quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
While the .458 Lott is a very good cartridge, I think the .416 Rigby is more versatile.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Si tu quieres excitación, tienes que comprar un fusil en .416 Weatherby.

Es un cartucho muy poderoso pero tiene mucho retroceso!

George

quote:

Keep in mind most loadings are very mild for the 416 Rigby. It has the potential for a lot more horsepower if you are so inclined. IMHO the 416 is much more than the next step after the 375. I have both the lott and Rigby and prefer the Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
The 458 Lott seems to offer what you want.

You can shoot cheaper (and more available) 458 Winchester ammunition when you want and you can step up to the full power 458 Lott when you want that experience.

Ammunition commonality and expense appear to be the key decision point in your choices. Ammunition expense, availability in Spain, and attraction of a true African DGR round all suggest the 458 Lott is the best choice for you.

quote:

Originally posted by viperidae:
If ammo was equally available and in the same realm price wise then 416 Rigby would be my choice. If that is not the case, or there is any question about it in the future then the Lott is the way to go. Both will kill anything on earth under any conditions, I would make the Lott weigh at pound or two more to control recoil.

quote:

i have a 416 rigby and prefer it to the 458 as it is a little bit more versatile. It will do everything from the buffalo down to the plains game animals, in fact with solids i've had some sucess on meat animals with very very little meat damage... I must admit that except for eland every shot at other plainsgame has been a straight pass through.

shooting recoil is alright when properly fitted. i only use factory ammo and have tried kynoch,federal,hornady. I am exploring having a pro reloader do up some custom loads for me on my next hunt.

rifles like these are not for shooting at targets, I tend to shoot through 10-15 rounds in a practice session, unless you hunt, is a 458 or 416 really what you need? If that is what you want, either will do the job and 458 win and lott ammo maybe more available in europe.



"one of the most common african animals is the common coolerbok(or coleman's coolerbok). Many have been domesticated and can be found in hunting camps, lodges and in the back of vehicles."

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Nostalgia is overrated, and did not factor into my opinion.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
I hear you, Sid. However, 'nostalgia' often comes with a steep premium, and ovny's itch would be well scratched by something like a Ruger #1 in .405 Win. or .450-.400NE.

For you, I'd recommend a Browning BPCR in .40-65. I've handled a couple and they are very, very nice.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
All the classic British calibers have an appeal that cannot be matched by the newer rounds. No matter which British cartridge you prefer, you will find lots of great information and wonderful stories about it in many books and print articles.

The more modern rounds like the 458 Lott and 470 Capstick to name but two, may be technically superior in some cases but, they will never have the nostalgia on older British round has. The hunts that built the classic British rifles and cartridges into legends are not possible today (hunts are terribly expensive and the number of available animals is more restricted and controlled) so, the newer cartridges will never have the opportunity to see similar use to build a similar "legendary" reputation.

For a pure collector firearm, I would be very tempted to get a Rigby with the Nitro Express rifles coming in a close second. Assuming I will carry a bolt action and not a classic double, I would want a more modern cartridge in a bolt action rifle if I ever took one on a Dangerous Game hunt. For nostalgia on range days at a local sports club, I would prefer a classic British cartridge in a classic British double.



Don't let the poll results determine your choice. Choose the one that personally moves you for reasons personally important to you. Neither caliber is a bad choice so, you will not "go wrong" with either.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Nostalgia is overrated, and did not factor into my opinion.

I think the .416 Rem. is more practical than the .416 Rigby AS LONG AS 400grs. @ 2400fps is considered sufficient. However, that was not offered as an option.

The cost of components also did not factor into my thinking as the question was, 'which big bore do you like?', not which big bore is better.

I have a .470 Capstick, and if I ever got my ass in gear, I'd have a .458AR, too.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Nostalgia is overrated, and did not factor into my opinion.

