quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Because one burdens himself with a double rifle and is forced to settle for its pressure and velocity limitations is no reason for another to bear the same burden when using a modern bolt rifle.

Ask a simple ballistics question and what do you get? An irrelevant debate about history.

A cross/burden I gladly bear.

To each his own and you need to shoot what you want to shoot.

I had my 404 Jeffery made because I owned a 450/400 3 inch aka 400 Jeffery. Ballistics be Damned! I wanted a bit of history! I wanted to romance the round. I did just that.

I shoot a 450/400 3inch because I've become a recoil wuss in my old age! It's the reason I don't have a 470, or own a (dirty bras'n frack'n beats the crap out of me everytime I pull the triggers) 500 NE. As it turns out the 400 Jeffery happens to do a great job as a dangerous game round. The 404 Jeffery at historical velocities fits those requirements for me as well.

History is only irrelevant if you don't care about it.

Just my opine!

Hey, Rusty, I'm with you on history. Please don't get me wrong.

My comment that history is irrelevant was not meant as a general or universal remark, but was intended to refer only to my question. Which was: How much steam can we get from the .404?

Since the .416s already do about all that a souped up .404 might accomplish - I don't see that souping up the .404 makes much sense. Unless one has his heart dead set on having a .404 and getting the most out of it.

I don't.

N E 450 No2, thanks for those load references.

Just to quote John Taylor:

"Experience show ust that 4000 foot-pounds can safely be taken against any game anywhere."

But as Rusty says, To each his own.
If one want to make the 404 into a 5000+ lb/p rifle, just do it.

Those 404 Jeffery at 2300 fps loads with 400-grainers. This load will kill everything. The 400-grainers at 2673fps. will not give you the additional effect on game that some think. It will have a defiant increase in recoil that will noticeably reduce your ability for accrete rapid follow up shots. If you feel the need for more energy or “incapacitation factor." on game you should move up in caliber.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Because one burdens himself with a double rifle and is forced to settle for its pressure and velocity limitations is no reason for another to bear the same burden when using a modern bolt rifle.

MR,

You are the perfect candidate for the 500/416 double rifle. 400grs @ 2300fps. And you elephant hunt.

JPK

Bill, you don't know me, or you would not feel the need to give such advice.

JPK, if I were to choose and use a DR for elephant, it would be chambered in .500 Nitro Express. But the .500/.416 Nitro Express would definitely be in the running - and might come in second.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Just to quote John Taylor:

"Experience show ust that 4000 foot-pounds can safely be taken against any game anywhere."

But as Rusty says, To each his own.
If one want to make the 404 into a 5000+ lb/p rifle, just do it.

Yes, Taylor said that, but he actually hunted elephants with a 465H&H or a 450NE for the great, ovewhelming number of his elephants, and he said that too, about a dozen times per book.

JPK

A friend of mine offered me a shot from his 416RIG and from which gave me a nice "Weatherby eye brow".
I was silly enough to shoot it again last time out.
I for one will be happy to set my up coming 404 at around the easier, tried and proven 2300fps velocity.

MR,

I wish I could help out in regards to your original question but have not actual experience with loading a 404. There are a few things that interest me about the 404.

I am sure you are very keen on all this...but my reasoning for a 404 goes along these lines.

1) Has a long history in the game fields...this is nice but not the primary reason for my interest.
2) The performance was adequate given "standard" loading for the round...nice be would it not be a bit better given todays powders and bullets @ a bit more velocity...
3)It can be had in a ligther, trimmer, ie easier to carrry all day rifle than a 416 Rigby, etc...

I am sure there are a few more good reasons to consider a 404 but to me the lighter, trimmer, and easier to carry rifle that can readily push the best 400 grain bullets from 2150 to 2500 fps that's what I was and am after....

I love hunting Africa and my experiences have all been great about the only thing I want or would change is carrying a 10.5 lbs+ rifle all day...in the alternative, the 404 would make a great back up to a real heavy...adding a bit more range capability.

For awhile now I have had an interest in the 404, attempted to have one built...long story with no happy ending. Eventually, I will end up with a 404...looking now just need to find the right one.

Best,

jjs

quote:

Originally posted by PoppaW:
I read a history of the 404 and if I remember right the original 2150 load was not impressing anyone. It was not until the 2300fps loading from RWS came out that this round really shone. And now 100 years later we are trying to get another 100-200 fps out of it. Not too shabby. I will aim for the 2300 with 400grs in mine as I have a Rigby and have taken that up to the limit if I need it. No need to make the smaller case work so hard. I can always get some 450gr bullets if the moose up here start wearing kevlar.

I run 380-400gr bullets @ 2200fps+ & find they are very effective on any game animal I have shot including a couple of one shot buffalo kills. You can certainly squeeze 2400fps from a 23"bbl. but recoil then feels like 458winmag, 500gr @ 2100fps. Kind of defeats the purpose of a lighter more manageable big bore rifle IMO. I have also gotten 340grNFs to 2600fps, again, recoil starts to get annoying.

jjs - I was thinking the same way.

