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What is the fastest and best that can be had from the .404 Jeffery? I am thinking of a modern rifle with modern steel, modern bullets and modern powder. None of this old-fashioned, 20th century stuff.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | ||
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What length bbl? Mine is 24" but I have no brass or bullets and can give no info on speed. I am re-doing the stock right now and trying to get a trigger for it. I hope this interest in 404 isn't like the interest in 416 in '89 cuz I thought I had a gun nobody up here would have for a long long time. I know of three 416's in town, besides my Rigby, in a population of 6500 or so, and probably more I don't know of. Oh well just means I have to buy another gun then. WOODY Everyone is allowed an opinion, even if its wrong. | |||
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Mike, contact ray Atkinson. He runs them with 26" barrels and I believe he tells it that he can get about 2600 fps with a 400 grainer. Ouch! | |||
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soft - GSHV, 320gr, 2700fps solid - GSFN, 387gr, 2400fps P.S.: soft - KJG, 277gr, 2950fps | |||
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its case capacity is about 10% larger than the 416 remington . so 2-3% faster than the 416 rem, at 63KPSI -- which, frankly, isn't what it is. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Why would you want to boost it up when it has a wonderful history and reputation at 2125-2150? Does getting beat up by recoil make the experience more satisfying? Seriously, what are you gaining? I know it's your rifle and you can do whatever you'd like to do with the loads, but you already a great round just like it is. I suppose we need a 404J Whby Mag. Macifeg, help me out here with a case drawing for the next great killer the 404JW-KATWFALWO. Just fun'n guys!  Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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While there is reality and then there is Ray-ality, I think in this case Ray wasn't as far off as usual. The 416 Dakota uses a Jeffery case blown out with a 400 grain at 2450-2500fps, so the original, smaller case with the .423 bullet and less bearing surface should be about a wash. Give it a couple extra inches of barrel and you are getting pretty close. "There always seems to be a big market for making the clear, complex." | |||
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I was able to reach 2500fps from a 26" barrel with either mine or Woodleigh bullets. That was two different versions of 4831 (IMR wouldn't fit with mine). My system registered 55,000psi. In any case, the test rifle's action did not have an extraction system. Extraction was tipping the barrel up to 45 degrees and smacking the rifle with the heel of my hand and the case fell out. That was still a little ways from max for that rifle but it was certainly the max for my shoulder. | |||
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Totally agree Rusty - why bother experimenting with a crusty ol dinosaur cartridge from the Neandergun era. I couldn't help you on that drawing - too small for me - I only do stuff with ove 250 grains powder capacity. That .404 is a varmint round...now you wanna translate "KATWFALWO" ..?? Too much work for me. | |||
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"Kill Anything That Walks From A Long Ways Off! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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So did I miss something or is there a problem with the ole .404Jeffery chambering the way it is? Isn't that why they came out with the .500 Jeffery? Just messing around here, cause I like them big. Rodney. | |||
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For that you'd best have a custom made R93 knock-off chambered in .378 ... Hmmm...another project ... | |||
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Thanks for the answers, gentlemen. It would appear that a 380-400 grain bullet in the .404 can be pushed to around 2,500 fps, plus or minus. Rusty, to address your questions, I don't own a .404 Jeffery rifle. I am considering whether I want to put one together. But let's face it, the cartridge that Jeffery created a hundred years ago is pretty anemic by today's standards. As I understand it, Jeffery's goal was to replicate .450/.400 Nitro Express ballistics in a rimless cartridge suitable for use in magazine rifles. He managed to do that pretty handily. But today we can do much better with the Jeffery case - much more velocity is possible. And with well-constructed modern bullets, more velocity is better. All else being equal, it makes for a quicker kill on many African game animals - including lion and buffalo. Call it the "incapacitation factor." I have seen it in play enough times to know that it's real. And honestly, the recoil will not bother me at all. I am used to absorbing over 100 ft.-lbs. per shot! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have one on a 1999 MRC action.....beautuful wood and 1/4 rib and barrel band...PM me if you're interested! I might sell! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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FYI, I DID get "the load" in the case with very minimal compression (did use a drop tube though) but I was also loading just under the limit for a magnum length (3.6") action, not a stretched 98 or similar. Still came up 150fps short of what had been mentioned. | |||
