I am still trying to decide on whether to build a 458.
Can somebody give me an idea of what the recoil would be like if I am looking at a reduced load. I am thinking a 300 gr bullet at about 225o fps. It will be a savage action and wood stock, kind of medium weight.
Thanks.

that load? very light recoil.. that's possible ruger #1 45/70 loading

Frank: For what it is worth, I find the recoil of a 400-grain Speer at about 2450 less comfortable than the standard 500 at 2100 in my CZ 550. A 300 at 2250 in a .458 of 10 pounds or so should be a pussycat.

Great!
Pussycat IS what I am hoping for.

And it will make a fine whitetail and hog load for the brush. I almost always hunt in the brush.
A mere ammo change will give me the option of lots more power.

I agree that load would be close to a Ruger No. 1 chambered in .45-70. But, for me that is still noticeable recoil. Depends on stock design.

I wonder if a larger case being run at modest pressures, would recoil less than a smaller case at max pressures, to get same bullet speeds.
I am just wondering, I don't know.
A 300gr bullet will still push. But I think different pressure curves will give a different felt recoil, but I couldn't predict how.

The larger case with modest pressure is more of a "push" - .416 Rigby or the Nitro Express rounds. A smaller case with max pressure is a "sharp jab". A large case at max pressure like a .378 Weatherby Magnum is a "BIG sharp jab" Felt recoil is time dependent. If recoil is speard out over time like a gas operated gun allows, it will feel less than delivered all at once in a shorter time span. Stock design goes a long way to helping how you perceive recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I wonder if a larger case being run at modest pressures, would recoil less than a smaller case at max pressures, to get same bullet speeds.
I am just wondering, I don't know.
A 300gr bullet will still push. But I think different pressure curves will give a different felt recoil, but I couldn't predict how.

Pressure and recoil are unrelated. Recoil is the product of velocity and mass, not pressure..

Gas pressure determines velocity. i.e. grains of powder used to acheive a velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Gas pressure determines velocity. i.e. grains of powder used to acheive a velocity.

No joke. But a round a 40,000 PSI shooting a 400 grain bullet 2400 PSI will kick a hell of a lot harder than a 55 grain bullet at 63,000 PSI at 4000 FPS.
Recoil is Mass and Speed NOT PRESSURE. No where in a recoil formula will you find a spot for pressure, it is irrelevant

Try this:

The 3rd Law of Physics:
"Whenever one body exerts a force on another, the second body always exerts on the first a force which is equal in measure but opposite in direction." In other words, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The rifle will have a recoil momentum equal to the bullet and powder gas momentum exiting the muzzle. Momentum equals Mass (M) times Velocity (V).

Cartridge: 9.3x62
Bullet Weight: 286 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2350 fps
Average Powder Weight: 55 grains
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

MV = MV, therefore;

Bullet Weight/7000 x Bullet Velocity + Powder Charge/7000 x Powder Gas Velocity = Rifle Weight x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Assume an initial rifle weight of 9 pounds to determine Rifle Recoil Velocity in order to calculate Kinetic Energy, therefore;

[286/7000 x 2350] + [55/7000 x 5200] = 9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

[96.01 + 40.86] /9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Rifle Recoil Velocity = 15.21 fps for a 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds. For comparison purposes, the Rifle Recoil Velocity of .30-06 weighing 8.5 pounds firing a 180 grain bullet is 12.71 fps.

Now we can calculate Kinetic Energy (KE) expressed in ft. lbs:

KE = Mass times Velocity squared / Gravitational Constant, therefore;

KE = [9 x 15.21 x 15.21] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 32.37 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds.

Gas velocity (or speed if you want to call it that) is a derivative of pressure.

No where in that formula is pressure, my point exactly, thanks.


