My understanding is that in the beginning the 12.7x70mm Schuler and the .500 Jeffery were identical. I have seen posts recommending the CIP 2000 .500 Jeffery reamer which of course makes me believe there is a difference between the Schuler and the Jeffery case deminsions. I have seen new Westley Richards factory ammunition head stamped .500 Schuler and I have seen new Kynoch headstamped .500 Jeffery.

Is this an important difference or can custom dies be made for the Schuler chamber? Personally, I like the nostalgia of owning a 12.7x70mm Schuler. I've seen the Schuler on the Champlin's website.

Thank you in advance for your input.

There is a "Jeffery," a "Schuler," and a "Romey Hybrid."

.500 Jeffery: Kynoch 1928 drawing shows 12.63-degree shoulder semi-angle.

12.7x70mm Schuler: RWS 1940 drawing shows 23.54-degree shoulder semi-angle.

.500 Jeffery: Romey 1997 drawing shows 19.97-degree "Hybrid" shoulder semi-angle.


Three different shoulders. Search for Alf's elucidations here, complete with drawings of the relationship of shoulder angles.

I do have the monograph on this, courtesy of Alf and his RSA Big Bore friends.

Dies should be made specific to the chamber being used. The same brass will work in all of them when properly formed.

The original 1928 500 Jeffery ammo will chamber in all three rifles.

The original Schuler ammo will not chamber in the other two, only works in the Schuler.

Draw those shoulder angles all terminating near the same point at neck-1 (shoulder-neck juncture), but widely divergent at beginning of shoulder: three different headspaces.

Where is that drawing? Search ...

RIP

Whats the best for a new rifle to be chambered. I assume everyone is moving to the new Romey 1997? I want a 500 Jeffery that will fire and function with Jamison brass.

Thanks

Brad

Thank you Ron. Please answer Brad's question before he runs himself crazy....

CIP Listing:

http://www.poliisi.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/AE55118...DE/$file/TABIcal.pdf

Thanks to ForrestB.

Study the CIP drawings for the Max Cartridge and Minimum Chamber specs for:

1. 500 Jeffery

2. 12.7x70 (500 Schuler)

The 500 Schuler shoulder in CIP is same as the Romey Hybrid in Alf's monograph.

The 500 Jeffery shoulder is the same in CIP as in the monograph.

It seems the only consistant one everywhere you look is the original 1928 Kynoch 500 Jeffery.

Kynoch and CIP show it as the one and only 500 Jeffery.

It would be the surest thing to specify the original 500 Jeffery (CIP) to get dies to match rifle chamber.

or
Use the CIP specs for the 500 Schuler, and make your brass headstamp match the barrel engraving if traveling.

The CIP shoulder semi-angles for the maximum brass are:

500 Jeffery: 12.65 degrees
12,7x70 (500 Schuler): 19.96 degrees

Forget the Romey Hybrid. It is not CIP.

Just my 2 cents.

email CZ and empire rifles, ask them which print they are using, and go with that.

empire has made more 500s this YEAR than schuler and jeffery ever made.... no joke

and with CZ coming out with one (and I believe it is the same print) THAT defines the modern market...

jeffe

Duane Wiebe who posts here can tell you the best way to approach a 5oo that will function with your ammo. I noted that the 5oo Jeffery ammo from Westley-Richards was marked Schuler on the box. MUFASA

Or did they just mix up the Schuler and the Romey on this drawing?



19.97-degree semi-angle or 19.96-degree by my rounding method calculated from the CIP specs for the 12.7x70 Schuler (500 Schuler).

There is only one 500 Schuler.
There is only one 500 Jeffery.

Can you tell me which .500 Jeffery/Schuler is diagramed in the A-Square manual Any Shot You Want?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Can you tell me which .500 Jeffery/Schuler is diagramed in the A-Square manual Any Shot You Want?

That would be as close as can be to the 12.7x70 Schuler (500 Schuler).

It has a 20-degree shoulder (semi-angle) and Art calls it the 500 Jeffery.

It is actually the 500 Schuler.

19.96 or 19.97 degrees is "20-degrees" for practical purposes, and A-Square purposes.

Art made statements in the 500 Jeffery section about he and Dave Manson finding an original drawing of the 500 Jeffery and using that to make the A-Square standard. They must have found the 500 Schuler specs.

Art never did get CIP to change the 500 Jeffery specs to the 500 Schuler specs, but apparently he was trying to.

The A-square "500 Jeffery" is in fact the 500 Schuler according to the drawing in _Any Shot You Want_.

Tha

Thank you Ron. I think the .500 Schuler-Jeffery is worth trying to understand its history.

Do you know what changes were made in the 2000 CIP that are different?

CIP Listing:

http://www.poliisi.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/AE55118...DE/$file/TABIcal.pdf

Thanks to ForrestB.