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I had a 416 Weatherby Magnum for a while. It was too much of a good thing. It was the kind of rifle you had to be ready for before shooting. I have shot a bunch of stuff with my 450/400. I never felt it was short on power, near as I could tell the animals did not feel it was short on power either. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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What 450 NO 2 said is good for me. I do like them big the rifles being said, but I have a special respect for the classics and the time served if you will for these great cartridges. Rodney. | |||
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What is often lost sight of is that a 400gn bullet at 2300fps (RWS) has worked for 100 years. It is not anemic when used for its intended purpose. 78gn 0f ADI2208 (Varget) gets me 2350fps but 84gn ADI2209 (H4350) at 2300fps has shot into .603 at 55 yds ( bench and aperture sight) Recoil is mild in a 9 1/2 lb rifle and this would work out as far as I could want to shoot. I think there are those who chase velocity for its own sake and the bragging rights rather than any NEED for the extra. I have room in my Norma and RWS cases for 95gn of both the above mentioned powders but wth the performance I am getting at thse load levels there is no practical need for more. If I wanted to use it for large PG past where my aperture sighting is efective I would load a GS Custom 320gn HV bullet at 2500-2600fps and have at it. If the intended use is DG then what has always worked will always work. Bullet structure becomes more of a concern as velocity goes past their design paremeters. Von Gruff. | |||
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MR, Next time you get down to Houston, give me a shout. I'll let ya shoot my 404 Jeffery. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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If you want a hot rod....get a 416 Weatherby! I like my 404 at about 2290 with 400 grainers....knocks the pi$$ of of whatever you hit with it. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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His rifle is a HOOT to shoot! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The new Hornady 400 grain loads are supposed to do 2300fps, about the same as RWS. This seems like a good compromise for energy without too much recoil. Sounds like a good option for 80 bucks a box. BigB | |||
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Those 404 Jeffery +2300 fps loads with 400-grainers by RWS are not a century old. They were a more recent addition, 1950's or later? IDNR. The original loads were of course, 2125-2150 fps with 400-grainers in a 24" barrel. I do recall all the hullabaloo over Ray A.'s signature "404 Jeffries" load. Ray has eloped this site. Glad ALF has not. I think my loads with Varget Extreme go from 50K to 60K psi, pressures being directly proportional to velocity and inversely proportion to bullet weight, as follows, in a 24-inch barreled M70, with 1:10" TWIST: 400gr @ 2400 fps 380gr @ 2525 fps 340gr @ 2700 fps 320gr @ 2800 fps The 320-grain load is the "African Sheep Rifle" load that would make Mr. Chadwick, of Stone Sheep Fame, green with envy. | |||
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I read a history of the 404 and if I remember right the original 2150 load was not impressing anyone. It was not until the 2300fps loading from RWS came out that this round really shone. And now 100 years later we are trying to get another 100-200 fps out of it. Not too shabby. I will aim for the 2300 with 400grs in mine as I have a Rigby and have taken that up to the limit if I need it. No need to make the smaller case work so hard. I can always get some 450gr bullets if the moose up here start wearing kevlar. WOODY Everyone is allowed an opinion, even if its wrong. | |||
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Let me be a pain in the arse with a stupid, really STUPID question and assuming a modern action and new steel... not vintage rifle. Using CIP specs ... the mean proof pressure for a 404Jeffery is 4560 bar (PE figure). The 300RUM has a maximum rating (PK figure) of 5152 bar and an average of 4480 bar. The 375RUM has a working average at 4400bar with upto 15% greater acceptable. What will the 404Jeffery do at 4480 bar pressures like its step-children? Cheers... Con | |||
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If you will look back into History in the heyday of Ivory Poaching, and at the height of British Sortsmen in Africa you will find that the 450/400 with a 400gr bullet at @2050 out the muzzle of the hunting doubles in the field were highly regarded. Also consider the fact that many of the 450/400 3" Jeffery doubles were proofed and regulated with the Tropical Load of 55 gr of Cordite, instead of 60gr. The velocity of these loads was no doubt less. No one complained of its performance either, at least not in any of the literature I have read. Increasing the velocity of a 40 cal 400gr bullet flattens trajectory, and increases recoil, nether which is need for tyical African hunting. And do not go there about lions needing more velocity, I have shot lion with my 450/400 3 1/4". