frank4570, In comparison to some here, I am a puss when it comes to recoil.

Maybe someone has already mentioned it, but I suggest you look at Trailboss loads. I can shoot these reduced recoil loads all day long in my 45-70 and 458WM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by frank4570:
I'm having a hard time finding data for a fast 300gr from a .358 win mag.
Could you just tell me, what are the numbers for the flat shooting cannon load?
Thanks.

Frank; there's a lot of good stuff in what FOOBAR said, so I'll not repeat that. And I'll not give loads over the internet either. But I'll wet your appetite by saying this:

My personal rifle in .458WM is a CZ 550 with a 25" barrel and a full magnum-length action. Because of the long leade and freebore of my gun, long bullets (such as the monolithic TSX's) and heavy-for-caliber bullets (like 500gr to 600gr)and monolithic solids (like Barnes Banded) can be seated to match the 458 Lott. That means that in effect I have as much powder space as the Lott, and slightly more "freebore". There are a lot of "naysayers" who deny this, as FOOBAR points out, but these are FACTS that I've carefully researched. As a result MY 458WM is equivalent to a Lott. My primary load for North America, for any big game, is a 350TSX at 2700 fps +! Also, the BC of that bullet is much better than Barnes declares, from my testing, and they haven't denied my claims. +2" at 100/ 0.0" at 200/ -8.5" at 300yds. A "regular" 24" barrelled 458WM should send that bullet on it's way between 2500 to 2600 fps. In other words, as fast as a .308 Win fires a 180gr!

I've just ordered a box of 300gr TSX's for both my Ruger No.1 45-70 Imp. and the CZ. I'm expecting the Ruger to shoot them at 2600 fps and the CZ at 2800 fps+.

Now, before someone gets too manic, let me say I'm a careful handloader and work up loads for MY GUNS! Both rifles mentioned are NOT NORMAL!
One is a semi-custom and the other is bone stock, but has an unusually long action for the cartridge (Not the same as your Savage!)And, I write and publish my findings.

But, I get very annoyed when some people think they have the answer for everything because they read it on the Internet, or in a book or magazine, so now they become the authority, when they obviously don't have a clue of what they're pontificating on!

I recommend three manuals on the 458WM: 1)Hodgdon; 2)Hornady; and 3) Barnes.

Take care Frank, and enjoy your project!

www.bigbores.ca

Frank;

Here are a couple loads from Hodgdon for the 300gr XFB (forerunner of the TSX):

24" barrel .458 Win Mag:

Start load using H322 = 2633 fps
Max load " " = 2753 fps

Start load using H4198 = 2669 fps
Max load " " = 2784 fps

NOTE: I didn't give the actual charge (unwise)nor the CUP (pressure), but this will serve as a guide when I start to load the 300gr TSX's. It also shows the potential of that bullet in a "normal" 458WM.

Cheers.

www.bigbores.ca

I wasn't looking for your handload data, but rather what velocity you get with what bullet. Then I can use the B.C.to calculate the bullet drop and determine the point blank range, and figure the holdovers and target impact speed at the various ranges.
I think dialing come-ups with this rifle would be really unlikely.
I would hope the 300 or 350gr would make a 200yd load.
I'll look around again. Thanks.

I can't get the chart to post properly, but at 2600fps and zeroed at 125yds gives 4.9in drop at 200 and a vel of 1786fps. 250yds is -11.4 and vel of 1609fps. So this load would work fine, and give me some room to try some other things like 350gr bullets.
All this is assuming I can manage the recoil.
The rifle I am going to use for this project came in today, so I will get started soon.
Thanks for the help.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I wasn't looking for your handload data, but rather what velocity you get with what bullet. Then I can use the B.C.to calculate the bullet drop and determine the point blank range, and figure the holdovers and target impact speed at the various ranges.
I think dialing come-ups with this rifle would be really unlikely.
I would hope the 300 or 350gr would make a 200yd load.
I'll look around again. Thanks.

My comments were not aimed in your direction, but to fend off the naysayers. I fully understand you want to start with mild loads and go from there. But, you also suggested you would like to have an idea of the 458's potential as a flat-shooting rifle... Right?

That's why I gave Hodgdon's results. 2800 fps from a tough 300gr, or 350gr at 2600fps gives the 458WM versatility that very few have even thought about, let alone experienced, because all the literature on the 458WM to date has talked about and emphasized 450 and 500gr bullets for buffalo and elephant. My point is a simple one: It can be used to 400yds, and beyond on N.A. game, if wanted.

