I like versatility! Nothing can give you versatility like a big bore rifle! From rabbits to elephants one can have his cake and eat it too with a big bore! Can't do that with small bores!

A few weeks ago I decided it would be a good idea to have some snake shot or shotshells for my 50s! I am not a shotgun guy, what few I have sport short barrels and rifle sights, so I know crap about a shotgun, and don't care much to learn anything about one! All I had was some #6s laying around. I found some 32 gauge cardboard wads at Midway and they just happen to be a bit over .530 caliber. By slicing them into 4-5 layers these were easy to place inside my 50 B&M Super Short and 50 B&M. So I put 15 grs of Unique, cardboard wad on top of that, filled it to the top with #6s, then a cardboard wad on top to hold things in. The 50 Super Short held around 350 grs of shot, the 50 B&M held around 450 grs of shot. These were very effective at 5 yds and good to 10 yds. At 15 yds they start slinging everywhere and are not effective. At close range, 5yds and less a snake does not have a chance! By the way I hate snakes, all snakes!

Things were going very well, so I ordered some more shot, #4-#10 and so forth and continued to test these getting great results. Until I looked down the barrel of these rifles and lead buildup was beginning to be an issue, but I still did not think it would effect much. I decided to test some proven loads and clean the barrels out. What I found was a velocity loss of 100-150 fps on the first round--50 fps +- on the second round, and by the 3rd round things were back up to normal. I also saw a POI shift of about 1.5-2 inches at 50 yds for the first round, and by the 3rd round the barrel was again cleaned out. At the first round the guns smoked like a muzzle loader too!

So the problem is leading in the barrel with my shotshells! I brainstormed for a day or so, and ordered a few different muzzle loading sabots in .500 caliber. I thought this would solve the issue, and it did, no more lead! However I also could not hit a tin can at 3 yds with even 1 pellet! I think the sabot was slinging the hell out of the shot and sending it everywhere but in front of the muzzle! So that did not work. I thought about steel shot, but something about running steel shot down my rifle barrels don't sit well?

So all my big bore pals out there, got any ideas on what I can do to help with this issue????


Thanks
Michael

Maybe one of the odd Euro shotgun wad sizes. Haven't looked up the possibilities but I would guess anything tough enough to make it down the bore is going to impart a bunch of spin on the shot in the process. To be sure, I'll try to round up some 28 ga shotshell wads and try some in the 550 magnum.

The only other thought would be a screw-on or screw-in straightener like the one that comes with the Contender 45 LC/410 barrel. It is a 2" section (actually a choke tube on the TC) that has straight internal fins to stop the shot spin right before exiting the bore. You could duplicate that principal only installed like a muzzle brake externally.

Just don't forget to take the bugger off for bullets!

Use the shootaway method to clean that rifle until it becomes a smoothbore.
Then it will pattern better and foul less.

tigger

I am not concerned what happens after the shot leaves the barrel, it is fine, effective to 10 yds, would blow snakes to pieces at 5 yds. The leading is the problem. I would not care about the leading if it did not effect real bullets on the first 2 shots. Cleaning is fine, just shoot bullets down the bore, by the 3rd round clean as it can be! So I figure I am out hunting buffalo in Australia--here comes one of those very very nasty snakes-shoot hell out of the snake, then shoot a buffalo after that! But I have to solve the leading first so it does not effect the shot at the buffalo?????

RIP

Well according to shoot that way my barrels are already smoothbores after being shot a 100 times!

I tested the 50 B&M and the Super Short to 3 rds max of shotshells before I started having an issue. The 500 MDM which holds 650 grs of shot leads pretty nasty after 1 rd! I could reduce the amount of shot in it I think. Maybe there is some sort of other kind of shot, or a coated shot of some sort???

Michael

check out the shot cups for the various small calibers. Check out the gauge chart and go from there.

Rich
Buff Killer

The only other thought would be Hevi-shot or some other tungsten or tungsten matrix shot. You would need a cup of some sort for sure, to protect the bore. But then you could use lead again. Does Speer make shot capsules for the 50 AE or 500 S&W? You could stack a couple. They make (or made) copper plated shot. I don't know if it would hold up to the stress of rifling.

Random ideas: maybe there is a pistol or rifle brass case that can be cut down to hold the shot instead of plastic. The sides would have to cut to alow it to peel away from the shot. Or maybe encapsulation in aluminum foil would hold until they leave the barrel. It should rupture from the rotational forces after it exits as long as it's not too many wraps.

