The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 win. mag. AA2230, Hornady DGX and DGS UPDATEDGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
After doing a bit of research here on AR, I decided to buy an older Browning Safari Rifle (FN long extractor) and found one made in 1965. Very nice looking 458 win. mag. Had the rifle check out by Roger Ferrall, who did bed the rifle, checked feeding and function, sights, etc. Roger got 2000fps with Winchester 510gr factory loads and 1 3/8" four shot groups @ 100 yds. I went to the range today and thought I would give a limited report. The following information is only safe in my rifle do not use these loads. Work up from a Reloading Manual, starting at a lower charge! Part of the reason I am listing this information is to let you know that the information contained in Hornady's most recent manual could be "hot" with some loads listed. I used Hornady Brass while the Hornady Manual list Winchester Brass and I used the new Hornday bullets not the old style, otherwise I used the same components but obviously a different rifle. Browning Safari Rifle 24" barrel, 1965 vintage Hornady 458 win. mag. brass Winchester Mag. Primers Hornady 500 grain (DGX) softs 73 grains of AA2230 Crimped: Lee Factory Crimp Die Temp: 45F I cleaned the rifle last night. Set-up a target a 50 yds. Chronograph 10 feet from muzzle. Velocity of 4 shots: 2195fps, 2209fps,2210fps, and 2215fps. First shot from a cold bore was 1/2" from the next 3 shots. The last three shots essentially went in the same hole. I did not see an signs of excess pressure, at the range, brass easily extracted and primers lookded good but still I will back off on the powder charge in the future. Given the velocity I was getting with this load @ 45F, I just stopped. I had some 500 grain DGS (Hornady Solids) loaded @ 73 grains and more of both DGX and DGS @ 74 grains. I decided to pull the bullets and work up a lighter loads. I really like the Browning Safari Rifle. It is nicely balanced, trim, and light weight rifle...very glad I made this purchase. I plan on doing much more testing with different bullets, loads, etc. and as available will pass information on. Hope you all have a wonderful and Happy New Year! | ||
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jjs, I would not use that Hornady data either. You and I have the same gun. My data was about 30-40 FPS slower than yours but we did use some different components. I use Rem brass and Fed 215 primers and a simple roll crimp (same projectile). My gun took the 74 gr of 2230 to reach the levels yours did. BTW; I like my Browning as well! | |||
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On a different post, I mentioned that I spoke with the ballistician at Accurate Powder and asked him about the Hornady manual figures. He told me they are correct. He said to work up starting at 71 grains and take it from there. He mentioned that, at a certain point, increased powder charges may result in reduced velocities. I will use 74 grains behind a 500 A Frame out of a 22" barrel, which should take me to 2150 or better. That is the load preferred by my last African PH who has been using it for years in a custom rifle with a Douglas 22" barrel on a Husqvarna action. He loads both A Frame softs and Hornady solids, the old ones, at that charge and has never had a problem, regardless of temperature. | |||
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As I have posted about 9 times so far..... It is DANGEROUS to use Hornady loading data for the .458WM. Hornady's maximum AA2230 load in my manual is 6 or 7 grains heavier than the load I use to get 2200 fps with a 500 grain Barnes. I fired one shot only with a Barnes bullet and using 1 grain less than Hornady's maximum. It chronographed 2376 fps! A very shiny mark was left on the end of the case. And I had to whang the bolt pretty hard to get it to open. Firing any more shots with that load would be DANGEROUS. As for Remington brass, I would weigh several cases and compare them with others. I've not used Remington in the .458 but in .300 Weathereby, Remington cases weigh 20 grains more than Norma. This means that the Remington cases have less case capacity, and will produce either lower velocities or higher pressures or, most likely, both. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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Thanks for the very useful comments, gents, I have a 1964 vintage Safari and am going to have Ralf Martini's shop install a Duane Weibe dropmag and some sort of synthetic stock, plus some superior irons,maybe Wisner's or Recknagels. I have shot some warm cast loads, but, have only two boxes of SAF-450s, very hard to get here in BC, and have held off loading these until the rifle is finished. Based on advice from Indy on 24Hr. when I go this rifle in early 2008, I have five lbs. of 2230 and expect to use about 74-75 grs. for hunting loads under the 450. | |||
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Try Hodgdon's website and check their load data? H335 or Varget look like a good powders to start with. My .02 cents worth. | |||
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Dewey, Just a note. I have 4 safari grade rifles. 2 on sako short actions and 2 on FN LE actions. I am not sure if the metal used to make the FN actions is 4140 (Chrome moly). I had heard at one time it was chrome vanadium. It appears more apt to rust than std 4140. The same thing on most Kimber non stainless rifles (Yonkers). In your neck of the woods where there is a lot of moisture, might want to consider a alternative coating other than blueing. I have a Browning sweet 16 shotgun from that era that required additional attention as well with regard to frequent oiling. Not caused by salt in any stocks; just surface rust. EZ | |||