Two indenticaly wieghted rifles firing the same amount of mass at the same velocity will have the same amount of recoil eventhough one may need more preuure to achieve the same velocity. Again pressure is not a part of recoil

Not quite. Now you introduce the time variable into the comparison by adding pressure. You'd have to understand how the formula is derived to better understand the roles of case design, primer, powder type, and bullet shape (bore friction) expressed in mass and velocity (speed as you call it) resulting in recoil and also felt recoil all based on working pressures.

Frank that should be the pussy cat you are looking for. I ran this thru LFD recoil calculator for a 9# rifle

300 horn
68.4 grs AA2015
2293 fps
9# rifle
32.6Lb/ft recoil energy. 15.3ft/sec recoil velocity
My wife weighs 105 lbs and she shoots a load that produces slightly greater recoil than that no problem, one of the twin daughters does too, but her sister won't touch the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Not quite. Now you introduce the time variable into the comparison by adding pressure. You'd have to understand how the formula is derived to better understand the roles of case design, primer, powder type, and bullet shape (bore friction) expressed in mass and velocity (speed as you call it) resulting in recoil and also felt recoil all based on working pressures.

If a 416 will shoot a 400 grain bullet 2400 FPS @ 40,000 PSI and a different 416 will shoot a 400 grain bullet 2380 FPS @ 60,000 PSI, then my money is on the faster bullet at the lower presure as having more recoil. You can go with the higher pressure round if you wish

Comparisons, generated from QuickLoad for 9 pound rifles

.458 Win Mag, 58 grs IMR4198, 300 gr Hornady, 2222 fps - recoil 29.42 fp recoil energy, 14.5 fps recoil vel

.30-06, 57 grs IMR4350, 180 gr Hornady, 2713 fps - 18.85 fp recoil energy, 11.61 fps recoil vel

Frank...if you are wondering about recoil you really need to think about something you can handle and not worry about recoil;...And you need to do some searching...this subject has been beat to death and as such the responses are so full of krap as to be nothing but pecker waving.

I have a NEF BC 45-100 and a 458 WM I built on a SMLE 2A action...I shoot up to 750 gr bullets in the 45-100 and 400-450 gr in the 458 WM. I did some research into 458 WM loads and found several that could be used in the 45KPSI pressure rated action that equal loads velocities using different powders at 60KPSI with 400 gr bullets in higher pressure rated rifles.

You can load up the 45-70 to the pressure of the rifle receiver you have...I have 300 gr 45-70 loads at 2600 fs I shoot in the 45-100 that are well within the pressure rating of my NEF...I don't shoot them much because I think it is a waste of the rifles potential...I have lots of other rifles that can shoot 300 gr bullets at 2000- 2600fs...

Unless you are going to hunt elephant with 500-600 gr loads you DON'T need a 458WM for anything in the USA...unless you just want to have a bragging tool to play with or???...the main reason I built the 458 MW was for close work with things that bite...pigs in the bush etc., more than anything else and to wave at some of my shooting buddies.

The Savage action will handle well over 60KPSI and is a very good action to use.

My advice is to spend a lot of time learning all you can about pressure, working through the various reloading manuals and reading from reputable reference materials and don't waste time on the forums...there is too much macho man mania and you will only get twisted opinions for the most part.

Besides there are many recoil calculating programs available online that will calculate the actual recoil energy and recoil velocity...not someones perceived and subjective information.

If I were to do another barrel for one of my magnum Savages I would do the 416 Ruger...I already built a 416 Taylor so don't need the Ruger, but it would be a better fit for almost all the worlds large game and a much better fit for the USA.

My last though is why build a 458 WM and use reduced loads??? You need to practice with the loads you will use in hunting...for many reasons not the least of which is not being intimidated by the knowedge what you are about to touch off something that is way above what you have been practicing with...I guarantee you will shut your eyes tight and jerk the trigger in anticipation of the recoil you are about to receive.

In any event, on and offline reference materials abound to help answer your questions in a much safer and useful manor, objectively and without opinion.

Enjoy your toys.

Could you not accomplish the same thing by getting a 450 Marlin?

sorry to have lead this to the ditch..