You could also try road salt packed in cling wrap capsules. It should penetrate at 15 feet. Or stacked 1/2 inch zinc washers or other softer metal disc (high pressure cylider blow-out discs are copper). Like Billy the Kid's 20 ga load of dimes, lol.

Copper plated shot:

Here

tigger

I have looked for the speer shotshells in .500 but have not seen any.

The cut down brass might work but would be very time consuming I think? Good idea. Maybe foil would work too, had not thought of that?

Now the copper coated shot might just be the ticket!!!!!! That might work, I got the link and I am going to get some in and try it.

THANKS

Michael

If you are serious, you need a shot cup that is smaller than the bore.
Maybe a .410.
It might scoot down the bore with no spin, if it does not obturate to grab the bore.
The spin is what is causing the donut pattern: Zero pellets on target, with the shot centrifugally spread in a ring around the target.

That might still grab the rifling enough to spin, and donut. Depends on how much those plastic leaves of the 410 wad fold back and grab while going down the barrel.

Big Bore rifles make for very poor small bore shotguns!

I tried shotloads in my Lott. One ounce of #9 with top and bottom cards The shot spread was horribly, cause by the barrels rifling.

If you are close enough, the muzzel blast should do the trick. That or knoew your point of impact at 6 ft.

Keith

Ah Grasshoppers you forget about "Quadracones" They are designed to spread out due to off-center holes drilled in them to cause dispersion. They work quite well in the 12GaFh. 4 250 gr brass Quadracones at 2500fps would be just the ticket for a Civic fulla Gangstas! From my experiments, Penetration is more than adequate.-Rob

RIP
Why hell yes I am serious! What did you think I was doing eating and pulling my pud? Kidding with you RIP!

I sorta got discouraged when the 50 caliber sabots did not work, but they spun in the rifling too tight and slung shot every where!

The 410 shot cup might work and not get caught up in the rifling! I did think about that, but have not got any yet. But I think you might be right.

I have 2 bags of copper coated shot on the way too. That might solve the issue. This place tigger sent me to has lot's of other things too I may have to ask you guys about. Like I said what I know about shot guns could be put on the head of a pin!

Rob
I like those quaddrcones!!!! Goes back a bit about what tigger said about the dimes, only this is pretty good

Hog
Right you are! But plenty good for snakes and such if I can rid myself of the leading issue.
Pretty effective even out to 10 yds-I was surprised. Past 10 yds however it spreads too much. 5yds is perfect snake medicine and as close as I want to get! Thing is, snakes worry me a bit! OK OK, Scared Sh&%less is more like it!

You see, I knew it! Big Bores are extremely versatile and I knew you guys would have some great ideas!
Keep it up please,

Thanks again
Michael

quote:

If you are close enough, the muzzel blast should do the trick. That or knoew your point of impact at 6 ft.

Keith, I don't want to be that close!!!!!!

Michael

Tigger

Have 2 bags of copper coated on the way! Was looking at the tungsten, the iron, and steel. That does not look too good for barrels. Looking at the ITX shot that might also be a possibility??
What do you guys think??

Michael

Sounds pretty good, Michael. Kinda costly but what price peace of mind, eh?

quote:

Like Billy the Kid's 20 ga load of dimes

Harry, that was a 12 ga.

Keith

I have a .410 version of the Quadracones specifically for my "3" Taurus Judge revolver that sits on my nightstand! The cases are made specifically for this round and its quite Nasty to say the least! Four nice rattlesnakes have been decapitated or how shall we say, rendered harmless by one shot.-Rob

Rob - you should make a Quadracone load for Hogkiller's REALLY Big Bore ...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I have a .410 version of the Quadracones specifically for my "3" Taurus Judge revolver that sits on my nightstand! The cases are made specifically for this round and its quite Nasty to say the least! Four nice rattlesnakes have been decapitated or how shall we say, rendered harmless by one shot.-Rob

Maybe one nipple, one navel, and two testicles wiped off the perp with one shot?
I will have to have one of those.

I though my 3" S&W 629 44Mag was user friendly enough, but The Judge will make a nice companion too, 3" cylinder, 3" barrel, Titanium. The heavy stainless 629 will be relegated to backup.

What kind of pattern does The Judge produce with .410 birdshot at 10 yards? ... With 3 inches of rifled barrel, better with buck and Quadracones, no doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Rob - you should make a Quadracone load for Hogkiller's REALLY Big Bore ...