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I have had a half-dozen Belgian Brownings and used some of them hard as working guns while in BC bush work. I have had no rust issues, but, I do wax and oil my guns carefully. I wish that Browning would bring these back, made in Belgium and with late '50s-early '60s quality and STEEL bottom metal. I bet that they could sell all they could produce and import at prices in the Dakota 76 range. I just have a 1961 .30-06 and the .458 now and am finised buying rifles, as I have over 30 and will never use them all. But, if a minty one of these in .338WM comes along, well.......... | |||
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Any know if the Browning Safari was offered in 375H&H caliber? 465H&H | |||
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I had one, with custom irons and some other mods. It would shoot WW STs into .5" consistently, but, I also had three P-64 Mod. 70s in .375H&H at the time, so, sold it. I LIKE the "short mags." i.e, .338WM in FN actions, but, I never liked the feeling of the .375s in any Mauser actioned rifle I have tried. The Brownings have alloy BM, a major "No No" for me and only hold 3+1, while a P-64 is longer, feeds more smoothly to me, anyway and holds 4+1, which I consider an advantage as the stock profile is no deeper. Safaris in .375 are quite common and a nice one will run you maybe $1500.00. A choice P-64 in n.375 now will go nearly twice that figure. In today's world, I would tend to buy a Winny Classic in .375, put a dropmag on it, have somebody like Penrod tune it and put it in a Micky Safari stock, would add Recknagels, too. This is, IMO, the cheapest route for a good .375, unless you luck into a P-64 or Safari cheap. Not very likely! | |||
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allow me to interject.. it is DANGEROUS to use load data from one bullet to another. NEVER EVER use conventional bullet data with monometal bullets.. All risk belongs to the reloader, or loader, or handloader ... Indy, NEVER use conventional bullet loads with barnes bullets of the same weight - you WILL have huge pressure issues .. lucky nothing hurt anything
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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A 375 H&H browning Safari (FN / LE) will bring about the most money of any Safaris except one odd ball you might locate in a 308 or 358 Norma Mag which is just a very low production unit. I had a new in the box 338 for quite a few years but it was a later production push feed unit probably made in the early 70's. Never shot it but made a profit on the sale. I would like to add a 358 Norma if I ever came across one. I may have seen one in my life time. EZ | |||
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I'm sorry folks, but in 34 years of reloading, I've never started "one grain less than maximum". Every reloading manual I've ever read admonishes us to start low and work up. Substituting a single component - primer, case maufacturer, bullet or even with a new lot of powder, primers or cases requires backing off from whatever was "OK" before and starting again. Why take a chance with your life for a few fps? NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Didn't read your post Jeffe but 100% behind you there as well. Monometals do not equal cup and core. Further, even bullets with similar design will generate different pressures. Nosler Partition reloading data should never be used with Swift A-Frames without starting low and working up. Both are copper/lead partition designs, SAF generate much higher pressures than NPs of the same weight given same case, powder and primer. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I loaded up some additional 458 win. mag. and shot them this morning. Same disclaimer as above. Do not use these loads. Work up your own loads from a reloading manual. Always start with reduced charges and work up from there. Rifle: Browning Safari 24" barrel 458 win. mag. Brass: Hornady Primer: Winchester Mag. Powder: AA 2230 Bullets: Hornady DGX (Softs) and DGS (Solids) Crimped: Lee Factory Crimp Die Conditions: 25F, did I say it was cold! Chronographed 10 feet from muzzle. Load #1: 71 grains of AA 2230: 3 shot string of DGX (Softs) at 2153fps, 2147fps, and 2151fps. Load #2: 71 grains of AA 2230: 3 shot string of DGS (Solids) 2151fps, 2152fps, 2150fps. These 6 shots made one bit hole at 50 yds! Load #3: 72 grains of AA 2230: 4 shot string of DGX (Softs) 2163fps, 2162fps, 2163fps, and 2163fps. Load #4: 72 grains of AA 2230: 2 shot string of DGS (Solids) 2153fps and 2158fps. I think I will wait for some warmer weather to do further testing. Thinking about giving H335 and another AA powder a try. AA 2230 seems to work very well and my rifle likes it. With warmer weather I expect some velocity increase over what results I obtained today. Not sure how temp. sensitive AA powders are but even the less temp. sensitive powders I used in the past show velocity increase from 25F to 80+F. When it gets to 80+F I am going to start at 69-70 grains of AA 2230 to see what velocity changes occur. Hope this helps. | |||
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Why don't you call up Accurate and talk to the ballistician. He's a nice South African guy. Like HE said, start at 71 grains and work up. Your mileage may vary. I think he knows the limits of his own powders. One would assume so, anyway. | |||