300gr at 2250 can be done with the 45/70 -- which, OF COURSE, means you could it with a 450 marlin, interally they are the same case.

Brass shoud last forever in a 458 at those levels, though I think you'll change to the 350 RN after you see how soft more 300s are at that speed

Frank, for what it's worth, that load should not be as bad as a heavy 12 gauge load. I always thought 3"shells with a max loading in a pump shot gun was far worse than a 458 with a normal loading.

I shot my friends 458 Win with max loads and it kicked the ***** out of me. My lott doesn't compair with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Gas pressure determines velocity. i.e. grains of powder used to acheive a velocity.

True so far as it goes. What that ignores is the initial rate of velocity change. "Acceleration" throws a curve into the basic calculation.

A higher chamber pressure, corresponding to an intial higher rate of acceleration, DOES change the perception of recoil more than a simple figure based on the projectiles final Muzzle Velocity.

Many reduced loads requre a faster than normal burn rate powder to obtain good accuracy. Powders require the pressure to be in the "normal" range to burn consistancy so it's harder to get reduced rounds to shoot well than many people realise. A proper light charge of a fast powder can still produce a high initial acceleration so recoil reduction tends to be a little less than a normal calculation suggests. But, the initial impulse is brief so lower speed is still a reduction in kick!

I do not know how I might enter into this discussion only to say that at the same velocity ; 2400 FPS; 400 gr ; 416 caliber; I have fired a Rigby along side a Remington and the Remington cartridge is a more pleasant rifle to shoot and it operates at a higher pressure. Weights being about the same.

Almost true WestCoaster...the 450 M is basically a 458 American which are both 2" long cases...both are excellent propositions for many hunting applications...

I tried the 450 M, WSM and RUM cases, 444, 45-90, 45-100, 30-06, 308, 284, 416 Rigby and some aluminum slugs I turned to different large caliber case dimensions, all at various lengths trying to obtain the optimum COAL and velocity for several differnt bullet shapes and weight for the mag length of ~3.00".

I can fire 45-70, 45-90 AND 458 WM rounds, mixed, from the rifle mag, at COAL of 3.00" but the main problem is feeding as it has always been in any SMLE converted to use the 45-?? rimmed case. The 458 WM, 444 M, 450M or WSM cases feed much better. The WSM/RUM are just too fat to double stack without spreading the mag and not fat enough to single stack without many magazine mods...the Rigby case was perfect for single stacking and fed great but the cost of the dies and brass put that way out of range for my purposes...the dies cost more than the OEM rifle.

I still have the 416 R case project in the back of my mind for when I hit the Lotto......although the SMLE platform is a very strong action it is still rough as a cob in it's military form, so I would have to have one CNC made out of modern steels and smoothed up considerably

It is/was a fun project to do and the rifle handles and shoots just fine.

I don't consider it light at 9.7 lbs loaded with 5 rounds of 400 gr bullet weight and 24" bbl with MB and it does produce a fair amount of recoil even at those specification, roughly 30 ftlbs at about 15 fs velocity...but what do you expect from a 45 cal/400 gr cartridge at roughly 2250 fs...???...

Again, if you have to ask the price, you probably shouldn't be in the restaurant.

And again, Frank...if you want a 458 WM...for ANY reason...go ahead an build it and shoot whateven bullet weight you want...it will do a good job for you no matter what bullet weight you use.

The Speer 300 gr is rated for a higher velocity, something like 2500 fs max, than the Hornady's 300 at 2100 fs max...I think a 400-450 gr bullet is ideal for this caliber, but the Hornady 350 gr RN is a very good compromise and will take almost any game you choose except for dangerous game, then I would use the 400-450 gr solid or hard cast lead for the better penetration qualities.

Varmint Al has a very good recoil calculator at
http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm#Calculate_Recoil, or go to Varmint Al's site, Varmint Al.com under Shooting Page and Java Recoil calculator.