George

I generally agree with what you are saying. However, there is a difference IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) between someone buying a rifle to hunt Dangerous Game and someone who just wants a big thumper to punch paper. The original poster is not going on an African Safari and suggests he is not going to shoot the rifle a lot. When it is shot, it will be at a range and at paper targets. I think the nostalgia of an older round will have an appeal at the side of a nice fire with friends in his home country that a modern round would not have. I mean no disrespect to the original poster (or some of my friends) but, he does not appear to be a real hunter with this rifle so esoteric discussions of modern cartridges over a nostalgic one make me favor a classic cartridge choice.

For a safe queen, I'd much rather have a classic British double from the cordite era then a modern wonder gun in some modern firearm. If I were going to actively hunt Dangerous Game, I would want the best modern firearms technology I could put in my hands. I'm actually considering the purchase of a 416 Remington Magnum because I want something I can personally handle in a modern firearm that I can use on a non-African hunt. I seriously considered a 416 Rigby and unlike some of my friends passed on the 458 Winchester Magnum. I still sort of regret not buying a 470 Capstick many years ago and seriously considered the 458 Lott recently but, it's just too much for me and my expected uses. I still think a 375 H&H might be a better choice but, I really want a ~.40 caliber rifle.

Best Regards,
Sid

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
I hear you, Sid. However, 'nostalgia' often comes with a steep premium, and ovny's itch would be well scratched by something like a Ruger #1 in .405 Win. or .450-.400NE.

For you, I'd recommend a Browning BPCR in .40-65. I've handled a couple and they are very, very nice.

George

It sounds like you and I have some common thoughts and interests, just from slightly different perspectives.

I own a 45-70 and a couple of nice black powder six-shooters but, I'm not really a Black Powder sort of guy and I never warmed up to the SASS (Single Action Shooters Society) cowboy competitions like some of my friends.

I don't know what these rifles cost the OP (original poster) in Spain but, a Ruger No. 1 and a CZ-USA Safari Magnum costs are basically the same for me personally. That makes a CZ Safrai Magnum a tempting choice and it is only offered in 4 calibers. Heck, if they made one in 470 Capstick I would probably impulse buy one because I keep kicking myself for passing on that old Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Just my two cents. Both are great cartridges for what they were designed to do. The .416 is more versatile, as others have said.

If money is an issue, the cost of the rifle, within reason, pales in comparison with the cost of running ammunition through it (at factory prices). I chose a .416 Rem. over Rigby for that reason. Although I've not taken elephant with it, I wouldn't hesitate to and the .416 has performed admirably for everything up to buffalo (and down to turkey).

I've got a .458 Lott and I like it, but it is not nearly as versatile as a .416. Big bump up on recoil with the .458 Lott and it's definitely not a long range cartridge. Just food for thought. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
Oscar,

You make a very compelling case for purchasing a 458 Lott caliber rifle. The 416 Rigby appears to be a more versatile cartridge as noted by other people in this thread. However, with your budget I think ammunition cost will be an issue for you in the 416 Rigby caliber. The versatility the 416 Rigby gives you would be of value only if you hunted with the cartridge. Since this rifle and the ammunition are not going to be used in the "field" on game animals, the shorter range and reduced versatility of the 458 Lott is not a significant negative issue in your case.

My main reservation with recommending the 458 Lott is your ability to handle the recoil. The fact that you can shoot soft 458 Winchester Magnums in the same rifle minimizes this concern since you have a good path to reduced recoil cartridges. I am dealing with the recoil issue myself due to a back injury from a car crash (I was hit from behind and had my car totaled). I handload ammunition so, my path to control recoil is to load reduced ammunition. This also helps me minimize my cost for expensive cartridges.

Further, the ammunition cost is an issue I think I initially did not consider as much as I should. With your financial constraints, I have a hard time recommending the 416 Rigby. What good is it to own a rifle you cannot afford to shoot? Granted your round counts are pretty low but, 20 rounds every 3 months would be a pretty big expense for your budget. I sometimes overlook the issue of the round counts (number of cartridges fired in a shooting session or over a period of time) because I have taken 4 day pistol classes where I expended 2,000 rounds of ammunition, shoot a full-auto that will dump 100 rounds of ammunition downrange in about 6 seconds, and I shoot a 40mm M203 grenade launcher which makes a lot of DGR ammunition cheap in comparison.