Actually the patterns with .410 3" magnum no.6 shot are not bad from the "Judge". Mine patterns OK and the short rifling has little effect. You can buy winchester .410 3" magnum OOB (5/shell) which is pretty nasty too. Inside 5 yrds its unsurvivable. I have the new Crimson Trace laser grips on mine and I load it with 3 quadracones and 2 OOB winchester 3" .410 mag shells. With a good flashlight it is close to the perfect Nightstand gun IMHO. Its really easy to chuck alot of brass and lead with this thing and its simple stupid to shoot well! Its replaced my beloved Glock 21.-Rob

Have you checked the penetration from the judge using the quadcone loads?

I'd look for the hardest shot you can find -- I think there used to be such a thing as Ni plated shot -- also, I'd look for the smallest.

(The following is pure country boy supposition and logic.)

A 22 mag loaded w. the commercial shot shell loads works great at killing snakes, but the 38 special loads do not. We decided the difference is because the 22 mags are loaded w. "mustard seed" shot, whereas the 38s seem to be loaded w. #9s...

There used to be something called "bat shot" which might be a good choice...

Penetration with the Quadracones is well how should I say it. More than Adequate!-OB

Tigger

Well got the copper coated shot in this morning. Loaded 10 of them, #7 1/2 shot. They do NOT lead as bad, but still lead some, guess about 50% less than lead shot. So that is good progress. I shot 10 of them in one of the 50 B&Ms and then went to the chrono with a normal bullet. 1st Shot smoked a little, lost 80 fps from normal. Then from shot #2-#5 was normal. So it took only 1 shot to clean the barrel and the rest fell in line after 10 shotshells.

This week I will test again shooting 3 rds of shotshells and see if it makes any difference.

I just went back to the Ballistic Products site and ordered a bag of that ITX shot, along with some 410 shot cups (thanks to RIP) and some mylar wraps. This should give me enough supplies to figure something out. The copper shot does seem to be more effective than the lead too.

I think between all these things on order I will come up with some solution that solves my little issues. Now regardless thereof I am carrying something in my rifles to knock the snot out of any snake I come across, lead or no lead either way! But it would be nice to "get the lead out" so to speak and not worry about the next shot being somewhat off base!

I want my cake and I want to eat it too!!!!

Thanks
Michael

How about some brass beads?

I know this is not the perfect solution but may get You in another direction:
http://www.taimen.com/mt/produ..._id=1266&language=ro

Just a thought!

Michael- I dont think you have much to worry about shooting snakes. they are pretty fragile creatures and it doesnt take much to kill one. I have a ranch in real nasty rattlesnake country in No.Ca. I've shot probably 50 BIG guys in the last two years. One fact you may not know is they are capable of sensing the shot pattern in the air and will strike for it usually killing themselves in the process. Beautiful creatures but simply too dangerous to leave anywhere near the house. Once you kill one, immediately cut off and bury the head or the yellow jackets will attck it, become invenomated and then attack anything in the area. Thats one problem you really dont want!.-Rob

Dane

Hey that's a pretty good idea too! I will check that out!


Rob

Pal I hate snakes, all snakes, with EXTREME prejudice! I too have killed a lot of snakes, here in SC we have them all, rattles, coppers, cottonmouth (I really hate the cottons) and we even have corals but I have never seen one. Not to mention every other sort! Now these are bad enough and worry me a bit, but I hear Australia has some really ugly buggers and I am going to be there in September! So I figure to have a few shotshells along for those! This is my goal for the near future.

I think you are a pretty sharp fellow, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but you will not catch me getting close enough to "cut ones head off". There will be no days like that! You could have gone all week long without saying that! Gives me the creepy crawls!

Hey I like the quad load, I think I must get some done in .500 caliber!

Thanks
Michael

I am interested in your progress. A number of years ago I did a lot of patterning with T/C contenders in .45/410 with both 10" and 14" barrels with and without chokes. I shot about 200 shells at pattern boards shot size 6, 7.5 and 9. Without the straight finned choke all patterns past 4 yards were doughnuts. I was interested in killing the elusive clay pigeon on the skeet field with the handgun and was looking for 109mm pigeon size holes. With 9's 3-4 yards was max with about 50% of the patterns with no holes. 6's and 7.5's literally had a two yard maximum. I only tried that shot size as I had a box of each but it was interesting. Most of the shells were loaded with no shotcup. Either way they doughnuted and I do not remember which was tighter truthfully. I eventually shot 21/25 as a high score and switched to sporting clays as my shotgun game. From my testing I would think the shot string would doughnut whatever you do.