Again...we are not talking heart surgery here, just rocket science...all the hair splitting is nothing more than P-waving...it may be [absolutely] true in the theoretical world but it doesn't mean squat doodly for the most part in the real world because there are just too many variable that keep getting added in that change the basic premise...Aristotle is turning in his grave hearing all the arguments without first defining the terms and agreeing on the "truth" of the statements. hahahaha

Enjoy Your toys.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I am still trying to decide on whether to build a 458.
Can somebody give me an idea of what the recoil would be like if I am looking at a reduced load. I am thinking a 300 gr bullet at about 225o fps. It will be a savage action and wood stock, kind of medium weight.
Thanks.

You would be astounded at how little the recoil feels with good ear muffs and ear plugs. I would advise doing so til your accustomed to the reaction push from your 458. Don't even think of it as recoil. It's mind over matter, if you don't mind it don't matter. Recoil is what you perceive. Less heard less felt.

Acceleration is the 1st derivative of velocity. A function of pressure.

Arrrwwwwghummmmaahhhh...sigh...(expire) Another beautiful simplicity dies....killed by an ugly fact....when will it ever end...

Hahahahahaha

Ehjoy

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Miller:
Frank, for what it's worth, that load should not be as bad as a heavy 12 gauge load. I always thought 3"shells with a max loading in a pump shot gun was far worse than a 458 with a normal loading.

That's actually pretty useful. I freakin hate 3 in mag slugs in my 870.

quote:

Originally posted by WestCoaster:
Could you not accomplish the same thing by getting a 450 Marlin?

Sure. At least, I would think so.
But with the .458 Win mag I can also go up in velocity if I choose. Lots of flexability.

I found the .458 win pretty mild, even in my Ruger #1. So mild in fact that I had it rechambered to .460 Weatherby. That was a mistake. Too much recoil to be much fun; at least for the ground squirrel shooting I was doing with it. You should find the standard .458 satisfactory as is.

You got that right...about the 12 ga recoil... My 1050-1100gr 12GAFH slug loads in my Mossy 500 and Rem 870 run 80-120 ftlb recoil with LIGHT loads and definitely take it out of the "It's fun" range...and those loads are nothing compared to those banging away with the heavier NEF's...I'm way to wussy to try those that reach into the 150 plus ftlbs recoil range.

I build shooters to mostly enjoy now...I am fairly inured to recoil having shot a ton of lead through many, but heavy recoil beyond my comfort zone ISN'T ENJOYABLE, even under hunting conditions and definitely during load developement off the bench and for the most part isn't needed...a well placed shot, with a heavy bullet at modest velocity will kill even the toughest critter on the planet...without a great amount of recoil, as long as the rifle is well designed and recoil mitigated.

The 458 WM...as with ANY shooter can be loaded up or down and if you only have one rifle then I don't see any reason not to use the full range of potentiality...I did lots of that early on and I have to download anything over 400 gr in the SMLE action slightly, to work safely...but my ideas have changed, re-arrainged and hardened somewhat over the years, to fit me and what experiences I've had, so I'm speaking from that point of view...I know those ideas don't fit in totally across the board.

There are many ways to mitigate recoil and we should be speaking of a "system"...not just one individual's findings or individual rifles, which is usually the case when this "recoil argument" arises.

Going from a relatively light R#1 in 458WM with a case capacity of 90-95 gr H20 to a 460 W with a case capacity of 140 g H20, rougly 32% greater, is definitely a large step, but you can still down load to well below 458 WM, 458 Lott levels or anywhere in between and work up slowly until you can handle the full 460 W loads. Costs you more powder to equal a 458 WM and that alone will increase the recoil slighly because of the extra powder weight.

You know the old saying...Gas, Grass or AZZ...no one rides for free.

Enjoy your toys.

quote:

Originally posted by olcrip:

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I am still trying to decide on whether to build a 458.
Can somebody give me an idea of what the recoil would be like if I am looking at a reduced load. I am thinking a 300 gr bullet at about 225o fps. It will be a savage action and wood stock, kind of medium weight.
Thanks.