************************************************

The specs in this are all I know.
They are CIP. No others need apply for the title of "500 Jeffery" or "12.7x70 Schuler (500 Schuler)."

The finer points of mass confusion since the 1920's will have to be left to scholars like ALF.

Which came first, the Schuler or the Jeffery?

I've been trying to click on ForrestB's link since you first posted. No luck. I'll keep trying.

If I was forced to bet, I'd say the Schuler came first because of the efforts to squeeze it into a standard Mauser. But, The .425 Westley Richards was also squeezed into a standard Mauser so, bottom line I don't know.

Thanks for taking time to comment.

If you look up the dates in that CIP spec tabulation:

12,7x70 (500 Schuler)
Date: 98-01-27 = Jan. 1, 1998
Revised: 02-05-15 = May 15, 2002

500 Jeffery
Date: 99-01-12 = Jan. 12, 1999
Revised: 02-05-15 = May 15, 2002

Looks like the final versions shown were certified on the same date, 2002.

IIRC, the Schuler and the Jeffery were developed at the same time, 1927 to 1928.

I think Jeffery copied Schuler. The shoulder angles of ammo supplied with Jeffery headstamp varied year to year since 1928, and from maker to maker.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Alf must be in Africa.

Buliwyf,
Ah, so. If my link is not working here for you, try the one in the Gunsmithing forum where ForrestB first posted it. I will BTT it there. Also searching "CIP" in that forum is how I found it again.

Thanks Charles. I just got it to open. Complicated drawings!(at least for me). I will be occupied for a while.

1. Chamber it with a CIP spec Schuler reamer.

2. Engrave the barrel: "500 Jeffery"

Jeffery borrowed the idea from Schuler anyway,
and Jeffery has the "panache" and better brass headstamp availability, doesn't it?

RCBS "500 Jeffery" reloading dies are said to be Schuler spec anyway.

I think the "old" RCBS dies were Schuler Spec. I'm trying to find out about the "new" RCBS dies if they are CIP 2000.

Hey Check my logic here.

1. Get a 500 Jeffery Reamer Made to C.I.P. 2002 Specs

2. Chamber my RSM with this reamer.

3. Get Dies made based on the Reamer print

4. Use NEW Jamison brass resize it with my new dies and shoot this ammo only in my rifle.


Thanks

Brad

Brad,

The steps you outline will ensure you have a safe and successful completed project and money not wasted.

Schüler Horneber brass to the left (albeit marked .500 Jeffery), Jeffery Bertram brass to the right. You can shoot them all in a Schüler chamber I believe.

Boha,
Thanks for the great comparison of the "20-degree" (19.96-degree) Schuler shoulder to the 12.65-degree Jeffery shoulder.

The old 500 Jeffery cartridge posted above was one of Fletcher Jamieson's originals, according to the post by Alf.

Note the pull marks on the bullet. Apparently it was problematic ammo that was prone to misfire, so ended up as a dummy.

That makes me wonder if Jamieson had a 500 Schuler chamber and 500 Jeffery ammo.

I suppose 500 Jeffery ammo in a 500 Jeffery chamber would be just as reliable as 500 Schuler ammo in a 500 Schuler chamber, but I like the Schuler shoulder better.

I don't known if it's germane to this topic, but a Schueler "Jumbo" rifle turned up recently here in New Zealand which was stamped 12.6 x70.
It is, according to the owner, the same as the 12.7x70.

I really hope that someone places this info somewhere on the web and bookmarks it. So people don't have to search like I did even though it was educational the photo's completely clarified the differences.

Thanks Again

Brad

Seems like the Shuler is the best option, as it'll chamber any of the brass.

This thread has been good as it's finally cleared up my confusion about the issue. Now I suppose I should look at my fired brass and try and figure out what chamber I have, as well as compare it to my CH4D dies to figure out what they are cut to.

Paul:

Could you please check this out and post your results. I would like to order some CH4D dies and want know know what they are ie 500 Jeffery or Schuler.

Thanks

Brad

It'll probably be awhile before I get around to it.

That said, I'd avoid the CH4D dies. The seater was useless as delivered, as it was reamed for a 0.505" bullet! I figure anyone that can't do it right the first time, especially for $140 for a set that had been sitting on their shelf for several years, couldn't be trusted not to F it up by fixing it. So I lapped out the die myself. This is my first and last set of CH4D dies.

If I were you, I would have the chamber cast to be certain of the actual angles of the cartridge. This is a cheap, accurate way to determine exactly what you have.

As for me, I'll use my 500 Jeffery dies from North Devon as a partial neck sizer and crimper for the 500 Mbogo until I get the custom dies made.

By the time Stuart Satterlee finishes my stainless magnum Mauser action I will have settled for a CZ 550 Magnum in 500 Mbogo, and will have to consider stooping to a 500 Schuler.