I have never shot a snake, but I am guessing your .500 would kill one

Matthew

Michael458- I hunted all over OZ for water Buff and Banteng and only saw two snake despite many miles in the bush, one a green snake and the other a dead Taipan run over by our jeep. They are there, but in my experience really got out of your way. I'm very familiar with pacific rattlers and they dont get out of anybody's way. I was bitten by a cottonmouth in Ft Jackson SC when I was stationed there and that was a nasty story. I underestand your dislike for these animals, but I've also seen what happened when a friend didnt cut off the head but instead mounted it on the back porch. His wife and kids were stung and still have the scars from the proteolytic toxin and bee venom. Nasty combo. -Rob

I think the key would be to somehow limit the effects of barrel twist on the shot.

I think you are on the right track trying a shotgun type wad smaller than bore diameter.
It should also help on leading.

Also you might put a felt wad between the powder and the shot cup.

It might absorb some of the force and not allow the shot cup to "slug up" and grip the rifling.

Another thought might be to use lead "balls", as many that will fit inside the case that are just under bore diameter.. They might provide enough of a pattern to kill snakes.

Hopefully you will be able to develop loads that are not only good for snakes but for birds and other small game as well.

African Guinea fowl are very tasty.

Matthewx

Welcome to AR, I see this is your first post!

When it comes to snakes I never take chances, I have high hopes that the .500s will do the job!

Rob
Thanks for the advice on OZ. I think you are most likely correct. After over 20 some odd hunts in Africa I have not seen much either, but it never keeps me from doing a search under my bed at night! Our rattlers here don't get out the way either, and down here on the coast we grow some damn big ones. By profession I am a forester and spent lot's of time in the woods in my youth, it's a wonder I did not get bitten many times. We had some tracts of land that you carried when you stepped out the truck, snakes everywhere! In just a few hours one would shoot 10-12 of the things. Gives me the creeps! I don't go to the woods here much anymore. I will compromise with you--how about I strive to get a load that blows the snakes all to hell and the head can't be found? That way your mission of cutting the heads off is accomplished--and I don't have to get too close! I like that idea better!

NE450

I think the 410 shot cup will work and have some on the way now. I think it is going to limit the amount of shot, but if it eliminates the leading that will be good too. I also have some of that VERY EXPENSIVE ITX shot on the way, I think $120 for 7lbs.

The tighter fitting lead balls could work. I tried some #3 buckshot and it was totally useless-I could not get a single hit in a 6 inch circle at 5 yds with 5 rounds!

Hey guinea fowl is on my list and I have been thinking about that on trips to Africa. Shot patterns in the 50 Super Short-50 B&M and 458 B&M are good at 10 yds and will take guinea fowl. 15 yds is getting to be a stretch. A shot cup in 410 might increase that distance?

I will keep working on it. I am very sure what I do with this can apply to everything else, 458 Win 458 Lott and so forth. I have tried some in the 500 MDM--it holds around 650 grs of shot! But it leads like hell with that much shot in it!

Something else I saw over at the Ballistic site was "mylar wraps"? I have some of these on order too. I am determined to find a way! I should have that order today or Friday. I am quite sure that with the new supplies coming in that I will be testing in the next couple of days. I will keep you posted. Once I get it sorted out I will take it to 458 Winchester, 458 Lott, and 470 Capstick too.

Michael

Michael,This thread,like all your others,is an interesting read,but i think that you are getting a bit paranoid about the snakes you will probably not see.Outfitters like Paul do not expose their clients to dangers like that.not to say that there is not a use for a shot charge from a D.G. rifle . Other uses are for blasting Quolls off your food box,snipping the heads off pigeons and other small game for the pot,.My recipe is a length of brass sink chain coiled in a .458 win over Blue dot with fibre wads cut with a wad punch.no need to get too technical. It also works a treat for beheading guinea fowl in South Africa.Best Regards J.P.

Hey John, where you been?

Yep, I will not disagree about being a bit paranoid about the snake issue! I HOPE I DON"T SEE ANY! I don't want to see any.

I believe in multi purpose, multi use, it's in my nature to make the very most of what I have at the moment. Many times on trips to Africa or other places did I wish for a 22 lr or maybe a shotgun for some guinea fowl or some other small critter. Of course today one can't carry but so many rifles and so much equipment. So I figure if I can sort out a decent shotshell recipe for some of my rifles that might just come in handy. Well I was there almost until this horrendous leading issue, that leads to poor performance of the #1 Primary purpose of the rifle for the first round or two after use of the shotshells. So it is just something to figure out how to have your cake and eat it too.