You would be astounded at how little the recoil feels with good ear muffs and ear plugs. I would advise doing so til your accustomed to the reaction push from your 458. Don't even think of it as recoil. It's mind over matter, if you don't mind it don't matter. Recoil is what you perceive. Less heard less felt.

Ol Crip makes a good point, physics aside, muzzle blast has a lot to do with perceived recoil.

This is a good point. I discovered a while back, while working with my 10mm pistol that I am blast sensitive. Recoil doesn't bother me much, but blase will make me flinch.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I am still trying to decide on whether to build a 458.
Can somebody give me an idea of what the recoil would be like if I am looking at a reduced load. I am thinking a 300 gr bullet at about 225o fps. It will be a savage action and wood stock, kind of medium weight.
Thanks.

Hello frank4570,

I know little or nothing about your Savage action however, I applaud you in your choice of cartridge during these dark days of "Velocity Madness" which is sadly sweeping our culture at the moment.

The following might help with recoil. These are not my own ideas but ones that I have borrowed (ripped off) from other people.

Have your rifle built with a heavy-ish barrel instead of today's more trendy light profile/contour. That way it will not be so likely to flip upward and drive the stock into your cheek bone.

(I know you want a "medium weight" sporter but whatever weight you have in it might serve your needs better if it is up front, instead of in the middle for this purpose).

Shape your stock to have a rather wide recoil pad surface.

Make doubly sure your length off pull and stock dimensions in general are just right for your stature, arm length and over all build.

Use a thick (1 inch or more) gel type recoil pad. I like "Decelerator" but there are other good ones as well.

Try placing the butt just a little more on the chest muscle than totally into the traditional "pocket" of your shoulder area.

IF you scope it, consider a low power fixed scope like a "shotgun scope" or the old Lpld 3x rifle scope if one can be found on ebay or wherever. These tend to have longer eye relief and therefore are less likely to cut your face in recoil.

When my eyes were young, I had peep sights on most of my rifles, from big game through rimfire. The .458 cartridge seems to be gagging for a propper receiver peep and "sour dough" blade front sight. You'd really have to work at it to whack your face with iron sights.

Last but not least, if it still kicks too much, load it down and train with it ALOT until you feel comfortable. Then turn up the recoil flame a little at a time and so on it goes until you become accustomed to the recoil generated by the load data you wish to reach.

I agree with others here that blast increases perceived recoil. Furthermore, from my personal experiences, it seems to me that my pectoral muscles (what's left of them at my age) always heal up in a few days but my hearing is not so self repairing.

For this reason, at the risk of getting lynched right here before I can even finish typing this, I do not have a muzzle brake on any of my rifles. They are just not my cup of tea and I have some decent kickers in my toy box. Nothing against those who dig brakes, porting and etc, so don't anyone blow a gasket about it. They are just not my thing.

Best of luck with your project. My guess is that it should likely flatten the deer critters without ruining much edible meat.

Best Regards,
Ard

I will agree with Ard...all his points are valid...but I like the Limbsaver pads over the Decelerators tho'...I replaced the Decelerators with Limbsavers after trying the first Limbsaver.

I have a 375 H&H on a Savage action and also had a 458 WM and 416 Taylor A&B swap barrels for the mag action...I worked up some very accurate loads for all three barrels, took an elk with each of the calibers but finally the stock broke from the heaby recoil of some fairly stiff 458 WM 500 gr loads...I decided to rethread the 416 Taylor barrel and put it on an old Ruger Tang LA frame and two years ago I put the 458 WM barrel on the SMLE action. I fixed the Savage stock, put the 375 H&H barrel back in it and painted it camo.

Having a stock that fits with just enough drop to get you eye level with whatever sights you want goes a very long way in keeping the recoil moving straight back rather than downward...that is keeping the bore centerline as parallel with the sight line as possible...and the least amount drop. If you use a scope your eye/cheek is at least 3/4" higher than with open sights...also a flat wide cheek piece sloped away from the stock centerline will direct the stock and recoil away from the cheek rather than right against it as most stocks do.