If you want to use it as a plinker or mild 45-70, that's fine too. It's not really a question of either/or, but both/and. Just thought you were interested in that. According to Barnes, the BC of their 300gr TSX = .230, and their 350gr = .271. For others check their manuals.

www.bigbores.ca

.458 Winchester Magnum recoil is significant in any guise.

A few more thoughts...

I'm doing MB's on two shotgun barrels so have run most of the numbers already...the bore area of a .458 cal is 0.165 sq in...the Harralls Precision brake on my 458 WM has 56 - 0.1875" holes with an area of ~1.545 sq in, which gives a ratio of 9.36X.

Running the Varmint Al's recoil program for my ~9.7# rifle with a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fs comes out ~ 42 ftlbsR without the brake and ~20 ftlbsR with the brake using a 100% efficiency and 80 gr of powder...I've run the Recoil program many times and the "without MB" always agrees closely with two other recoil programs I use...the "with MB" sometimes gives spurious numbers espsecially if I use a ratio of the bore to the MB to try to come up with the percent and it is well over 100%.

In any event shooting with and without is night and day...if you can shoot 180 gr bullet at 300 WM velocities you can shoot the 300 gr 458 WM at near the same velocities with a MB.

Barnes must have revised their BC downward quite a bit...my #3 manual lists the 300 XFB at .340 and the 350 XFB at .402. I think I would step up to the 400 gr bullets to get the higher BC..

In any event a 300 grain bullet at 25-2800 fs is still moving right along...at that velocity and that weight it doesn't matter if it is a 375 cal or a 458 cal...if the bullet BC's are close, the drop will be close (not splitting hairs here) and the impact energy is relatively equal...If you know the drops and measure the distance accurately, have a rifle that will do 1 MOA and you can hold that, you should be able to put your rounds into a 3" circle at 300 yds, 4" at 400 yds...etc...providing you cross hairs aren't clubs and you don't have any parallax problems. I'm not the shooter I used to be, but still I hit sage rats out to about 600 yds about 50% first shot hits and near 100% if the rat is wondering where the noise is coming from...with any of my varminters which are basically benchrest rifles and can keep most shots from almost all of my other rifle inside a soft ball at those ranges. Most of the younger ones I hunt with can shoot circles around me...any day...I keep my shots withing 250-300 yds and leave the longer ones to them...besides they don't mind the hump to and from with the load, while my legs and back are done for. Staying in camp and getting my animal always twists their tails...

Enjoy your toys.

FOOBAR;

Just a comment or 2 on Barnes BC's for the 300 and 350TSX. They have downgraded quite a bit in their manual #4. And they no longer produce the 400-X.

I complained vociferously on both accounts... but to no avail. Basically, it came down to economics re the 400 - not selling (enough) Apparently, buyers go for either the lighter weights or the real heavy weights. The 400-x was one of my all-time favorites.

Re the BCs: I don't know yet about the 300 TSX as I'm waiting for a box (one box at a time until I know how they work)to test, come spring. But the 350 TSX has a BC closer to the original 350-X (.402)than their published .271 BC. That's based on my extensive testing. So, anything from .385 to .400 BC comes very close to my results knowing MV and trajectory out to 300yds. I didn't chronograph speed at 300 yds as I didn't want to destroy another Chrony!

Anyway, at an MV of 2710 fps (ES= 20 fps) traj.= +1.9"@ 100yds; 0.0"@ 200 yds; -8.5"@ 300 yds.

I took that load moose hunting in N. Ontario in October but no luck. Anyway, I was confident that I could use that load to 400 yds on moose with a hold on the hairline of the hump. That rifle, with it's weight, is very steady from the offhand position. Recoil of that load is about 50 ft-lbs which is quite mild for me because I'm used to shooting 45-70s with heavy loads for many years.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eprod...ct?saleitemid=342378

Any thoughts on this bullet?
I am thinking of running it at about 2250fps for starters. I really don't know what it's upper limit is. If I can get it to shoot accurately, it should make a fine whitetail load for local hunting. I figure I should get used to the mild loads before I start playing with heavy stuff.

frank4570;

It has a good reputation from a 45-70, as does the 300gr Speer. Winchester loads the Nosler in the Supreme line for the 45-70.