The 416 Rigby is twice as expensive as the 458 Lott based on a quick check of ammunition prices I have access to in the USA. The 458 Winchester Magnum using the same high quality ammunition from a premium manufacturer is 20% cheaper then the same ammunition in 458 Lott. I think with some more searching, I could find good 458 Winchester Magnum ammunition that is 40% cheaper then the 458 Lott ammunition. I do not know if these relative cost differences are the same in Spain but, I expect the relative cost differences will be similar. Whether this would translate into saving 50 Euros or 200 Euros every 3 months is an issue you should consider.

Best Regards,
Sid

quote:

Originally posted by JKS:
I shoot both the Rigby and Lott. The Lott is my sweetheart, shooting 405s for varmints and full 500gr loads for busting rocks and sh#ts and giggles. The Lott is more economical to load for, whether for practice or big stuff. The Rigby is sexier, and with 300-325gr bullets a viable longer range weapon. Both are fine rounds. I just love busting ground squirrels with a 405gr at 2400 so I am biased toward the Lott

As I always say, choose the round/rifle you want and shoot the crap out of it! Fun in the field (and real world results) beats internet bullshit and chatter by far

John

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Just my two cents. Both are great cartridges for what they were designed to do. The .416 is more versatile, as others have said.

If money is an issue, the cost of the rifle, within reason, pales in comparison with the cost of running ammunition through it (at factory prices). I chose a .416 Rem. over Rigby for that reason. Although I've not taken elephant with it, I wouldn't hesitate to and the .416 has performed admirably for everything up to buffalo (and down to turkey).

I've got a .458 Lott and I like it, but it is not nearly as versatile as a .416. Big bump up on recoil with the .458 Lott and it's definitely not a long range cartridge. Just food for thought. Good luck.

Hey, a thousand thanks for your vote and your answer, I would like to buy a 416 Reminton Magnum , but ask my usual armory and was unaware of the existence of the Remington 700 rifle Do you know of any other brand of rifle recognized recamare their weapons for the 416 RM ? If so Tell me which I would be very grateful. As for versatibilidad, I think that having a 375 H & H Magnum, the quality that I have already covered do not you think?

A greeting,

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
Oscar,

The issue with distance and a less aerodynamic cartridge is range estimation. When you shoot a larger diameter bullet with a blunter profile (flatter "nose" that is less aerodynamic), range estimation and "hold over" become much more important. You will be shooting at fixed distances so, range estimation skill is not required. Different loads (458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, light bullets, heavy bullets, etc.) will all have slightly different trajectories (flight paths). At 100 Meters the shot groups in the target will move a few inches (~10 cm) but, should still easily print on paper. Once you find your favorite factory loads, you will adjust your sights and "hold over" to hit the center of the target. As a shorter range round, you are less likely to use it for long range shots to put meat in the cooking pot when you are out on Safari. Could you shoot an Antelope at 400 yards? Sure but, the arc of the bullet trajectory would make it much tougher then a flatter shooting cartridge.

For deer, several of my shooting buddies bought rifles in various 7mm and 300 Magnums for their higher velocities and flatter trajectories. This minimizes the effect of poor range estimation and is good for bragging rights (machismo) at work and at the gun club. However, most people are using calibers that are not as sexy or trendy like the 243 Winchester, 30-30, and 308 Winchester. The hardest hitting caliber is not required to be effective on game animals.

When you understand the range you are shooting at, any caliber of sufficient velocity and mass can be very effective at reasonable ranges. Black Powder rifles were effective on American Buffalo at ranges in excess of 100 meters. I have seen people that are much better shots then I use a 30-30 lever action rifle at the 600 yard line at a local rifle match. Shots like these will really test the skill of a novice shooter but, are not too difficult when an experienced shooter knows their rifle and ammunition.

