level with the 100 yard target.

Having said that, I think Shootaway is mistaken or pulling our legs.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

Two weeks ago I sighted a rifle in at 100 yards with iron sights. Two days later I adjusted the rear sight 14 minutes up and was dead on at 600 yards, just like it should be in theory and in practice.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George,

Forget about the weather. Can you answer the question? With a maximum trajectory variance of .25" between 50 and 100 yards, is it possible to sight your gun for 12" high at 100 yards, then move to 50 yards and with the same setting on your sights and using a dead on hold, have the POI strike 1" high? If so, please provide the logical explanation for this phenomenon!

Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

So if margin of error within iron sights is the answer, under what logical premises could one expect to sight in at 100 yards and still expect dead on POI at 50 yards. You see George, you are caught in an either / or scenario here. Either you CAN sight in at 100 yards and expect bullseye POI at 50 yards, or (according to you) you CAN sight in 12" high at 100 yards and expect bullseye POI at 50 yards. It cannot be both ways. It's one or the other. All I'm doing is putting the question to you in reverse order from the way you have phrased it.

Another way: If margin or error with iron sights (as is your claim) prevents sighting in at 50 and staying within the limits of trajectory variance at 100, then sighting in at 100 would also prevent staying within the limits of trajectory variance at 50. You are saying that one scenario applies and the other doesn't when if fact, they are identical. It's logically impossible for one to apply and not the other. Either / Or. Choose and support your claim!

Exactly what I thought. You can't answer the question because it is impossible. But your attempt at spin is quite comical. Answering a question in a round about way so that your answer is no answer at all. George, you should go into politics. It's the only place your comments and opinions would find acceptance.

Unfortunately, I predict here and now, that your perfectly functioning, soon to be delivered Searcy Double Rifle will quickly be declared by you to be deficient in it's performance due to your wacky ideas of how rifles work and behave. I tried to give you a heads up about this a few days ago, in that you need to set aside these crazy ideas about what you think you know about rifles before you delve into doubles. I predict frustration for you in this regard and that is a shame because doubles are a great source of enjoyment for many. Please do me a favor however, remember it was I that first predicted you'll be selling that Searcy very quickly after receiving it and taking it to the range. Please give me first rights to purchase it before it goes on the open market. And remember, it is defective so price it accordingly as I'll have to have it "corrected".

Cheers mate!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

Two weeks ago I sighted a rifle in at 100 yards with iron sights. Two days later I adjusted the rear sight 14 minutes up and was dead on at 600 yards, just like it should be in theory and in practice.

100 is a 100 and 50 is 50yds besides you could have been lucky.

Todd,seriously how could you adjust at 100 and be off at 50 when 100yds is further? As far as rifles go,any rifle will shoot in my hands and I chose only the best!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

Two weeks ago I sighted a rifle in at 100 yards with iron sights. Two days later I adjusted the rear sight 14 minutes up and was dead on at 600 yards, just like it should be in theory and in practice.

100 is a 100 and 50 is 50yds besides you could have been lucky.

Have done it way to many times to be lucky with different rifles (M1A, AR15 Service Rifle, AR15 Match Rifle, Palma Rifles, 6MMBR tube gun, etc) and have also sighted in at 100 yards and would be within one to two minutes at 1000 yards all with iron sights.

This should really confuse you. These targets were used to sights in M1s for 1000 yard competition with M72 ammo. The sight in distance was...........50 YARDS.

I still think George is trying to stir up controversy with his ridiculous remarks but if sight error caused the problem then we know from exterior ballistics that any sight error will double at 100 yards so if you are an inch off at 50 you will be two inches off at 100. If George truely had the posted problem then it is highly likely that he has a 12" flinch at 100 yards. But it is also hoghly unlikely that he would admit that.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Todd,seriously how could you adjust at 100 and be off at 50 when 100yds is further?

My point exactly George! Assume your sights have 1/4 minute adjustments. If you are 12" off at 100 yards, you would have to be 6" off at 50 yards, plus the difference in trajectory. Correcting your open sights at 100 yards to bring the POI back to bullseye would require 48 clicks adjustment. There is NO WAY a 48 click adjustment would not also affect the POI at 50 yards as well. However, you are stating that is it possible to be dead on at 50 and 12" off at 100, then adjust the sights to be dead on at 100 and also REMAIN dead on at 50. George, that is impossible!! If you make that large of an adjustment at 100 yards, you WILL also affect the 50 yard POI.