However, unlike the 300TSX, they are short-for-caliber bullets and may not be accurate in a 458WM with its very long leade and freebore. I had that problem with my former Ruger 77 in 458. It was inaccurate, even with the 350gr Speer, which was made for the 458. With the 500gr Hornady it was superbly accurate... 1-hole groups when I did my part.

Personally, I'd go for the 300gr TSX, which is a longer bullet, seat it to the bottom cannelure, and crimp. This will put the ogive closer to the rifling, tending to make things more accurate.

Another option is the 405gr Remington. It's a longer bullet, has more mass, tends to be very accurate if you crimp into the bottom cannelure.
It's also a tougher bullet than the 350 Hornady and the 400gr Speer. I've shot a bear with one and it's DRT. MV was 2100 fps. Distance 90yds. 3/4" entrance and exit wounds. I've also tested it against the 400 Speer and the 350 Hornady in a vise. The only one that survived that test was the Remington. The other two were pancaked and the Remington was barely dented! I don't know where the stories come from about it being too soft. Try it at about 1800 fps, it should be accurate and it'll kill anything in N.A.

The 400gr bullet is going to generate more recoil at the same velocity, and put a lower ceiling on the top velocity.
Since I am going to be putting this rifle together myself, with help from a 'smith, could I choose to shorten up the throat so the bullet doesn't have to make such a jump?

Thanks for the info 458 Only...Barnes discontinued my favorite varmint bullet, 40 gr coated HP several years ago also...it was the only bullet that shot accurate at very high velocity in a Ruger 223 Rem...their 45 Varminators never did much good and I ended up pulling the barrel and installing a 17 Rem barrel instead.

I also wonder sometimes where information comes from...If I have a question about a bullets structural integrity I usually section one or give it the "sandbox test"...I have a 4' cube of sand that I plug at 25 yds...if the bullet survives that test without turning into blue dust or turning inside out I figure they will handle game fairly well. It's even pretty rough on the Barnes bullets.

The Nosler PP is a very good bullet as are all Nosler partition bullets. The bullet is 0.820" long according to my software... checking the Nosler manual and futzing the numbers gives a cannelure at roughly 0.445" from the base...0.375" from the nose end. It was one of the bullets I had on my list to try in the SMLE but haven't gotten around to doing it yet...(I found a nice hard cast lead bullet of 430 gr that runs along at ~2265 fs/42KCUP which is just right for the SMLE action)...It should work well at a crimped COAL of roughly 2.85", but will have some jump. I could use a Lott case to stretch the COAL and go with a slower burning powder just for kicks, but the Lott cases are champaigne and caviar and I'm definitely beer and pizza.

When you get started you might give AA2460 powder a try...it ended up being the powder with the best accuracy and highest velocity in both my 45-100 and 458 WM cases...it isn't normally listed in very many load manuals but you can go to the Accurate Arms site or AA #2 manual to get the pressure data and compare it to the rest. It falls between BLC-2 and W748 on the burn rate charts...it is a ball powder so it doesn't take kindly to being ham-fisted at the upper end of the pressure range, but I got over 100 fs more than any other powder without stickyness or overly flat primers and at a minimum of 5 reloads per case which is pretty good for belted mag cases. I was careful with the headspace and got a nice firm 0.004" HS while still being able to shoot 45-XXX rimmed cases.

One other bit...I tend to keep my chambers at SAAMI spec...nothing shorter and not too much longer...BUT...I have several rifles with long throats cut specifically for specific paramerers...specifically because I wanted to use a long, heavy for caliber bullet to get the highest BC and with the bullet seated just to the bottom of the neck for the largest case volume I could get. I found I could shoot shorter bullets just as accurate "long throated" but had to sometimes work through several brands and powders to find the right combination. I think the accuracy of a load has to do with more than throat length...no matter what you do with the throat you still have to "tune" the load to the rifle.