I knew that the capacity of the .404 case fell somewhere between the H&H and the Rigby and wondered if the .404 might be be cranked up to get a more "magnum" velocity, maybe even with a heavier bullet, say of 450 grains weight or so.

That would make it lighter and handier than a true big bore but nearly as powerful.

But it seems that about the most one can expect from hopping up the .404 is to match .416 Rigby or Rem. Mag. ballistics (plus or minus). So, why bother? After all, a .416 Rem. Mag. can be made as small and light as a .404.

.

Norma offers a 404; 450 gr loading @ 2150 fps in their African PH line.
Sounds like a nice potent close range load.
It is pricey ammo and not sure whos projectiles they use; perhaps Woodleigh? They offer softs and solids.

EZ

PoppaW,
There you go.
This is the second time I have read this from ALF, won't forget it next time:

In 1972 RWS hot loads for the 404 Jeffery arrived.

These have been reported to give about 2350 fps fronm a 24" barrel.

This must be close to the equivalent of the PTmax by CIP standards: 52,925 psi, or 3650 bar.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

I read a history of the 404 and if I remember right the original 2150 load was not impressing anyone. It was not until the 2300fps loading from RWS came out that this round really shone. And now 100 years later we are trying to get another 100-200 fps out of it. Not too shabby. I will aim for the 2300 with 400grs in mine as I have a Rigby and have taken that up to the limit if I need it. No need to make the smaller case work so hard. I can always get some 450gr bullets if the moose up here start wearing kevlar

Methinks a little bit of disinformation about the 404 ???????

RWS only took on 404 Production in 1972 well after the "golden era" of 404 use as an African cartridge !

From 1905 to 1926, that is 21 years the 404 as strictly a Cordite driven cartridge and then in 1926 we see DWM loading it with flake Nitro. Kynoch follows suite but retains the "anemic" loads until it's demise in the 70's. So in effect the 404 built it's reputation, 67 years in all on the "unacceptbale to the American gun psyche" lowly velocity and energy numbers.

One can but wonder why then this need for speed when the 404 does just fine as it was originally designed.

Well that straightens out the time line a bit. On a side note I ordered 400gr woodleighs today. Found 40 Norma brass and the same guy will get me dies. Soon I will hope to see for myself what all the hype was about. If I need a hotrod I have a Rigby and if that wont do it then I have a lead on a 378.

Been loading for the Rigby round as well as the Jeffery round for more than twenty years. In my earlier years, the only way to feed those cannons was to buy English and some German manufactured ammo. I didn't make much money then and often went to Champlin Arms and sifted through the buckets of ammo that often came with consignment guns and ended up in their "waste buckets". I was able to shoot and chronograph many of the loaded rounds. In my two rifles, a Champlin made 416 Rigby on Mauser action and the 404 on a Mauser action by C. Nelson. None of the factory rounds were close to their advertised velocities. NONE. Most were a least 100-200 f/s shy of the mark. The only ammo that came through as advertised was RWS in 404 Jeffery solids and they were running an average of 2370 out of my 24" barrel rifle while three different batches of 416 Rigby were shuffling along at 2228 f/s. Now all the literature says the rigby was so strong on game and they really meant the bullets used performed as designed and were totally trustworthy in that score. For the traditionalist there are a myriad of cartridge and cases to try that art totally suited to any game one would want to shoot. For the hot rods out there one could start with several permutations of the 50 BMG and have a lot of fun. Personally, I prefer the traditional easily transportable boring stuff that just seems to continue to get the job done.

Interesting, lb404.

I have read somewere that all english stated velocity's were clocked from 28" barrels?

ALF, .400NE, or anyone?

lb404. that is realy interesting. It is true to note that before the days of common chronno usage the listed 'performance'was often taken in very long barrels, This did not (in most cases) detract from the field capability. As has been said what has worked for so many years will continue to work. That dose not take away from those like mrlexma who would search for performance gains. While I like the historical aspect of the 404 and am more than content with its 2300fps from my 9 1/2 lb Mauser I would also like to know the safe obtainable gains to be made with modern powders. Woodleigh has 450gn component softs which would be a usefull power increase if sent off to work at 2150 as in the Norma PH ammo.

Von Gruff.

I can guarantee you that the animals hunted in 1909 with the .404 Jeffery did not get any tougher in 2009. It killed them dead then, it will kill them dead now.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Thanks for the answers, gentlemen. It would appear that a 380-400 grain bullet in the .404 can be pushed to around 2,500 fps, plus or minus.

Rusty, to address your questions, I don't own a .404 Jeffery rifle. I am considering whether I want to put one together.

But let's face it, the cartridge that Jeffery created a hundred years ago is pretty anemic by today's standards. As I understand it, Jeffery's goal was to replicate .450/.400 Nitro Express ballistics in a rimless cartridge suitable for use in magazine rifles. He managed to do that pretty handily.

But today we can do much better with the Jeffery case - much more velocity is possible.

And with well-constructed modern bullets, more velocity is better. All else being equal, it makes for a quicker kill on many African game animals - including lion and buffalo.