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Sorry, but that is just wrong-headed. The original .404 Jeffery loading was marginal then and is still marginal today - and the tropical loading was even more so. And I am not talking about elephant only. Elephant hunting requires penetration with solid bullets. I am talking about more than that. More velocity, at least up to 2,500 fps or so, is definitely better for lesser animals, such as lion and buffalo. (IMHO, it's better for elephant too, but let's not complicate things by introducing that question into the discussion.) No one with real experience with big, heavy bullets at 2,150 fps vs. the same at 2,500 fps will brook any debate on that subject. As an example, who does not understand and accept the superiority of the .416 Rigby as compared with the .404 Jeffery? No question about it. And I did not ask whether the original loading will suffice for killing purposes. Of course it will. The question is - can it be improved? And the answer is yes. Because one burdens himself with a double rifle and is forced to settle for its pressure and velocity limitations is no reason for another to bear the same burden when using a modern bolt rifle. Ask a simple ballistics question and what do you get? An irrelevant debate about history.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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MR, Of course you are right. Hence the "African Sheep Rifle."  PoppaW, What is the date of the RWS +2300 fps 400-grainer load? Hmmm? I don't think it was 1909. Con, CIP Max average operating pressure for the 404 Jeffery is PTmax = 3650 bar = 52,925 psi PE = mean proof pressure = 4560 bar = 66,120 psi Yes, proof pressure is 1.25 x PTmax. The brass won't stand anymore than one firing, even if the rifle will. PK is 1.15 times the PTmax, supposed to represent the maximum statistical individual pressure of the standard ammo. So you are mixing apples, oranges, and grapefruit here: normal loads, extreme loads, and proof loads. Maybe the PK of the 404 Jeffery would be a permissible PTmax for the "404 Magnum?" PK of 404 Jeffery = 4198 bar = 60,871 psi Handloading will keep the pressure spread minimal around this new 404 Magnum-PTmax. Make that the PTmax for the modern 404 Jeffery: See my Varget loads above for conforming loads. Thanks to the Aussie powder. No one taking the TWIST debate bait? | |||
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RIP, Yes I know I'm making fruit salad with the numbers!! But the point is that many actions/cartridges are running mean pressures well above the 404Jeffery's CIP standard. Its evil step-children such as the 300RUM and 375RUM for example ... and heaven forbid ... dont look at the 8mmRemMag whose PTmax is 4600 bar!!The brass may be an issue, but you could always use reformed RUM brass!! So the question remains ... if run at 4400 bar (63k psi) which is a pressure considered safe in many modern firearms and their ammunition ... what can a 404Jeffery theoretically do speed wise?Cheers... Con | |||
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Thanks, Rusty.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Then why use the small bore 40cal.   Just go to the 460 Wby, or maybe the 577 T-Rex.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Give it up LexMaster Mike ...get a Rigby or a Weatherby and call it done. Unless, of course, you can't handle a proper banger .....  PS - I think you have to wear Edwardian Duds to shoot Rusty's rifles ..... | |||
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You seem intent upon answering questions that are not asked. Hard to figure, but knock yourself out.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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And what exactly is added by these comments? Nothing useful, I'm afraid. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The highest velocity loads I have seen for the 416 Rigby are: 400gr Barnes XFB, 98gr of H4350 for 2599fps. With the Barnes 400gr XLC, 106.5gr of RL 22, for 2673fps. These are MAX loads. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Mike - seems that guys are telling you that you can't polish a turd or turn a sows ear into a silk purse. RIP pretty much laid out the math for you. If you feel the need to own a .400 or so bore with some ooomph - the .404 Jeffers ain't it - it's all tapped out. Love it for what it is like Herr Oberst Rusty... | |||
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The highest velocity loads I show for the 404 Jeffery: 400gr bullet 88gr of WW748 for 2522fps. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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MR I may have another book with additional 404 load data, but it is still packed away. I would thing a slower powder than 748 would give you higher velocity. Maybe IMR 4350. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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RIP I didn't intend my post to insinuate that RWS came out with the 2300 load in 1909. I read somewhere, and I am looking, that the popularity of the 404 jumped when that load came out. It makes sense to me. It would still be mild compared to a Rigby load, 410gr @ 2350ish. I found one reference to the 404 from WM Oberndorf but it reads like most. Duplicating the 450/400 etc. Maybe the other info I had was wrong??? I am new to the 404 scene and searching. WOODY Everyone is allowed an opinion, even if its wrong. | |||
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