My 338-06 was cut to use the old Speer 270 gr bullet for Elk...they discontinued that one and I ended up with the Hornady 225 with a very stiff load of IMR 4320 shooting a 5 shot bug hole...if you could call a 0.500" hole a bug hole...and also the 200 gr Hornady's also but with Varget only. The jump with the 225 was 0.650"...more that some Weatherby's. I've tried ALL the Nosler 338 bullets, most of the other major brand 338 cal bullets and some custom made 250-275 gr bullets and nothing but the Horn 225 will shoot less than 1 3/4 - 2"...this rifle with a 26" Douglas Premium barrel gives 2750 fs with the 4320 and Horn 225 which is a bit more than most manuals list, the cases last 10 firings...my limit...show no pressure signs, ejects easy, and is fun to shoot...I take a few squirrels every year just to keep my eye atuned to the scope and drop.

I would rather have a longer throat so I have the choice of seating out long, using a longer buller and have the largest case volume available for powder...you'd be surprised how much extra velocity you can get by a slighly longer barrel, a little larger case volume and seating out to the max length of your magazine.

Just something to think about.

Luck on your project.

Wow. Luck.
Brownells makes a kit for the savage action and the 458 round. I get the already chambered barrel,guages,and barrel wrench. Just screw on the new barrel and set it. I'll probably have to open the barrel channel a little.
This will go pretty fast.

Frank,

I have a .458 Lott and a .450 Dakota, all of the over .40s in my experience when using bullets of useful SD at proper velocities produce significant recoil. Perhaps you could find someone with a .458 that you could try before you build one. Personally, I wouldn't build one to shoot light bullets but to each his own.

Cheers,
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
The 400gr bullet is going to generate more recoil at the same velocity, and put a lower ceiling on the top velocity.
Since I am going to be putting this rifle together myself, with help from a 'smith, could I choose to shorten up the throat so the bullet doesn't have to make such a jump?

My current CZ has a true magnum-length action AND a long throat, which means I can seat any bullet as long as practical. And I do. That gives more powder space as mentioned.

Getting back to short bullets: the only way you will know for sure is try them. I think I'd give the Speer 300gr a try first to see if it works. They are much cheaper than the Nosler. Also for practice, if you find a load that works. Then use the Nosler for hunting once you've made slight adjustments for the Nosler.

I wanted to use the 350 Speer out of my Ruger 77 for bear at around 2300 to 2400 fps, and I finally got a load that worked well enough... 1.5" to 2". I shot a bear with it. But the rifle was sooo accurate with the 500 Hornadys that I had difficulty reconciling myself to mediocre accuracy. John Kronfeld (author and DG hunter) was a big help to me and explained that the poor accuracy was due to the very long leade.

My current rifle shoots the 350 Hornady at 2100 at MOA. If I push it faster or slower the groups open up.

The 405 Rem at 1800 should not be much more of a "thump" to the shoulder than a 300 at 2250. A bit more maybe, but not that much.

Anyway, enjoy your project and be sure to keep us in the loop as to progress.

Frank.........

For what my limited .458 experience is worth here......

I ran about 15 or 20 assorted .458 rounds through a Ruger 77 Mark I in a very short period of time off a sit-down bench one afternoon. This was at the end of an extended bench session with about every belted magnum you could name from .416 down. So I was not particularly "fresh" let's say. The gun was open sighted and wore a red rubber factory pad. I was shooting 300, 400 and 500 gr. loads...all pretty well loaded up IIRC. I was quite pleasantly unsurprised. I figured the gun would belt the hell out of me. Nope. That's how I ended up running darned near a box through the rifle. It was pretty darned enjoyable. As with any hard hitter.....you're going to have a bit of a learning curve involved with getting to know the gun. Don't let the first 3 or 4 or 5 rounds form your opinion. Rounds 6, 7 and 8 will flow a lot better.

FOOBAR;

You've given some sound information and advice.

I have some AA2460 in my cabinet and intend to give it a try come spring. I came across information on that powder just this past week that suggests it would work very well in my 458 with heavyweights. Your input strengthens that impression.

I also have several boxes of 465gr hardcast, which I used in my 45-70s at about 1900 fps, and in my CZ at 2260 fps. They definitely make an impression.

I intend to try that 465 in my Ruger No.1 45-70 Imp. come spring as well. I shot a nice bear with it from my (then)NEF at 1900 fps. Mr. Blackie was flattened on the spot at 70 yds from my treestand. The NEF got invested in my CZ! I have a pile of 458WM brass so have nil intention of scrapping some metal out of the barrel so Lott brass can be chambered, as my 458 can be loaded like a Lott if wanted anyway. But, since an African trip is not in the cards, I'm happy to have a flat-shooting cannon for big-nasties in N.A.