I will be working on this project today. Tiggertate gave us an excellent source of materials at the Ballistic place. Yesterday I received some of the ITX shot, some mylar wraps, and some 410 shot cups! So I will be testing lots of different combinations of these today and Saturday most likely. I think between all this I can come up with something. I am even going to try some steel bbs wrapped in the mylar to protect the barrel and see how that does. But also if the mylar wrap works with the steel it should stay with the lead or copper coated lead until it leaves the barrel, or I would think? The 410 shot cup I think would solve the issue, however it comes up very short on the amount of shot?

Thanks for the tip on the brass sink chain. That can probably be found at plumbing supply I would think.

I will probably be back on this later today, maybe with some success?

Michael

I'M BACK!!!!!

Well I have no success to tell as of yet concerning this matter! I tried 3 different shot shell arrangements today and none were what I would call successful.

1. #4 ITX shot-this stuff is not lead, but not steel and supposed to be easy on barrels. Has an odd shape, lighter than lead. They only had #4 size so that is what I got. Good news is there was NO LEADING from this at all. Bad news is that it is just not effective, past a couple of yards. Consistency was rather poor and not sure I could have hit a snake at 5 yds or not, it would have been just luck to do so.

2. I took a 410 Shot Cup filled it full of #7 1/2 Copper Coated shot. Once again there was NO LEADING, but it was not effective at all past 5 yds. The shot must be staying in the cup and not contacting the barrel, thus no leading. However it is not very effective in the 50 Super Short at all, somewhat better in the 50 B&M. But neither further than 5 yds and even at that a snake could slip thru I fear!

3. I purchased some of those Mylar wraps. I suppose you put those things inside your case and shot inside that. Well that is what I did anyway! Filled it up with #7 1/2 Copper Coated shot. Just like from my beginning very effective out to 10 yds--extremely effective at 5 yds, but even 5 rds lead the barrel to the point of a less effective 1st round of normal loads. Leading causes loss of velocity and change of impact of the first normal bullet or load shot from the rifle. Sometimes as many as 2 rounds to get back to normal. So while this was a very effective shot shell it still does not overcome the leading issue. I could see no effect the mylar wrap had without the wrap. Of course I might not be using it correctly, or might not be using enough of it???

It seems that success continues to elude me in this endeavor! However, do not fear, I ain't heard no fat lady sing just yet!!!!!!!!

Michael

The .410 shot cup wads must bulge enough to obturate and get some spin from the rifling.

I like that brass-bead-chain-from-the-plumbing-department idea.
I have also seen something like that in some old shotgunning literature somewhere ...
Even if they get some spin, it will work to spread the chain into a pattern that will slice the serpent in two.
Maybe two short chains could be fit into the case and make an X on the serpent's neck.
Should make for some interesting paper patterning tests.

All kinds of "stuff" were tried in cannon and danderbusse back in the day. One of the most amusing was the pair of big iron balls connected by a length of chain and loaded into large cannon. The apparatus often jammed in the bore at ignition with deleterious effect upon the operator ...

Tin foil! If it can keep the martians out of my head, it ought to keep your bore clean!

at the ranges a big bore would enage a snack, do one of the following

1: aim 1/2 way down from his neck to where ... if his head is blown off, 4-8" of "neck" attached is unimportant

2: remember that the muzzle blast of a big bore is about 3' is diameter.. if the snake is too close to aim, stick the barrel within a foot and pulling the trigger WILL stun the @#$@#$ enough to chop, stimp, cut, tear, and burn off his head.


2a: load "special" cases full of h1000 and a wax cap.. to ENSURE firebag and concussion
and the fireball/concussion will be at least as effective as a reduced charge with shot


oh, yeah, i don't care for snakes, but aint skaired

Well let's see
RIP has some good thoughts about the brass chain that dhufish came up with, kinda like that slicing and X ing action.

Macifej and the big iron balls sounds pretty destructive too!

Tigger I am going to try the tin foil, just wait and see! Report on that in the morning!

Jeffe,getting a little close for muzzle blast to do the job! Point is I don't want to be too close you see! I hate the bastards, I wish all of them mass death and destruction, I would nuke 'em if I had one! If I could maybe shoot some sort of exploding firebomb at them? How much H1000 you think? Maybe we making some progress here!

Jeffe if you skairet just say you skairet and be done with it! Maybe with the creepy crawlers I am just a little skairet! I said little!

M

how about #9, 20gr of bullseye, all mixed in together, a shotgun patch on TOP and a wax plug ..

i hate few things.. snakes, in all fashion, are one of them