All of my big bores have a 2.5 to 3.5 contoured barrels depending on the caliber, which makes the rifle slightly muzzle heavy and really does help with muzzle flip...I also use brakes AND ear protection...but the MB does actually increase the amount of air that hits the face...it will surprise you the first time even if you are expecting it, but it isn't much...reminds me of someone sneezing in your face and the puff shouldn't bother you after some practice...an you need to practice with several levels of loads if you want to get well acquainted with the recoil...just like politicians and the flu... no one ever gets "over" recoil...just becomes tolerant of the pain...

MB's have certain problems associated with their use...all are minimal as far as I'm concerned and are simple and easy to solve...but no argument as far as what a person decides is best for them...your choice and I won't try to talk you into or out of using one...just my experiences again with examples...

I have a 15" bbl 7-08 XP-100 that will almost jump out of my hand, not a lot of recoil just very quick and I have to be cognizant of the direction of recoil, back - up - and over due to the recoil WITHOUT the brake...with the brake it just rolls over on the left bipod leg and lifts the right leg 1" - 2" depending on the bullet weight...It isn't very pleasant to shoot without the brake, but gets forgotten when concentrating on zapping a sage rat at 2-300 yds...I've also shot XP-100's in 248 W,30-30, 300 Sav, 308 w, most of the IHMSA cartridges...and a host of other pistols, rifle and shotguns, with and without brakes...I will take the braked ones over the others any day.

My 10# 458 WM has a brake but not my 13# NEF 45-100...the 458 is about like my 338-06 with a 225gr bullet...the 45-100 shooting a 45-70 loaded to the same parameters as the 458 WM gives half again as much slap (I can fire both the 458WM and the 45-70 rounds in the SMLE with the same recoil level).

One other thing to consider...you have a much faster recovery time for a second or third shot with a brake than without...I will put up with some noise knowing I can get back on target twice as fast using the brake than without...I think my hide is worth the trade off...especially when Mr. Mean'n'Nasty decides I look like a tasty tidbit or is just plain pizzed off at the world and I'm standing in it.

I'm certainly not a "cowboy" and don't consider myself any kind of rider, but I learned how to ride, work cattle, stay in the saddle all day and even to enjoy some parts of dealing with those wily beasts...I used every kind of saddle-sore reducing device I could find and got laughed at all the time...didn't matter to me...I could get off that nasty, stumbling, sway backed, cow hocked, neck bowed, piece of crow bait after a days work and still walk straight while many of the real cowboys were all humped over and looking for the liniment...same with recoil...you use what mitigation that fits you and get used to the rest.

Enjoy your toys.

A longer stock will produce less felt recoil than a shorter stock, within reason.

The 458wm recoil isn't too much in a ~10lb rifle, but if you're not used to it it is best to work up to it by loading down and progressing, as others have pointed out.

Frquency of shooting is more important than the number of rounds expended in one episode.

If I lay off for more than three months or so I need to rebuild my tollerance for full power loads, which I do by shooting plenty of light rounds and a few full power loads in the first session, and then increasing the number of full power loads and decreasing the light loads over about a month of at least once a week shooting. Bu the end of six weeks or so, their is no issue with the full house loads. Full power load for me is 500grs at 2145fps muzzle velocity, which is plenty for anything and has worked just fine for elephants (with solids.)

Try not to shoot from a bench, except for sight in and load development. The bench excaserbates felt recoil. A standing bench is a good alternative to a sitting bench if one is available, but off hand or off sticks African style is good from the recoil perspective.

If you are accustomed to the recoil and have a game animal in your sights, there is essentially no recovery time shooting full power loads from a 458wm, very little muzzle rise or rocking in recoil absorbtion. In fact, recoil is just sufficient to let you know the rifle has fired and the noise likewise. Nothing like the concentration that real game gives you to minimize felt recoil.