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Yes. My hunting buddy just took his to Tanzania in July. | |||
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I see Accurate has a web site and just went there. They show starting loads @ 64.8 grains with a max. load of 72 grains with a 500 grain Hornady RN bullet. | |||
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| Moderator |
Let me be a little MORE blunt. DOn't use hornady reloading data with Barnes monometal bullets. This WILL lead to pressure issues, if not death and injury. REALLY QL projects 22THOUSAND pis increase at same OAL 1.64" for the barnes75gr usable case capacity 1.338" for the hornady 87.54gr usable capacity DO NOT SWAP BULLETS AND NOT REWORK YOUR LOAD! JD, I am not being hard on you -- this is "real" and needs to be laid out. 22,000 PSI JUMP for swapping to the barnes bullet using the hornady load is UNSAFE opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Just to try and compare apples to apples here: I've never used AA2230 in my 458WM, but have some on order... But I have used a couple cans of H335, mostly with the 500gr Hor RN. It's a powder listed in 3 of my manuals for the 458WM: Hodgdon No.27; Hornady No.7 and Barnes No.4 In Hodgdon and Hornady it's used with the 500gr Hornady RN in 24" barrels, so it's possible to make approximate comparisons. It also appears in Barnes for the 500gr Banded, which provides comparative velocities, but perhaps more importantly, how much LESS H335 it takes to produce about 20fps MORE muzzle velocity. These are max loads in all manuals: Hodgdon is the only one that provides pressure and its in the dated CUP. Hodgdon: 75.5grs = 2163 fps @ 50,300 CUP (about 59,350 PSI) Hornady: 76.3grs = 2150 fps (no pressure given) Barnes: 72grs = 2183 fps (no pressure given) We assume that Hornady and Barnes pressures are NOT more than SAAMI = 62,500 PSI (53,000 CUP) My computer shows 53,000 CUP should give 2198 fps in a 24" tube from the 500gr Barnes Banded at a COL of 3.34". I think that is certainly in the ball park with the numbers above. Of course, that's with the best suitable powders. The 500gr Barnes Banded is 1.519" in length, according to Barnes and my caliper confirms that. From my CZ, with it's 25" barrel, I'm right at (consistently) 2200 fps with the 500gr Hor RN and 78grs of H335. That's at max psi and a COL of 3.34" (SAAMI) At 3.51", the MV is exactly the same, and temp stable.Extreme spread is 8 fps. I mention these points ONLY to show that Barnes reduced the charge of H335 behind their 500gr Banded, which is .189" LONGER than the 500gr Hor RN, by 4.3grs from Hornady's load behind their 500gr for an increase of only 20 fps. If we may assume that their pressure was comparable to Hornady's, then that MAY be an indicator of how much to REDUCE charges with STARTING loads when going from a "standard" cup-'n-core like Hornady to a monolithic like Barnes. Since H335 and AA2230 are similar ball powders, with H335 being the slower of those two, and if 72grs is max, according to Accurate Arms web site, then perhaps a safe place to start with the 500 Barnes Banded would be at least 5grs less = 67grs. At least, that's how I usually approach these matters unless I have hard evidence to the contrary. Just my thoughts on the matter. P.S. - I should add that based on AA web site, 72grs is only @ 53,808 PSI, so that's NOT max in pressure -- max is 62,500 -- for the Hornady, though it may be in volume. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Bob, I was waiting until someone else noticed the max pressure on the AA website as 53,808 PSI with a Hornady bullet. That is why I was not to concerned when I stepped it up just a bit in my experimentation. | |||
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Be careful, powder loads and pressure curves are not linear. Sometimes stepping up a little bit can increase pressures to above safe limits. Unless you have a pressure barrel or a piezo electric strain gauge, you are guessing in the dark. John | |||
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True... sometimes, but not the gospel all the time.  There are too many factors to judge ONLY by what a particular manual says... I love it when we are "told" NEVER to exceed max... but whose max? Then, we are told if max is OVER MAX in our rifle, to back off until it's no longer max! Then who judges that? The handloader is on his/her own in that mysterious jungle. If we're not competent to judge "max" when our max differs from book max, how are we then qualified to judge max when book max is TOO-MUCH MAX??? Sounds like my van warranty... 100,000 km, or 3 years, whichever comes first!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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. . . Thanks Jeffe : you saved me some typing !  .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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| one of us |