If you were in Africa with a regulated rifle (fixed sights) and badly missed your range estimation, that charging Dangerous Game animal could really hurt you. Your rifle will have adjustable sights that will be adjusted for the range you shoot. There is no risk of injury if you miss your shot so a lot of the differences between the 416 Rigby and 458 Lott are not meaningful in your use. The better short range performance versus the better versatility of one cartridge versus the other is not significant in your use.

If you want to factor in versatility of the 416 Rigby being better than the 458 Lott, how do you account for your 375 H&H? You are not selling your 375 H&H rifle are you? The 458 Lott is a better compliment to the 375 H&H. On a safari, you would use the 375 H&H for camp meat and the 458 Lott for Dangerous Game.

Best Regards,
Sid

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Just my two cents. Both are great cartridges for what they were designed to do. The .416 is more versatile, as others have said.

If money is an issue, the cost of the rifle, within reason, pales in comparison with the cost of running ammunition through it (at factory prices). I chose a .416 Rem. over Rigby for that reason. Although I've not taken elephant with it, I wouldn't hesitate to and the .416 has performed admirably for everything up to buffalo (and down to turkey).

I've got a .458 Lott and I like it, but it is not nearly as versatile as a .416. Big bump up on recoil with the .458 Lott and it's definitely not a long range cartridge. Just food for thought. Good luck.

Hey, a thousand thanks for your vote and your answer, I would like to buy a 416 Reminton Magnum , but ask my usual armory and was unaware of the existence of the Remington 700 rifle Do you know of any other brand of rifle recognized recamare their weapons for the 416 RM ? If so Tell me which I would be very grateful. As for versatibilidad, I think that having a 375 H & H Magnum, the quality that I have already covered do not you think?

A greeting,

Oscar.

Oscar,

Ammunition availability will be a real issue for you if you buy a 416 Remington Magnum. The various metric calibers and older British calibers are going to much easier for you to locate and purchase in Spain. I doubt you really want to import 416 Remington Magnum ammunition into Spain. The expense to export it from the USA and to import into the European Union would be significant. At least the ammunition is not classified as a tool of war (it is sporting ammunition not military ammunition so export is possible).

You could import a USA manufactured rifle. Remington rifles are imported into the European Union so, that is a minor bureaucratic hurdle to overcome. In fact, I am considering the purchase of one right now in the $1500 range. With the weak American dollar to Euro conversion rates, the cost of that rifle is ~1,000 Euros. However, the costs of export and import will put it out of your price range. Ammunition won’t be as cost effective (“cheap”) for you in Spain as it would be for myself in the USA.

Be sure to discuss ammunition availability and expense with your local dealer. As other people have mentioned, the initial purchase of the rifle is only the starting point. The expense of ammunition is more significant over time. 5 Euros versus 10 Euros a round will become an issue after you purchase your rifle.

Best Regards,
Sid

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
http://www.norma.cc/content.as...20Remington%20Magnum

I found the 416 Remington Magnum listed on the Norma homepage. This cartridge might be more available in Europe then I initially thought.

Also, since it appears CZ offers the 416 Remington Magnum in their premium model Safari Magnums it may be cost effective to do a barrel swap. If I had your experiences with the 375 H&H rifle, I doubt I would rebarrel it though. A good rifle with good memories in the field on memorable hunts is not replaced easily.

quote:

I just spoke with the CZ USA representative regarding these rifles. The Safari Classics are available in most standard calibers. He also stated their literature was based on the 2007 catalog so, everything was out of date.

You may want to talk with a factory representative because I think the rifles you and I are looking at are the same. CZ USA gets their rifles from the same plant as your rifle (even the literature appears to be the same) so, we should have the same options. He did state that the rifles built in "non-standard" calibers started life as just an action since they needed a new barrel. The 458 Lott arrived in the USA as a complete barreled action so, it was cheaper as a Safari Classic. The same was true for the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby too.