Lighter loads for deer utilizing 350gr bullets will be even less of an issue, on the range and in the field. I like the 350gr Hornadays for fun shooting.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I agree that load would be close to a Ruger No. 1 chambered in .45-70. But, for me that is still noticeable recoil. Depends on stock design.

Some of you guys need to beef up on what the Ruger No.1 can do with that 300gr! You are a way off your mark on that one... I don't know if you've ever seriously used one, but it would appear not! 2250fps from a 300-grainer??? The 1895 Marlin will do that and not even break a sweat! CHECK HODGDON'S MANUAL (NOT THEIR BOOKLET!)FOR THE RUGER LOADED WITH A 300gr SIERRA... and then tell us what you know about the Ruger handling 300-grainers at 2250 fps!(30,000 cup)

And yes, Frank,

Go with the 458WM. I have 45-70s and a CZ 550 in 458WM and they are all extremely versatile. That's basically all I shoot and hunt with these days - after a half-century of doing so.

And when you've practiced enough, go get some 300 or 350 TSXs and shoot something BIG! Those 2 bullets can turn a 458WM (or Ruger No.1 in 45-70)into a flat-shooting cannon... and never look back!

I'm having a hard time finding data for a fast 300gr from a .358 win mag.
Could you just tell me, what are the numbers for the flat shooting cannon load?
Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
And yes, Frank,

Go with the 458WM. I have 45-70s and a CZ 550 in 458WM and they are all extremely versatile. That's basically all I shoot and hunt with these days - after a half-century of doing so.

And when you've practiced enough, go get some 300 or 350 TSXs and shoot something BIG! Those 2 bullets can turn a 458WM (or Ruger No.1 in 45-70)into a flat-shooting cannon... and never look back!

What's hard??? Just about every reloading manual I have has several loads listed...you can go online to Hodgdons and get data or run a search online and come up with umpteem million pages to sift through...

I don't list my reloads online anymore...don't know the level of "expertize or lack thereof" of the user.

I used a load listed in the Hodgdon 2006 manual for a 300 gr bullet in the 45-70 case for the R#1 in my 32" NEF BC and hit 2600fs without a sweat and without exceeding the listed loads powder weight...got lots of flak from folks that didn't quite understand all they didn't know about pressure, receivers and reloading...I use the 300 gr bullets to hunt light game now and then but don't push the velocity more than about 22-2300 fs as the bullet just destroys too much edible meat coming out. I like to eat right up to the hole if possible so I use mostly 400 gr plus slugs in the 45 cals .

The 458 WM has about the same case volume as a 45-90 - ~94 gr H2O - and has a higher SAAMI pressure range than the 45-70 or 45-90.

I don't know your level of "expertize or lack thereof" but will suggest you surf some of the different long range, benchrest, precision reloading sights...all that I have visited have many very good directions on how to work up loads...doesn't matter what size the bullet is, fundamentally, just how careful you are and how to identify pressure signs before they get on the wrong end of the stick. You can also find tons of information in many books...Brownells has a very good assortment that covers all aspects of this sport.

I can't figure out why someone would build a big bore gun and use light bullets in it...for anything...not even practice or squirrels, for the most part...I go along with Elmer Keith on that, but I also like high velo and light bullets for varmints so I push those small calibers as far as possible....Starting about 30 cal I use the bullet weight that shoots the best in that particular rifle...usually something in the middle of the weight range...and keep the velo up as high as possible commensurate with < 3/4" accuracy...my limit for a hunting shooter.

If you do a systematic research of bullet weights vs BC you will find, in most but not all cases, that the heaviest bullet - not including round nosed slugs- will have the highest BC and also the highest SD...and the maximum velocities are not very far below that of the ligher bullets...but the higher BC bullet will catchup and pass the velocity of the ligher bullet somewhere past 200 yds, there will also not be enough difference in drop as to matter on large game, but the energy at the target will be much higher so your "instant kill" ratio will be higher.

Anyway...there are as many opinions as shooters in this sport and ten times as many reasons for doing what we all do.

Enjoy your toy.