If Accurate says the maximum load is 72 grains, and Hornady says it's 78 grains, both with Hornady round noses, then I still say the Hornady data is wrong, and dangerous. Now if I use 72 grains with three different 450 grain bullets--Barnes mono solid, Barnes TSX, and North Fork copper with its little fins, and get the same velocity with all three, then I don't think there's any pressure difference at all. Why would there be any higher pressures with Barnes TSX (note: I didn't say Barnes X). Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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Doesn't this discussion really indicate how important a chronograph is when handloading? JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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All this information also points to the facts that have been stated over and over again...That is.. START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW... COMPONENTS VARY ENORMOUSLY AND MIXING ISN'T THE TNING TO DO...TRYING TO MAKE AN APPLE PIE OUT OF CUCUMBERS MAKES FOR A STRANGE TASTING BITE. EACH RIFLE...EACH BARREL IS UNIQUE AND DIFFERS SLIGHTLY EVEN IN THE SAME MAKE AND WHAT ONE RIFLE HANDLES WELL DOESN'T MEAN ANOTHER OF THE SAME BRAND WILL...THE SAME WITH ALL THE OTHER COMPONENTS. AND...dropping the pressure 10% only loses 5% in velocity, usually increased the accuracy 100% and makes for a longer lasting tool...and for this size bore is 50-100 fs. For those who wish to try a slightly better powder...try AA24650...it has a slightly better pressure curve. Take a look at the AA manual...all the data is listed there under 458WM. I also talked to the Ballistician at AA for a powder to use in my SMLE 2A rebarreled to 458 American at <42KPSI. He recommended the AA2460 and was right on. Cases lasted 2-3 firings more meaning the pressure was less, and the velocity was 50-70 fs higher...and were neck and neck with listed 458WM in the same manual at the lower ends. I posted some of that information on this forum I think including a picture of the rifle if anyone bothers to do a search. | |||
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| one of us |
Yes, exactly. If the Hornady loading manual lists 78 grains as giving 2200 fps, and if I get 2200 with 72 grains, then I think that 78 grains is a very risky or dangerous load. I don't think the difference in velocities/pressures is due to Hornady vs. Barnes banded solids, as noted. If that were true, there would be a difference batween Hornady soft points and Hornady solids. Anyone who thinks that 78 grains of AA2230 is safe with any 500 grain Hornady bullet is invited to try it with a chronograph and report the results here. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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Just to throw another item into the record, SPEER, No.12 shows a max load of 78grs of AA2230 for their (former) 500gr Tungsten core solid at an MV of 2239 fps from a 24" Ruger M77. That's close to Hornady's load (78.3), though that solid is shorter (due to the tungsten core)at 1.32". Many lament the loss of that fine solid. I think SPEER was the first to publish loads for the 458WM using AA2230 -- at least in the manuals that I have in my library. So, not only bullet material and hardness, as well as weight, but length of bullet, COL, chamber dimensions and bore all have an effect on ultimate pressure. But I agree that MV MAY be an indicator of PSI as well. That's why I've mentioned, several times over, that MOST 24" barrels should attain 2200 fps from 500s at safe pressure from several appropriate powders. The exception to that general rule is the 500 TSX, which because of its inordinate length makes 2200 fps a difficult goal even for the Lott (check Barnes No.4). There are variables (mentioned above)and exceptions due to load density and other components used. The greatest variable, in my view, is the handloader himself. No two will do exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Another item, and a VERY important one: Peak pressure is not the ONLY consideration! The pressure curve, spikes, stability, and extreme spread are ALL serious considerations. I would NEVER EVER accept a load with an extreme spread of 20 fps, or more, in a Big Bore! The loads by JJS, given above, show every evidence of a correct pressure curve and great stability... BUT, I would also test them at different temperatures to insure they are stable at extreme temperatures. ALL of my loads for the 458WM, as well as my 45-70s, are within 10 fps extreme spread, and that's at extreme temps. The one favorite powder for 45-70s that I've used, and at an earlier date in the 458 for 400s, was RL-7. I've discarded it because the velocity dropped off in cold temps by 60 fps. I now use H4198 for lighter bullets in the 458 and H335 in my 458 and 45-70 with heavy bullets. Both are very, very consistent in pressure, velocity and temperature stability. A fear that loads that work well and safe in North America may be too hot for Africa, has been mentioned many times on these posts. I was in West Africa in early 2000 (February)and the afternoon temps were pretty consistent at 110*. There are many places in North America (Texas, for example... I do watch the weather channel)where daytime temps can easily equal that. If we load our rifles for summer time heat in such places (here in Ont. we often have temps in the 90's during July - August), then with the best temp - resistant powders we need not fear Africa, I think, since it's well nigh impossible to overload the 458 with the best powders if we keep MV at about 2150 fps in Canada and the US with 500s in the heat of summer. And, of course, it's very easy to load 450s from 2250 to 2300 fps, and feel confident in doing so. After all, my Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Imp will shoot the 450 Swift A-Frame at 2300+ fps with a safe dose of H335! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 win. mag. AA2230, Hornady DGX and DGS UPDATED
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