Call it the "incapacitation factor." I have seen it in play enough times to know that it's real.

And honestly, the recoil will not bother me at all. I am used to absorbing over 100 ft.-lbs. per shot!

How badly would the old ammo degrade and how much speed would you loose from it being so old. With the RWS being the newest of the bunch it would make sense it is closest to advertised. I don't have any ammo old enough to test my theory.

I own a stunning custom made Mod 70 in 416 Remington (made for me) that shoots great.
For some reason I always have wanted a 404. It will not do a damn thing the 416 will not do.
I guess it is a piece of history like my 470 Nitro.
Perhaps a Empire or a AHR Custom is in the future.

The factory info I have is from ICI, 1926.

404 Rimless Nitro-Express, 60gr Cordite, 400gr bullet, 28" barrel, 16 TPI, 2125fps.

300gr bullet, 70gr Cordite, 16 TPI, 2625 fps.

Woody,

With regard to old ammo. I cannot say much for rifle fodder but I had some old 12 gauge duck rounds that my father had back in the 30's. They do degrade! Sometimes the wads/cushion do not clear the barrel "yikes".

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Bill, you don't know me, or you would not feel the need to give such advice.

I am quite sure that knowing you would not change my opinion or advise. I realize you are implying that you know to use enough gun. What is being under stated is you can build a nice 404 in a 8 to 8.5 pound rifle that is quite shotable with the 2200-2300fps loads, easy to carry, will kill everything but will kick the snot out of you with 2650 loads. I now expect JPK to tell me 8 to 8.5 pound rifle is to heavy.
Bill

The testing I did was 25 years ago. Some of the rounds were probably made in the 1960-75 time frame, about 10-15 years old. Regardless, that was all that was available at the time and the chronograph results were for the available ammo at that time. The original testing for those rounds was done from 28" barrels which is why one often sees English made heavy rifles with incredibly long tubes. Much longer than many of us would want to carry today.

The thrust of the discussion is that regardless of what we may do to "improve" some of the African calibers, they are more than adequate to their task as they were issued. If you want to tweak it a bit do so, it just isn't necessary to do so.IMHO

Maybe I should have provided a better explanation.

I measure every other cartridge against my current elephant, hippo and Cape buffalo caliber of choice. That is a .500 A-Square firing 570 grain Barnes Banded Solids and TSX expanding bullets at 2,500 fps.

What this round will do against heavy game has to be seen to be appreciated. I have used lesser calibers on DG, and the difference between those and the .500 is pretty stark.

The .500 incapacitates and kills much more quickly. (Good shot placement is of course a given. No substitute for that, and no need to go down that road.)

So, my approach may be a bit skewed in favor of seeking "more than enough" power from any given cartridge and rifle combination, rather than settling for merely "enough" or "adequate" or "sufficient" power.

And IMHO, there are just a couple of rules to follow in choosing a "more than enough" cartridge and rifle for DG hunting, and especially big, thick-skinned DG hunting.

IMHO, there is no doubt that bigger is better. And bigger and faster - up to the maximum velocity that our best bullets can reliably handle - are even better yet.

Availability of brass and bullets and rifle weight and portability are the limiting factors. The .500 A-Square is easy to feed, and carrying and shooting it effectively are no problem for me - now.

But we all get older (if we are lucky), and I am thinking of the future. Hence my question concerning the .404.

Unfortunately, it turns out that the .404 can, at best, be made into the ballistic equivalent of the .416 Rigby or Rem. Mag. No appreciable difference. So why not stick with the .416 Rem. Mag., which can be made up into as small a package as any .404?

I think that, when the .500 becomes too much for me, I will probably drop down to the .458 Lott. Then, if ever I should live so long that the .458 Lott is too much, I will likely drop down to the .416 Rem. Mag.

And finally, when the .416 Rem. Mag. begins to bruise my brittle bones, just before I breathe my last bit of African air, I may settle for the .404 Jeffery.

Doesn't anyone but me ever plan ahead?

Plan ahead??? Yes, that is why I have 450 No2, 450/400 3 1/4", and 9,3x74R Doubles.

All 3 have proven theirselves on cape buff and elephant.

Good answer for one willing to accept the pressure and velocity limitations of a double rifle.

If I were similarly willing to handicap myself, my choices would probably be:

1. .500 3" NE
2. .500/.416 NE
3. .450/.400 3" NE.

Well, the 404 Jeff can't be turned into a 500 a-square. I'm glad that you cleared that up. Frankly it's been keeping me up at night. Now I only have to worry about my 7x57 being able to equal my 375 H&H.

What can the 404J be made into? A caliber that can, and has, taken any animal that you might come across in Africa. And it has done that at the original loading. Does that make it the equal of the 500 a-square? Yes in the context that a properly placed shot from either will kill whatever it is you are aiming at. No in the context that it fires a smaller projectile perhaps at a lower speed accompanied by less recoil.
If you like bigger, faster, and harder go for it. Enjoy your 500. Personally I would feel well armed with a 404.

TerryR, please do try to get more sleep.

It may improve your reading comprehension skills.