.416 JRS ( John R. Sundra)

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).

20 April 2008, 22:23

gumboot458

Dave ; I would sure like it in the Alaskan format but with an under barrel lug added on ..The African version could be bigger gun .

But a 40 cal. 350 gr monometal bullet or lighter @ 2450-2550 would be a pretty good cure all for what ails anything ...They could call it the 411 Alaskan Back Up .

But they would need to put a different stock on it .

...The black plastic stock would be great If they would put a pad the thickness and softness of the Houge pad on it ...And send it out with different height front sights ........

21 April 2008, 01:45

Dave Bush

Gumboot:

I think the biggest thing holding back a .416 Ruger is that it just doesn't make much sense. The purpose of squeezing it to a 30-06 length action is to make for a lighter, handier rifle. When you start tossing 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps, a 7-8 pound gun is a bad idea. The Hawkeye is really not a good platform for a .416.

Dave

21 April 2008, 05:28

Idaho Sharpshooter

+1 with Dave.

But, the infamous B-U-T; how much sense does the 338 Federal make?

I look for it with a 350gr SP and Solid @2450fps.
The Uber Unit for anything but the Big Four.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

21 April 2008, 06:20

jeffeosso

I mean this post to be in good humor, and merely contesting this weight issue, not picking a fight

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
The purpose of squeezing it to a 30-06 length action.
Dave

Okay, I'll, in good humor, throw the bsflag

the model 70, in 416 rem or 458 lott, is a LIGHTENED 30-06 action. period

a ruger action weighs WHOPPING 6.5 oz less than a markX mauser..., and only 4.5 less than m70

that's LESS than the weight difference in scope bases and rings... or less than the difference in pad choice (limbsaver vs decellerator for example)

The ruger will make a rifle, using otherwise identical parts, within 1/2 a pound... and most big bores are GROSSLY overweight.. a 10# BARE 416 is a PIG (yes, I mean the RSM as a 416 is a PIG) and the 9.3# CZ is a bit heavy...

I would LOVE a 7.5 unscoped 416 ... but 8.5 would be more realistic.. 9.5 is overweight for a bare 416 at just 2400 ...

The choice of a suitable action is of no MATERIAL difference in building a bigbore.
jeffe

21 April 2008, 13:55

Bent Fossdal

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
OK Bent Fossel, I will bet you $25.00, a gentlemans bet that Ruger comes out with a .416 on the 375 Ruger case? and of course your are allowed to up the any if you wish!

Ray, there must be an misunderstanding here, and it is likely to be rooted in my inadequate english. Sorry.

I will not take your bet, as I am sure you are right. I also agree that it is a bit strange, mildly put, of Sundra to name a cartridge everybody is waiting for Ruger to release.

I think you write a lot of good stuff.
You have plenty of experimence, admits recoil-levels and all by all makes a lot of sence.
And then you out of the blue comes with statements like the one on the .400 H&H, that anybody thinking of building one should go to a shrink...even as a joke, it still made no sence...
How could it be any worse than any wildcat, of wich you have had numerous?

21 April 2008, 14:09

Bent Fossdal

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
"...fool's names, like fool's faces, are often seen in public places...".

I guess I should rename the 550 Gibbs the 550 RWK or something else equally egotistical or inane.

Rich

Hm, yes.....
Dont you think it would be a bit confusing, if every belted round should be called H&H?

Naming cartridges is also a fashion.
Some years ago, everybody put their names on.
Today, the vouge is anything but.
Oh, well.

21 April 2008, 18:11

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I mean this post to be in good humor, and merely contesting this weight issue, not picking a fight

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
The purpose of squeezing it to a 30-06 length action.
Dave

Okay, I'll, in good humor, throw the

the model 70, in 416 rem or 458 lott, is a LIGHTENED 30-06 action. period

a ruger action weighs WHOPPING 6.5 oz less than a markX mauser..., and only 4.5 less than m70

that's LESS than the weight difference in scope bases and rings... or less than the difference in pad choice (limbsaver vs decellerator for example)

The ruger will make a rifle, using otherwise identical parts, within 1/2 a pound... and most big bores are GROSSLY overweight.. a 10# BARE 416 is a PIG (yes, I mean the RSM as a 416 is a PIG) and the 9.3# CZ is a bit heavy...

I would LOVE a 7.5 unscoped 416 ... but 8.5 would be more realistic.. 9.5 is overweight for a bare 416 at just 2400 ...

The choice of a suitable action is of no MATERIAL difference in building a bigbore.
jeffe

Jeff:

I think on this one we are going to have to politely agree to disagree.

The Ruger Hawkeye weighs in at about 7 3/4 pounds. Frankly, I think that is to light for a .375 at 2500 fps and, in my view that is WAY, WAY to light for a 400 grain .416 bullet at 2400 fps. If Ruger is going to do this, then they would need to completely rethink the stock to add some weight and if they have to do that, what's the point. My Rigby sans scope weighs in at about 9 3/4 pounds and I think that is about perfect. However, far be it from me to dictate another man's rifle choice. If you want a 7 3/4 .416, then perhaps Ruger will oblige you.