I use Horneber brass and bought a new set of RCBS dies from Huntingtons and it seems to work fine in my CZ.

Does anyone know if Huntingtons has any Jamison .500 Jeffery brass yet?

Dave

The Don,

Question: How will you configure your stainless steel Mauser action? Do you use a SS barrel, SS quarter rib etc. or do you blue the SS? What stock material?

Buliwyf,
If it comes to that, I would of course use a stainless barrel, 10" twist, 23" length, .820" to .870" at the muzzle to balance. I believe Stuart is one of the few, the proud, the cocky who can do a feed job right on a 500 Schuler or 500 Jeffery.

I would then put it in a McMillan stock made for the CZ 550 Magnum and do the boat building and auto body work to finish the stock myself.

Barrel fixtures can be chrome-moly or stainless. No quarter rib please, but an integral island rear sight base and integral lug on the barrel, please. Banded front sight and barrel band sling swivel base please.

All the steel will be finished matte black or gray like this:



Our Euro friends will find it easier than US to get reamers and dies to match from:

www.triebel-guntools.de

Ron,

Are you negative on quarter ribs across the board or just on a .500?

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Ron,

Are you negative on quarter ribs across the board or just on a .500?

What? Me negative? No, neither negative nor positive on quarter ribs. They are just unimportant to me. Take'em or leave'em, makes no difference to me. What are they really useful for besides as an aesthetically pleasing scout scope base? I am neutral on scout scopes too.

I think that quarter ribs make sense on single-shot, falling block rifles like the Ruger No.1.

Too bad the Ruger No.1 quarter rib is not integral.

I'm trying to make a few decisions so just looking for input.

I've seen a couple of big .500 Schulers with the Island rear sight and they seemed to look just right on the .500 for some reason over a quarter rib.

The quarter rib may act as a useful "strongback" or stiffner for the rifle (Only a WAG on my part). Quarter ribs are pleasing to look at and damn expensive.

Agree on the Ruger No.1 quarter rib. My WAG here is because Ruger offers the Varmint Model with target blocks so manufacturing process fits either quarter rib or target block attachment to barrel.

Here's some input; to get a well balanced .500 cal rifle you really need to have a lot of weight between your hands, that is close to the chamber, which would require some substantial barrel thickness. This requires some special work on the rib.
Here's a pic of an original with rib, Alf's I believe, found on these forums.


I have a Recknagel Island rear sight on mine. Here's a pic of my good friend Cewe getting ready to squeeze off a friendly round with my .500 Jeffery.


And I just love my .500
Boha

Thank you boha. Please tell me a little more about your 500:

1. Is this a custom rifle?
2. Is it the Schuler chamber or newer Jeffery CIP spec chamber?
3. What action is it built on?
4. Do you handload for the .500?
5. I've heard accuracy with the .500 Jeffery can be MOA.

Thanks boha.

The Schuler has a longer neck than the Jeffery. The long-sloped shoulder on the Jeffery makes for a shorter neck, less bullet grip in magazine battering.

quote:

Originally posted by boha:

Schüler Horneber brass to the left (albeit marked .500 Jeffery), Jeffery Bertram brass to the right. You can shoot them all in a Schüler chamber I believe.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Thank you boha. Please tell me a little more about your 500:

1. Is this a custom rifle?
2. Is it the Schuler chamber or newer Jeffery CIP spec chamber?
3. What action is it built on?
4. Do you handload for the .500?
5. I've heard accuracy with the .500 Jeffery can be MOA.
QUOTE]

1. Yes. Sam Bjorkholm, Finland, built it and bedded it. I formed and finished the stock myself.
2. The barrel was bought chambered from Lothar Walther, and subsequently chambered as 12,7x70. (The Horneber brass is marked .500 Jeffery, so in order not to confuse any over-zelous official I marked the barrel ".500 Jeffery" and in smaller print ".500 2.76" - 12,7x70")
3. The action is a standard Mauser 98, actually a Husqvarna 640 = FN Mauser 98 without the thumb opening on the reciever. The mag takes three rounds down, and the top round is chambered = 1 + 2.
4. Yes, handloading is the only way to go if you want to shoot it. Never seen any ctgs for sale around here. Horneber brass, Woodleighs and Stewarts 535 grs bullets, 102,5 grs of Vihtavuori N140, 2300 - 2310 fps.
5. I use open sights only. It was zeroed with a file in the white. Always hits to the point of aim. Practically dead on to 100m, about 7 inch low at 150. I am certain it would produce sub MOA groups with a scope.

Boha

Very helpful comments Boha and of course, a very lovely rifle.

Talking with you and RIP, I'm thinking I would like the original classic 12.7x70mm Schuler reamer. As long as you know what your chamber is cut for and have your dies made to match I don't see any problems.

The big 500 Schuler is calling to me....