My curiosity in this topic is now satisfied so I'm moving on George, but remember, I get first dibs on that Searcy! OK?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Yes,open sights are real life and have a margin of error.I have explained it all along.Do you sight your scope at 25yds and then trust trajectory tables to tell you were it will strike at 200 and 300yds? Ofcourse not-you shoot the rifle at 200 and 300yds to see what in the world is happening.

Two weeks ago I sighted a rifle in at 100 yards with iron sights. Two days later I adjusted the rear sight 14 minutes up and was dead on at 600 yards, just like it should be in theory and in practice.

100 is a 100 and 50 is 50yds besides you could have been lucky.

Have done it way to many times to be lucky with different rifles (M1A, AR15 Service Rifle, AR15 Match Rifle, Palma Rifles, 6MMBR tube gun, etc) and have also sighted in at 100 yards and would be within one to two minutes at 1000 yards all with iron sights.

This should really confuse you. These targets were used to sights in M1s for 1000 yard competition with M72 ammo. The sight in distance was...........50 YARDS.

Mike,there are hundreds of long range or highpower shooters that find themselves on the 1000 range and owning the whole assorted of rifles who are fairly new to shooting.
Shooting at 1000yds and owning those rifle means nothing.
The number of people who know how to shoot are very few and anything can be printed on a target it does not mean it is how it is done.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
... As far as rifles go,any rifle will shoot in my hands ...

No one is questioning that the rifles will shoot...it's those hands that appear to be the problem...

This thread reminds me of a decades-old political cartoon at which most of Canada was laughing, back in the day. The one-panel cartoon showed all the premiers of the various Canadian provinces sitting around a table, preparing for a conference. The Prime Minister was holding a chair for the Quebec premier, inviting him to sit and join the group...and the Quebecer balks, sputtering "But..but..but that's a chair just like everyone else's chair! I CAN'T SIT THERE!!!"

Damn, Todd...you are a patient man!

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

Damn, Todd...you are a patient man!

More like a glutton for punishment!! Besides, I want that Searcy!

SURESTRIKE!!!!!!!!!


I am not going to forget those comments you made---Dear God, I can't even repeat them or quote, them, someone might take notice! I took notice............ Beware....... LOL.....


Georgi, before I go any further, let me make this clear to you "You Are Full Of SH*T"........

quote:

I still think George is trying to stir up controversy with his ridiculous remarks but if sight error caused the problem then we know from exterior ballistics that any sight error will double at 100 yards so if you are an inch off at 50 you will be two inches off at 100. If George truely had the posted problem then it is highly likely that he has a 12" flinch at 100 yards. But it is also hoghly unlikely that he would admit that.

465H&H

One of the very few times we are in agreement. Normal flinch is left or right, and slightly low. What Georgi is experiencing is a combination of "Flinch" and "P.I.P"-- or Pre Ignition Push. Its commonly seen with amateur shooters of handgun and big bore rifles. Very common on the second round fired with a first time big bore shooter. Even seasoned small bore shooters do this on the second shot of their first big bore. Anticipating recoil and pushing down or into the rifle as they snatch on that trigger. We used to see it common in handgun matches many years ago when I was shooting so much handgun back in the day-- Pushing the handgun forward, anticipating recoil. I would say that Georgi has a bad case of this, and it is consistent through all his shooting. I dare say that windage is effected as well.

Again, Georgi, You are full of SH*T, just so there is no misunderstanding. And, you would not like South Carolina at all, in the summer, 95-110 degrees, humidity matches those same numbers, Canadians do not come here, it is way to humid for them, and its very common that the street cleaners pick up dead Canadians all the time here from passing out and and passing on from the heat and humidity. In fact, I think there are signs at the state borders stating this now...........


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

Damn, Todd...you are a patient man!

More like a glutton for punishment!! Besides, I want that Searcy!

I am surprised you did not buy a Searcy from the begining or did you?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

Damn, Todd...you are a patient man!

More like a glutton for punishment!! Besides, I want that Searcy!

I am surprised you did not buy a Searcy from the begining or did you?

George, Just ask Butch to include a gold oval in the stock with "WTW" engraved. I can wait until you are finished with it.

Guess which one is in Quebec ?

"English as a second language" ?

One more time gents . . .

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

-- George Bernard Shaw

LionHunter, you are a joke.

Yeah, I'm a joke and the idiot from the north is a genius. Show of hands? I no longer engage the idiot from the north, as it is like unto into the wind.

quote:

Show of hands? I no longer engage the idiot from the north, as it is like unto into the wind.

One has to have something to do on cold nasty winter days