Dave

21 April 2008, 19:30

Dave Bush

Jeff:

One other thought.

For many years, people struggled to find a good magnum length mauser action. Then along comes CZ and hopefully, in the very near future, Montana Rifle Company, and gives us an excellent magnum length action at a bargain basement price to build on and now, all you guys want to stuff your big bore cartridges into a 30-06 length action. What gives?

I'll conceed that powders have come a long way since cordite but there was a reason they made cartridges like the .416 Rigby so large and that was to keep pressures modest in the tropical heat in which they would be used and that reason still exists today. I don't care a bit about what guys like Terry Wieland say about the practicality of cartridges like the .458 Lott. I'll take a .450 Dakata or a .450 Rigby over the Lott any time. Magnum action, more velocity at much lower pressure.

Dave

21 April 2008, 19:32

jeffeosso

Dave,
Ahh, that may be the point I wasn't hearing.. the ACTION weight is more or less than same as the model 70.. and I APPLAUD ruger for making a light 375 .... but that has no real bearing on how the weight of a 416 would be.

it's EASIER to add a little weight ...
but, think about this.
4 oz for scope rings
16oz for a low power scope
5 oz for the libmsaver vs ruger steelpad
that 1#9oz...

Let's works backwards from 9#12 (cz)
-9oz
9# 3oz

then -1# for scope
8#3oz

then somewhere between 7#8oz and 8#3oz would be the perfect starting weight for a SCOPED 416 to make the "perfect" weight for a 416 ...

And, considering that it would burn 20grains less powder, I would start that less it bertter

21 April 2008, 20:01

jeffeosso

Dave,
I agree, to a point ... low pressure means sub 44Kcup ... or about 50K PSI ...

a legacy when powders were VERY heat senstive, and steel VERY unknown ... neither of which are (to me) very relevant today. I don't like pushing more than 60K psi, or about 53K cup..

But here's the pisser...
the 375 HH is 55K cup... or 62,300ish PSI.

Lowpressure isn't really what people sometimes think it is...

as for me making my wildcats fit stardard LENGTH actions... that'S based on the number of "standard" vs long vs magnum acitons... i doubt 1% of rifles will handle the full length rigby cases... and so, outside of CZ, there is no affordable action ON THE MARKET (that's the critical bit) today
jeffe

21 April 2008, 20:21

Dave Bush

Jeff:

Montana Rifle Company has a pre-production offer of a full length magnum action with a .805 diameter bolt for $625!!! I have seen their .375 length action and it is pretty decent. My friend just had a .375 H&H built up for his wife and it is a real shooter. They are much like a Model 70 action. The will come in right or left hand, stainless or chrome moly. It these things turn out to be any good, this is a STEAL. Do yourself a favor and buy two and build yourself a Gibbs. Mine will be a .450 Dakota. In six months you will be throwing those stubby little cartirdges in the Rio Grande

Dave

21 April 2008, 21:00

jeffeosso

LOL...

Dave, I have been waiting since 2004 for the PH action to be in production. .. I think I was like number 5 or 11 to order one... the thign is, UNTIL ITS IN PRODUCTION, its vaporware. Just like the baikal/remington 45/70 double rifle ... until its available, its just a sighting...

21 April 2008, 21:43

Atkinson

Bent Fossel,
As I said before in a previous post, you make a good point, I did contradict myself without realizing it. I justified this by saying with my choice of a wildcat, it would become a factory caliber in time!! Thats all I can think of to justify my statement!

21 April 2008, 21:48

Atkinson

Dave Bush,
I don't know what model they will use for the .416 Ruger, maybe just put a heavier barrel on any one of the existing models, If it will work with the .375 Ruger it seems to me it would make a nice .416 Ruger..who knows! They have a world of options including its own model, such as a short action Safari model..I would opt for the trim littel .416 Ruger over the bulky .416 Rigby..I always figured if I have to have that heavy big action and barrel then I don't want a .416 Rigby, I would then choose a 500 Jefferys, 505 Gibbs, why waste a big action...

22 April 2008, 01:05

Dave Bush

Ray:

I understand your point and I respect and value your opinion no matter how wrong and misguided it is

Dave

22 April 2008, 01:16

Idaho Sharpshooter

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

22 April 2008, 02:29

Dave Bush

Rich:

I am sorry. I couldn't resist. It was the two martini lunch!

Dave

23 April 2008, 12:09

wombat

If the 416 Remington (which I have owned and replaced with a 416 Rigby) was supposed to have pressure problems reaching 2400 fps in the african heat how will a smaller capacity case fair?

23 April 2008, 13:06

Will

quote:
Originally posted by wombat:
If the 416 Remington (which I have owned and replaced with a 416 Rigby) was supposed to have pressure problems reaching 2400 fps in the african heat how will a smaller capacity case fair?

The 416 Rem. "problems" are just fiction. Nothing wrong with any of the 416's. And my 416 Taylor weighs but 7.5 lbs. naked. But then so does my 458 WM.

Most anything "new" these days is about marketing and getting Sundra-types to write how amazing the "new" cartrdge is, and to get arguments going on the forums.

I'm waiting for the 416 WSSSSSSSSM myself. It will be just super amazing.

-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
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